EOTech Expectations

[Boba Debt 350]

I have Eotech 512s on my PTR-91s. I took them to the range today and dialed them in.

 

I started at 25 yard and was easily able to shot sub 1" five round groups.

 

Then I went out to 100 yards and I couldn’t really see anything on the target so I just centered the dot on the paper and shot. I could hit the 8" target but I couldn’t get any good groups.

 

So I dropped back to the 50 yard line and was able to get good 10 round groups.

 

I really wanted to be able to use this out to 200 yards without a magnifier

 

I can probably do as good as I shot today with the iron sights

 

 

 

So my question is are my expectations for the EOtech to high?

 

In other words, did it do what it was supposed to do or do I just suck?

Edited June 18, 2011 by Boba Debt

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Too high, it did what it is supposed to do... & you may suck a bit too

 

A large MOA dot doesn't leave much room for precision.

100-300 yards, put the dot on the human and you get hits, that is all that counts in combat, not groups.

Edited June 18, 2011 by ChileRelleno

[BobAsh 582]

It's about as accurate as iron sights in my experience.

 

You can try turning the brightness down to shrink the dot.

[Arik 565]

Edited June 19, 2011 by Arik

[uriahmenchaca 2]

Sent a pm but will give my feedback here in case others are interested. I have not used the Eotech 512 in long range applications I have poor eye site and cant hit anything at long range unmagnified. The 512 excels in multiple target tactical type applications as you do not need to close an eye to get a good aim. I use the 512 on an m4 and set up various targets at various ranges trying to recreate tactical type situations and it does extremely well in that area. That and the fact the thing is so rugged is why I like the 512.

[Boba Debt 350]

Thanks for all the info so far, I'm a bit relieved to know that the scope was doing what it was supposed to do.

 

Now I have to decide if I want to get magnifier for the EoTechs, or just get some scopes.

 

I would like to be able to hit out to 600 yards with these rifles and I have been looking at these scopes

 

http://www.valdada.com/product/b82024e1-4234-4464-99ac-97e033c4c595.aspx

 

 

 

 

 

Are they any good?

 

 

 

 

 

I found a site that sells one with a 308 BDC cam for a 168gr projectile but I have noticed that most NATO surplus is 147gr.

 

How much would the lighter round affect the accuracy of the BDC

 

 

 

If these scopes are not the best for my rifle, does anyone have any recommendations for another?

Edited June 19, 2011 by Boba Debt

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

Are you wanting to print groups or a man sized target at 600 yards? You will need good glass for clarity with a higher magnification scope. Obviously field of view isn't going to bother you if your shooting with higher power optics; however, remember that field of view shrinks for every increase in magnification power. Shop a lot and buy once. You can easilly put as muchin your scope as your rifle even on higher dollar rifles.

 

1911

Edited June 19, 2011 by 1911

[Garys4598 1,065]

Ya know Boba Debt. . . I found myself wondering why the heck you put EOTech 512s on your PTR91 rifles when I first read your other forum thread. By that I mean, red dots are kinda designed for CQB and rapid eye acquisition . . . using them on a .308 battle rifle as primary sights, kinda defeats the range capabilities of that caliber rifle. Just my opinion though.

 

That VALDADA scope at 4x24 (4 power magnification), although an improvement over the EOTech, still is not going to come remotely close to what you seem to want to achieve (providing I am understanding you correctly). You stated you wanted your PTR91 rifle(s) to be capable of engaging target out to 600 yards, then you're going to want a hellva lot more magnification than 4x.

 

Although the caliber you have is good for that distance. . . fully capitalizing on that capability is a bridge too far IMHO, unless you are willing to spend $$$ on glass that will likely cost almost twice what you paid for your rifle. You should have gone with the PTR91 with the 18" barrel (vice the 16").

 

Good luck!!!!

.

.

.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Gary

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

Ya want a good tactical scope.

And you want something either in a fixed 10 power, or a variable in the 2-20 power range.

Recommend Mil-Dot reticle, first focal plane, 1/4 MOA adjustments.

 

The IOR Valdada scopes are A1, excellent quality, especially for their price ranges.

 

I also would suggest,

Vortex Viper PST & Vortex Razor, Vortex are awesome, great quality for the price and their CS/warranty is unbeatable.

SWFA SS, SWFA's private label, they too have great CS and prices, and their line of SS scopes are extremely well regarded... And low priced.

 

If anyone is looking for frikkin great deals on used/dealer sample glass, check SWFA's Sample lists.

All makes/models available at good discounts.

 

 

ETA: Links removed as Copes Dist sells scopes.

Edited June 19, 2011 by ChileRelleno

[Boba Debt 350]

This is all good info so far and I appreciate the input.

 

Sorry for this really long post but I think it might help explain what I expected from the EoTechs and what I want to be able to do with these rifles.

 

 

 

 

Are you wanting to print groups or a man sized target at 600 yards?

 

I'm not really interested in shooting groups past 200 yards with these rifles and the only reason I would shoot groups at 200 yards would be to dial in my optics and occasionally confirm that I can still shoot them with the rifle and optic. Once I know I can shoot good groups at the 200, I just want to be able to hit a B-Mod steel target at the rest of the yard lines up to 600 yards

 

 

That VALDADA scope at 4x24 (4 power magnification), although an improvement over the EOTech, still is not going to come remotely close to what you seem to want to achieve (providing I am understanding you correctly).

 

Well if this Valdada scope can help me shoot tight groups at the 200 yard line and then enable me to hit the B-Mod target out to 600 yards I'll buy it.

 

These PTRs are not going to be my long distance accuracy rifles. These are my long distance "plinking" rifles. So in that respect, my glass should not cost more then the rifle. These rifles have a retail cost of $1500 so these Valdada scopes seem to be just the right for what I want to do with these rifles.

 

 

If I end up loving the PTRs I'm going to buy a PTR MSG91SS, as long as I can talk them into replacing the 20" barrel with a 24" barrel. It will be my long distance accuracy rifle and I'll use it to shoot groups out to 800 yards. For that rifle I'll be more then willing to spend $2k on a scope.

 

 

 

 

Ya know Boba Debt. . . I found myself wondering why the heck you put EOTech 512s on your PTR91 rifles when I first read your other forum thread.

 

I wanted a scope that would work close up and at 200-600 yards on B-Mod targets. For longer distances I planned on adding a magnifier to the 512, but did not want to need one for less then 300 and definitely did not want to need one to dial in the scope at 100 yards.

 

I figured if I could get the EoTechs dialed in at 200 yards it would just be a matter of determining the correct hold over for the rest of the yard lines.

 

When I shot at the 25 yard line I was extremely amazed at how easy it was to get such a tight group and it made adjusting the EoTechs easy.

 

But when I got out to the 100 yard line I couldn’t get any consistency. I was shooting at a range target that was like an Able target but had an 8 black circle in the center. I put an orange 3" sticker target in the center of that to help me with my POA. I know that 308 rises about 1.5 inches at 100 yards so I would put the dot on the bottom of the bright orange 3" sticker Every shot was on the 8" black part of the target but they were all over it. Some high, some low, some to the right and some to the left. I shot 40 rounds with both rifles and got the same results. If I could have put 2-3 shots in the same place, I could have made adjustments on the scope but every shoot was different.

 

So it has to be one of 4 things

 

1 - I suck. This might be it but I was a very good long distance shooter in the Corps with iron sights. I was taking very good shots and the dot always seemed to be in the right place when the rifle fired.

 

2 - The ammo. At the 25 yard line I was shooting Magtech commercial 308. By this time I was shooting at the 100 it was all NATO surplus, a combination of South African and Privi. Is it that inconsistent at 100 yards? This doesn’t really make sense because I once I dropped back to the 50 I got good groups again, unless 308 ammo stays tight for 50 yards and then suddenly opens up by the 100.

 

3 - The condition of the rifles. Could it have been that the rifles were too dirty? Once again this doesn’t make sense because I got good groups at the 50 yard line with dirtier rifles.

 

4 - The EoTechs. After reading everything posted I think I just expected too much from the EoTechs. Since I did so well at the 25, I thought I would do pretty good at the 100, which would make me feel very confident at the rest of the yard lines. But to me putting 20 rounds somewhere on an 8" target at 100 yards is not very inspiring.

 

 

So I guess I have 3 options

 

1 - I'll dial the EoTechs in at the 50, which seems to be the longest I can shoot tight groups with the Eotechs, then see how I do at the rest of the yard lines shooting at the B-Mod metal targets.

 

2 - Buy one 4x magnifier and dial them in at 200 yards

 

3 - Buy an optic in the $500 price range that can help me shoot groups at the 200 and hit B-Mod targets out to 600 yards.

Edited June 19, 2011 by Boba Debt

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

You'll be much happier with a good scope.

 

The right tool for the job.

[storm6490 2,768]

the magnifier doesn't really make it a scope. just extends it another 100 yards. like the other poster said... lower the intensity and it will reduce the flare on the led making your point smaller and more crisp. if you want the best of both worlds, this is your only option. http://www.elcansightingsystems.com/products/specs/SpecterDR15-6x.php

[Boba Debt 350]

I have decided to try both approaches.

 

I ordered a 3x magnifier for the EoTech on one of the PTRs and I'm going to order a Valdada M1 scope for the other.

[MT Predator 2,294]

[Boba Debt 350]

I think once get my magnifier I will be able to get a good 100 yard zero and then the scope will work for what I bought it for.

 

Here are the 10 round groups from the last round I fired.

 

Each group was shot from a different rifle in a continuous 10 round volly at 50 yards with no magnification.

 

The orange spotter is 3" in diameter.

 

 

 

 

Are these decent groups?

[Boba Debt 350]

I also found out today that Valdada does not import the M1 scope anymore

 

 

So I am looking for recommendations for a 3-4x power scope in the $500 price range

 

I would like to be able to use it for groups out to 200 yards and be able to hit a B-Mod out to 600

 

Bullet drop compensation would be nice but since I have 16" barrels I think that might be hard to find

[Boba Debt 350]

Anyone know anything about these scopes:

 

http://www.shepherdscopes.com/index.asp

 

They look interesting, might be nice to have one rifle set up with this and the other set up with an EoTech

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

You want more than fixed 3-4 power scope for out to 600 yards.

Really man, ya want either a fixed 10 or variable in 3-10, or 3-20(max).

 

Look at the Vortex Vipers HS, http://swfa. com/Vortex-4-16x50-Viper-HS-30mm-Rifle-Scope-P48284.aspx

Link purposefully broken

 

ETA: I know, I know, ya want the 4power so you can still do close in work, ya really need a variable to make the 500-600 mark with accuracy.

Edited June 20, 2011 by ChileRelleno

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

Perhaps you should have gotten a S-308, Boba. Then you could just buy a new POSP, (fixed or variable magnification, lots of options), and have $ left over.

 

Good luck in your search. I do agree with the other posters that you'll almost certainly want an optic with magnification >4x if you want to reliably hit targets at ~600 yrds.

Edited June 20, 2011 by post-apocalyptic

[GREYLUPO 358]

I think once get my magnifier I will be able to get a good 100 yard zero and then the scope will work for what I bought it for.

 

Here are the 10 round groups from the last round I fired.

 

Each group was shot from a different rifle in a continuous 10 round volly at 50 yards with no magnification.

 

The orange spotter is 3" in diameter.

 

 

 

 

Are these decent groups?

 

 

Id say those are pretty damn good.

 

I just sighted in some new troy micro battle sights on my SCAR 17 the other day at 50 yards. Heres a 10 round volly after I got them sighted. The first 4 rounds went through the same hole, the other 6 around the center but I picked up the speed .

 

Im also going to go with the EOtech EXPS and mag combo. I wanted an Elcan but cant afford the $2500 model I want.

Edited June 21, 2011 by GREYLUPO

[steveb327 13]

I haven't shot the Prvi yet, but the S. african is generally good stuff. If you were shooting the crappy indian or russian stuff, then you'd have your answer. I didn't see, but how does higher-quality factory stuff perform? Surplus, with some exceptions, are not tack-drivers, as you know.

 

Another thing I found with the 512, or any holo sight, was that I had been led to believe that parallax wouldn't exist. If you could see the red dot, you'd hit your target. Turns out that's crap! After reading an article recently (I can find it if you want) on parallax w/ red dots/holos, I tested it at the range. I moved my head off a proper sight line a little in a few directions, and the shots were off, regardless where the dot was. It was recommended to cowitness a front sight/BUIS to line things up properly. At 25 yards, probably not necessary. At 100, definitely. Don't know how I'd still be able to keep both eyes open w/ BUIS, but maybe I could train the brain.

 

I wish there were a few mil-dots or such on the 512, between the center and the outer circle. Would make hold-over more accurate. Other than that, it's a great sight. I prefer it for anything inside 150yds. The extra peripheral vision and ability to move w/ the target, better than a scope, outweighs the necessity to shoot fleas, IMO.

[Boba Debt 350]

[YARP 300]

I run IOR Valdadas 1.1-4x26 with M-series CQB reticle on my AR pistol. It will be more then capable of taking you out to 600 with a .308 although you'd be able to do more with a stronger powered scope. I've run the 1.1-4 on my RFB (this weekend) and was able to take it out to 300 with ease so 400 shouldn't be bad. For even better accuracy you could check out the 1.5-8x26 scope. I know there expensive but there worth every penny. If saving cash is the most important goal then find a Trijicon accupoint with Mil-Dot, used they come pretty cheap. If you intend to use it for CQB you can piggy back an RMR on it later, I've done this with a few FALS and it's worked well.

Last but not least. If this isn't to be used for close work check out Leatherwoods 2.5-10x44 no math mil-dot reticule scope, there around $400.00 and worth every penny. The glass is good, there ranging system works well and when all else fails you can run the scope out to 10x and use it like a fixed mil-dot. Unfortunately you can not piggy back an RMR to it due to its "auto ranging system".

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

I would say that your rifle and ammo choice is more of a limiting factor than the EOTech.

 

The EOTech has a 1 MOA dot, which means it is as precise as 1.04 inches at 100 yards if you do your part holding it steady. If you are getting 3-4 inch groups at 100 yards, it isn't the optic unless your optic is broken and not holding zero.

 

Remember that 25 yard group sizes need to be multiplied by 4 in order to extrapolate what your rifle would be doing at 100 yards.

 

If you are truly going for precision groups, try using 168 or 175 grain Federal Gold Medal Match, 168 grain Black Hills Match or M118LR instead of Magtech and ball surplus. Even 18 pound benchrest guns will not typically shoot sub-MOA groups with that stuff.

 

With good ammo, your PTR should be capable of 1-2 MOA. The EOTech or even open sights, are both capable of hitting man-sized targets with good ammo out to 600 yards if the shooter knows how to account for bullet drop and wind.

[MT Predator 2,294]

Those groups are what you should expect for the EO or an Aimpoint at that distance. On a human sized target at 100 yards, I'd say that's a kill. Remember what they are designed to be, quick acquisition combat sights, not precision scopes. Why not zero at 25 meters first to get your groups where they need to be according to your ballistics data, then move out to 100? Just a thought.

Also, pass on the Sheppard, they are kind of gimmicky. A friend of mine tried one and was very disappointed. From what I read, you are basically trying to build one into a DM rifle so you really don't need a very high powered optic. Nikon just came out with some scopes specifically for 5.56 NATO. Not sure if you can get them cammed for 7.62 NATO but they make nice glass for a good price. Or spend a little more on an ACOG which are great for DM rifles. Smart move setting each up a little different giving you more capabilities.

[Scott Kenny 144]

I found a site that sells one with a 308 BDC cam for a 168gr projectile but I have noticed that most NATO surplus is 147gr.

 

How much would the lighter round affect the accuracy of the BDC

 

Massively. The 168gr is a Sierra Match King bullet, which is one of the slickest bullets available in any caliber. Using a rough guess for the 147gr FMJ surplus, the SMK hits 12" higher at 600 (both rounds using 200yd zero and same MV), but inside 350 yards they're close (within 1.5"). At 400 yards, the SMK is 2.5" higher, 450 it's 4" higher, 500 it's 6" higher, and at 550 it's 9" higher. BDCs are really there for the long-range shots, since I can get an A-zone hit anywhere within 300m just by putting the crosshairs at center-mass with a .308.

 

You don't *need* a huge-power scope for 600 yards. I don't take my scope much above 14x, even though I have a 6.5-20x44, and I usually leave it down at 6.5x. A 3-9x40 might be a little light, but not by much. A 4-12x or a 2.5-10x would probably serve you well, especially with a 44mm or 50mm objective lens. In fact, I will probably put a 2.5-10 on my competition rifle (planning an AR in 6.5mm Grendel).