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MD Arms Double Stack Mag Patent


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#241 GunFun

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Posted 29 February 2016 - 10:29 PM

it's a picture Cobra made as a joke a long time ago.


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#242 JonWienke

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 06:21 AM

Belt fed is a totally different animal than double stack. It's more like a single stack in that the rounds are pulled out of the belt and then fed into the chamber one at a time.
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#243 Heartbreaker

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 06:36 AM

Besides the fact that it's impossible to belt-feed rimmed cartridges.
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#244 shifty_85

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 08:04 AM

Besides the fact that it's impossible to belt-feed rimmed cartridges.

 

The russians and brits never had belf fed 7.62x54R? or .303 brit? strange could have swore they did....

 

 

id want the S-12 to have a system like this PKM red jacket made

 

 

and if you are saying you cannot do it with a 12 gauge....this guy home made one....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iX7vwivR6cE


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#245 JonWienke

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 12:58 PM

Besides the fact that it's impossible to belt-feed rimmed cartridges.

 

Not true:



#246 Heartbreaker

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 01:23 PM

Okay, I was wrong. It appears those designs use cloth belts that can expand to let the rims pass through.
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#247 JonWienke

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 02:53 PM

Again, incorrect. Belt-fed mechanisms generally pull the cartridge out of the belt from the rear, then either lift or lower the cartridge, then feed it into the chamber. At least that is how the M2 .50, 240 .7.62, and SAW 5.56 mechanisms work. None of them push the cartridge through the belt forward, the case taper would cause way too much friction with the links, and the bolt would prevent the belt links from separating as designed if it was threaded through them.


Note that the belt feeds into the receiver above the barrel...

 

 

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#248 GunFun

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 04:27 PM

Besides the fact that it's impossible to belt-feed rimmed cartridges.

 

The first 20 years of machine guns were based on rimmed cartridges. Maxim's guns were quite reliable.


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#249 Mike Davidson

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Posted 29 August 2017 - 11:52 PM

A response and update is long over due and I apologize for that.

A number of reasons have prevented the production of the double stacks over the years. From fears of import studies by Obama's ATF, RAA losing their import contract, internal issues and a whole list of other reasons leading up to the eventual supply cutoff by the sanctions on Russia in what was an already saturated market that was still trying to recover from the Sandyhook run.

The reason they haven't been released has NEVER been reliability issues. From the time I said to myself I would make one to the time I was test firing my prototype was 17 days! The prototype has NEVER had a single malfunction due to any design flaws. Many, many rounds of testing... Despite that I still made many refinements to the design and prototype for many improvements. The one and only time my prototype ever failed to feed was when a make shift spring came apart. It was Saiga-12 Promag spring and a Saiga-12 SGM spring that was taped together with scotch tape. Since the Promag has or had a reversed twist direction than all the other springs from everyone else it let them meet in the middle. After hundreds of rounds the tape finally gave and the springs bound. Of course there had to be someone present to witness the failure and if they are still an active member of this forum maybe they can tell you how it failed horribly, lol. Since I never planned to sale them with scotch tapped together springs I don't consider it a real failure either...

The reason they haven't been released has NEVER been a repeatability issue. The prototype was made with math and numbers and not hand carving. Math and numbers are very repeatable. Two plates of aluminum cnc machined and bolted together with external geometry focusing solely on being able to attach it fit the gun is what the prototype in the video is. That's why it looks like a block because externally that is all it is. With math and numbers repeatability is most definitely achievable in a wide range of production methods from plastic injection to stamping to machining and even casting...

Bottom line is when I was last heavy on the Saiga-12 double stack production in 2014 I was just getting ready to pull the trigger on mold and tooling production when I noticed that with the magazine at rest out of the gun sometimes a round in the transition from double to single stack could become loose and shift front to back in the mag. There is just a point in the transition that a round won't have enough pressure against it to keep it pinched tightly between the other rounds. This condition is actually inherent to a double to single magazine. You can hear a round in the right position of the transition moving in basically any double to single magazine out there. I had no concern of it being a reliability issue because the magazine was actually designed to allow for front to back movement as well. It was the sound of the round moving that hung me up for a couple months. At first I was trying to remove the condition all together because I get hung up on trivial imperfections. It's a blessing and a curse.... I finally decided to abandon the splitting hairs attempt to remove the possibility of movement in the transition and to just go with the super simple solution of arranging this point of transition to take place during the cycling of the gun so any noise would be hidden by the much louder noises of firing and cycling. Then with the magazine at rest in the gun or out of the gun it couldn't make the noise. Then the sanctions came... As stated above at this time most of the industry was still suffering the saturation caused by Sandyhook. The Saiga-12 was also suffering from over pricing that basically doubled in short order by the manufacture trying to exploit it's explosion in popularity. There was the big concern the limited market couldn't support the new product. Being what it is, an absolutely reliable design in both a never done before revolution and into the still claimed by many "experts" realm of impossibly it eventually probably would have made the project feasible. Then there was also the fear of other possible imminent restrictions from the 2014 administration. (Weather these orders or actions would have been legal or not the real fear was there. The banning of future machineguns in 1986 was a completely illegal law and action by our representatives as well but it still stands...). So basically a sound ultimately stopped the production. Had the sanctions came 30 days later I would have very likely been past the point of no return in commitment with molds and other tooling in process. Or had I ignored the noise and went with it as it was but that's just not me. It's sad and it sucks but it is the reality. I do apologize and hope you know that there isn't a person out there that wanted double stack Saiga-12 mags available more than I did. If something changed with the sanctions, importability and a drop in stock gun prices back around the $600 or less mark that could change though. I'm not going to produce this for the poorly accepted clones on the market either. I was hoping the sanctions would have been lifted by now but that's not looking likely for the foreseeable future...

To address something else regarding licensing for other firearms. It is true that I contacted Black Ace offering a licensing agreement. What isn't true is Eric saying I wanted him to lead the development and refinement of the design. Basically the only thing needed would have been an adaptation to their follower design. At the time of contact I wasn't aware they were having all the problems with their firearm design or I wouldn't have reached out to them to begin with. The last thing I would want for my design is to be blamed for the flaws of an accepting firearm or even associated with such.

I also just saw today the video and future production claims back in December 2014 by Kdoske. Maybe at first they thought they could get around my patent or maybe they thought the hell with my patent. My guess is they actually used my patent info to make their mag. They must not have gotten something right if they were having issues with mixed 3" and 2 3/4" rounds though. I'm not sure what happened there but can only guess what stopped them was an infringement issue. I'm guessing an attorney finally laid it down to them about the line they were getting ready to cross. Working around my patent with an accepted, feasible and functional product is not going to be an easy feat. I won't say impossible because that is just silly to claim but it is not going to be easy at all.

Again, I apologize for not updating sooner and apologize for the halt on mass production for the Saiga-12. You can be assured though that some point in the near future a platform will come that uses my double stack design. When it does future tactical shotguns will never be the same either.

Thanks, MikeD
Also there is a push through belt fed machinegun for rim fired ammo. Look at the UK59. It fires rimmed 7.62x54r. Unlike the PKM or most modern PKP that pulls the round out of the belt the UK59 actaully pushes it through.
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#250 saltydecimator

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Posted 04 September 2017 - 10:15 PM

FREAKING.  AMPED!!!!!!!


Reasonable Politician Control Measures:

-Breathalyzer is mandatory in all personal vehicles

-Only 40% of campaign money can be used on Cocaine and personal luxury items

-Limit of 2 call girls per legislative session (can have multiple rendezvous with taxpayers money, however must be the same 2)

-When a seat becomes vacant, it can only be sold for 110% of what it was sold for last

-All bribery money must be reported on form 1099-Misc

 

am the gun lobby you treasonous slime!!!!

 

 
 

#251 G O B

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 05:21 PM

Thank you, Mike.

Good to hear from you. I still want 2 of them!


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#252 JohnnyE

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 06:17 PM

I'll take 8 or 12 of them. I have 4 Saiga's to feed.


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#253 saltydecimator

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 06:14 PM

loooooooovvve it johnye!  i only have 2 at the moment, but i hope the stork brings me a 3rd....

 

so i wonder how many mags need to be produced (sold) for it to be profitable....


Edited by saltydecimator, 11 September 2017 - 06:14 PM.

Reasonable Politician Control Measures:

-Breathalyzer is mandatory in all personal vehicles

-Only 40% of campaign money can be used on Cocaine and personal luxury items

-Limit of 2 call girls per legislative session (can have multiple rendezvous with taxpayers money, however must be the same 2)

-When a seat becomes vacant, it can only be sold for 110% of what it was sold for last

-All bribery money must be reported on form 1099-Misc

 

am the gun lobby you treasonous slime!!!!

 

 
 

#254 JohnnyE

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Posted 11 September 2017 - 07:04 PM

Thanks SD. I have the four tuned so well, they eat everything I feed them...3 dram skeet loads up through Brenneke magnums. If I put on a paradox rifled choke, I can hit a cafeteria tray sized target with Brenneke and DDupleks slugs out to 200 yards. Lots of drop, sure, but accurate. It took years of work, and more than a few parts swaps, but I got them where I like them






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