surplus vs. commercial ammo... a testimonial with a picture

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Military ammo ammo is designed to allow under 4MOA with a good rifle. Hunting ammo of course has a tighter spec so it should be more accurate. When looking at ammo you may want to remove any muzzle brake or flash hider if convenient to eliminate any influence on accuracy as I have learned the hard way.

 

I have some old targets from when I was fooling around with a Scout setup on a 16" converted.

Shot at @50 yards from a sandbag support, conditions perfect, I was even having a good day.

 

Remington Express PSP - My SD/ Hunting ammo, fine ammo if pricey. At 100 yards this ammo opens up the least of all Ive tested.

 

 

 

Golden Tiger FMJ which is what Ive stored for long term due to coating and accuracy. Ive noticed at 100 years this ammo opens up the least of all the steel. May be due to the boat tail.

 

 

 

Fiocchi FMJ Brass - Scope was removed and reattached to check for repeatability in the mount.

Keep some of this around if I want to reload.

 

 

 

Silver Bear FMJ

 

 

Don't have a pic but the Yugo runs about 3MOA @100 yds about 2MOA at 50 yds, Brown Bear about the same.

At 100 yards the groups on the above ammo open up with the Remington and GT coming out on top but that isn't the job this rifle has been assigned.

You want accuracy at range go 308.

 

So my needs are fairly well filled on this caliber with yugo for range/training, Remington for SD, and GT for cache.

Edited August 16, 2011 by Rhodes1968

[Red Star 38]

Fantastic stuff! thanks for posting

 

The golden tiger is the most impressive to me, ill be getting some of that

[Lone Eagle 839]

Don't know when I'll make it out next, but I have the following I could try in my Arsenal.

 

Uly 123gr FMJ

Wolf 123gr FMJ and 124gr HP

Winchester 124gr FMJ(have 20 rounds left from SKS sight in)

Silver Bear 125gr SP

Yugo M67 Ball

 

My Chicom SKS(20" barrel carbine) seems to like the Remington 123gr loads for hunting. I can keep a 1" group at 100 yds, and close to that with the Yugo in FMJ. Surplus ammo is what it is: something to go bang and toss lead downrange. However, it's better to have something that goes bang than a glorified war club, no?

[Red Star 38]

Don't know when I'll make it out next, but I have the following I could try in my Arsenal.

 

Uly 123gr FMJ

Wolf 123gr FMJ and 124gr HP

Winchester 124gr FMJ(have 20 rounds left from SKS sight in)

Silver Bear 125gr SP

Yugo M67 Ball

 

My Chicom SKS(20" barrel carbine) seems to like the Remington 123gr loads for hunting. I can keep a 1" group at 100 yds, and close to that with the Yugo in FMJ. Surplus ammo is what it is: something to go bang and toss lead downrange. However, it's better to have something that goes bang than a glorified war club, no?

 

 

sounds like a plan! just make sure to take photos of your results and post them here so we can all see I reckon after a couple of months we will have enough data to definitively say which ammo is tops.

 

 

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Well there will be some variation from one rifle to the next. Generalities serve well with this rifle.

GT is seen as among the best of the steel cased and yugo is good and cheaper. All the rest are fine so its not that big a difference.

 

Only matter of any real unknown is the brass SP and PSP which I just dont care to invest the bucks into testing, but will accept donations

[Ken1961 14]

Well, I just got the Saiga in. I've stocked up already on Some Monarch from Academy Sports. It's made in Barnaul, Russia. 123 gr fmj. Once I get to the range I'll let you know how it does.

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...Maybe, just maybe, we can see if there really is a marked ballistic difference between the two lengths

 

The "balanced" ammo you're looking for is Golden Tiger.

 

This chart doesn't cover a 20" barrel, but you might find it useful:

 

 

7.62x39's one of those rounds whose velocity, (and general effectiveness), isn't affected that much by barrel length, so at ~16.3", it's pretty much reached its potential.

Edited August 18, 2011 by post-apocalyptic

[Kellyc2215 3]

If you really want your weapon to shoot the best it can. You need to slug the barrel. You take a soft lead ball and push it through your barrel. Then you measure it.

7.62 can measure any where from .308 inch to .314 inch. After you know the exact size of your barrel. Lets say it .311 inch.

Then get a sample of various brands of ammo and measure it. You will find that it is also all over the map with size. Even the same box will give you different sizes.

If your barrel measures .311 find that brand that uses bullets that measure .312 Even then measure all the bullets. They will range from .311 to .313

Now you know the brand your weapon likes and you keep the .312's for your accuracy mags and load all the rest in your range mags.

[Red Star 38]

...Maybe, just maybe, we can see if there really is a marked ballistic difference between the two lengths

 

The "balanced" ammo you're looking for is Golden Tiger.

 

This chart doesn't cover a 20" barrel, but you might find it useful:

 

 

7.62x39's one of those rounds whose velocity, (and general effectiveness), isn't affected that much by barrel length, so at ~16.3", it's pretty much reached its potential.

 

 

thats an interesting chart... looks like the Golden Tiger has the best velocity out of all the russian ammo... I will definatley be picking some of this up and doing an accuracy test...

 

 

[Red Star 38]

If you really want your weapon to shoot the best it can. You need to slug the barrel. You take a soft lead ball and push it through your barrel. Then you measure it.

7.62 can measure any where from .308 inch to .314 inch. After you know the exact size of your barrel. Lets say it .311 inch.

Then get a sample of various brands of ammo and measure it. You will find that it is also all over the map with size. Even the same box will give you different sizes.

If your barrel measures .311 find that brand that uses bullets that measure .312 Even then measure all the bullets. They will range from .311 to .313

Now you know the brand your weapon likes and you keep the .312's for your accuracy mags and load all the rest in your range mags.

 

sounds like a very sound idea. The only problem is getting the materials to do such a test. I have no way to push a soft lead ball down the barrel (other than firing it of course )

 

but, if you have the tools to do this, it sounds like a fantastic way of finding out the best ammo for your rifle without actually shooting it.

[Lone Eagle 839]

A cheap way to slug the barrel is get some "bullet weights" from the fishing section at Wal-Mart(or your favorite sporting goods retailer/outfitter). I picked up some years ago that measured .313, Bored the center hole out to 1/8" so it would give just a little, and used a long aluminum rod to drive it with. I haven't "slugged" the Arsenal, but may do that before my next shoot.

Edited August 18, 2011 by Lone Eagle

[my762buzz 141]

i was wondering if different ammo would have a drastic difference in patterning.

Turns out, yah, it does.

 

Handloads with the right components will make a world of difference in 7.62x39

 

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php?topic=144188.0

[BpS12 512]

I just picked up some Red Hammer HPs I'll try to post a reveiw on when I get the chance to go to the range. Maybe in a couple weeks.

[jt-cali 0]

The velocity chart above seems impressive for the Yugo round, considering the surplus ammo I' ve been seeing were manufactured in the 80s. Does anyone know if age makes a difference? Will the golden Tiger still perform as well 30years down the line, provided they are kept in sealed ammo cans? How much longer will those old Yugo surplus keep?

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

The velocity chart above seems impressive for the Yugo round, considering the surplus ammo I' ve been seeing were manufactured in the 80s.

Does anyone know if age makes a difference? Will the golden Tiger still perform as well 30years down the line, provided they are kept in sealed ammo cans?

How much longer will those old Yugo surplus keep?

Age isn't likely to make any significant difference for another three decades and more, at least not for any decently sealed ammo, be it brass cased or coated steel.

Hell, in most temperate climates it will keep decades, in it's own box sitting on a open shelf as long as it is kept dry, reasonably temp stable and free of corrosion.

 

I've used various US & USSR milsurp ammo that was a hell of a lot older then 80s DOM, try 40s-50s, some with a bit of minor corrosion.

I was just given a bunch of DOM 52 & 54, M1 carbine ammo, all it went BANG! And I wouldn't want to get hit by any of it.

I bet it wouldn't show any significant difference between it's original specs and now, even through a chronograph.

[Red Star 38]

So!

 

went out to the range this weekend with 50 rounds of Hornady. The ones with the little red ballistic polymer tip.

 

Honestly, I wasnt that impressed. The grouping was all over the place. I would compare the performance to the yugo surplus. I did have a couple nice 2 shot groups, but it looks like thats the best it will do. For me at any rate

 

If I was to bet what the issue with the ammo is, I would say its the polymer tip. I noticed that some of them were not EXACTLY centered, and some of them looked a little canted.

The benefits of having the polymer tip are alright, but i would prefer accuracy to reliable expansion in a rifle round.

 

The range was outdoors

94 degrees

quite humind

fired from a 20 inch saiga, with a redfield 3 to 9 scope

ammo used was Hornady 123 grain SST. steel cased, polymer tip

fired from a foam rest

 

the next rounds under the gun will be the Golden Bear.

 

 

 

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

...The golden tiger is the most impressive to me, ill be getting some of that

 

Excellent idea. I've used all the various new steel-cased Russkie ammo and GT is my favorite. The boat tail bullet delivers excellent accuracy, especially at long, (for 7.62x39 anyway), range. They're also loaded pretty "hot", (excellent velocity), and sealed well for longevity.

 

I just wish GT made a JHP round; ideally one similar to that sold under the Wolf "Military Classic" label. That bullet, were it boat-tailed and loaded hotter... would be ideal for anything other than firing at targets through cover, (where FMJ really shines)

Edited August 29, 2011 by post-apocalyptic

[Ken1961 14]

OK, I finally got the newly converted saiga to the range. Shooting at 25yrds (the limit we had there) indoors, using Barnaul 123 gr. FMJ, I got the following on 5-spot training targets:

[Bigtwin 219]

I have found for me anyway(and as un scientific as it is), that Brown bear is far more accurate in my Saiga than Wolf! By about 1/2 inch or a bit better.

With wolf I had only 2 or 3 rip the hole open , with Brown bear I have 5 or 6 do that same thing.

[Red Star 38]

I have found for me anyway(and as un scientific as it is), that Brown bear is far more accurate in my Saiga than Wolf! By about 1/2 inch or a bit better.

With wolf I had only 2 or 3 rip the hole open , with Brown bear I have 5 or 6 do that same thing.

 

 

interesting observation... I think (and after many testimonials from many people here) the new ruskie factory ammo is beginning to lead the way in both accuracy and affordability.

 

I cant wait to feed more GT to my wee beastie

 

 

[Nailbomb 10,221]

...The golden tiger is the most impressive to me, ill be getting some of that

 

Excellent idea. I've used all the various new steel-cased Russkie ammo and GT is my favorite. The boat tail bullet delivers excellent accuracy, especially at long, (for 7.62x39 anyway), range. They're also loaded pretty "hot", (excellent velocity), and sealed well for longevity.

 

I just wish GT made a JHP round; ideally one similar to that sold under the Wolf "Military Classic" label. That bullet, were it boat-tailed and loaded hotter... would be ideal for anything other than firing at targets through cover, (where FMJ really shines)

Many contemporary Russian-made 7.62×39 cartridges, such as those sold under the brand names Wolf Ammunition and Golden Tiger, feature a modified M67 bullet with an airspace cast into the nose or similar ballistic-enhancing tip design (e.g. 8m3) which improve fragmentation and/or tumbling tendencies.

Golden tiger has a hollow nose in its FMJ rounds. this causes the bullet to dive or tumble upon entering a target. So take that into consideration.

[Red Star 38]

Golden tiger has a hollow nose in its FMJ rounds. this causes the bullet to dive or tumble upon entering a target. So take that into consideration.

 

now that is interesting news!

 

I wonder... if you were to file down the tip of the bullet just a bit to expose that cavity, would it behave like a JHP? would there be any issues with the rounds feeding if they were slightly shorter?

 

if they feed well, and perform like a JHP, you wont need to buy any other sort of ammo! Ever!

[Nailbomb 10,221]

Golden tiger has a hollow nose in its FMJ rounds. this causes the bullet to dive or tumble upon entering a target. So take that into consideration.

 

now that is interesting news!

 

I wonder... if you were to file down the tip of the bullet just a bit to expose that cavity, would it behave like a JHP? would there be any issues with the rounds feeding if they were slightly shorter?

 

if they feed well, and perform like a JHP, you wont need to buy any other sort of ammo! Ever!

you would have to test it, but it wouldn't be worth it to modify every bullet IMHO.

 

It should work well enough as advertised. Its simply a trade off for better penetration than a JHP, but still maintaining better wounding characteristics than standard FMJ.

 

if you want JHPs just get Wolf military classic HPs. 8m3 bullets work great.

[Red Star 38]

you would have to test it, but it wouldn't be worth it to modify every bullet IMHO.

 

It should work well enough as advertised. Its simply a trade off for better penetration than a JHP, but still maintaining better wounding characteristics than standard FMJ.

 

if you want JHPs just get Wolf military classic HPs. 8m3 bullets work great.

 

 

 

agreed. I was thinking if the need arose, you could reveal the cavity and you would get the JHP performance. I wonder; if you left the bullet untouched, will its terminal ballistics be similar to the 5.45 round? maybe to a lesser extent, but the tumbling that would be induced by the flattened cavity would still be pretty nasty.

 

 

[Revolver Ocelot 3]

Would be cool if you could compare Tula and Ulyanovsk to Golden Tiger.

[Bigtwin 219]

Oh I forgot to mention, I intend to pick up some GT to see how it performs for me also. I will order it in about a week or so(have to save up for 500 rounds). I found them at a same price as Bear ammo.

[Red Star 38]

Would be cool if you could compare Tula and Ulyanovsk to Golden Tiger.

 

I have ordered some GT soft point ammo. should come in sometime next week. Ill report on that, then the next batch will be the Tula and Uly ammo So, in about a month ill do a Tula/Uly test

[Red Star 38]

Oh I forgot to mention, I intend to pick up some GT to see how it performs for me also. I will order it in about a week or so(have to save up for 500 rounds). I found them at a same price as Bear ammo.

 

awesome! when you do take it the range, please post your results! if you look at my posts showing the target, you should see all the info i included (barrel length, temp, indoor/outdoor etc) It would be good to keep the data the same

 

also, could you post a link/send me a pm to where you got the GT? i only found some at midway, and that's the soft point...

[brandywine 5]

Would be cool if you could compare Tula and Ulyanovsk to Golden Tiger.

 

Tula and Wolf are the same, just different names and packaging. All made at Tula arsenal.

[physicsnerd 139]

Could you post a link to the GT SP? I just tried to find it at Midway and did not see it.

 

Regular GT you can get at SGAmmo. http://www.sgammo.com/catalog/rifle-ammunition/762x39