Knoxx Drum for S-12!!!

[scoutjoe 276]

 

 

The magazines themselves are sturdy but the whole Knoxx drum 'system' leaves some to be desired.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

ya my knoxx drum always acts fickle around the 6th or 7th round...i'd rather take a stick also

[RDSWriter 5]

PLEASE - One of you who has an FFL or Class 2 license needs to clarify something for me. Previously in this thread, some folks mentioned that the firearm might be non-922r compliant.

 

I thought 922r that only applies to individuals - not dealers or manufacturers. In other words, FFLs and manufacturers can have non-922r compliant firearms but cannot transfer them to individuals. How else would dealers be transferring non-922r compliant Saiga 12Cs between dealers if this were not still the case.

 

Also if I'm not mistaken, Dealers could own non-922r compliant firearms prior to the AWB sunetting, but could not transfer them to individuals without the requisite number of US parts and 2 or less 'evil' features, right?

 

Finally, there's nothing to say that this shotty is not full auto if Stoney Creek is a Class 2 shop.

 

ANY clarification is appreciated.

Edited September 21, 2005 by RDSWriter

[ironhead7544 35]

McUZI: If the 10 round mag is non 922r in a stock Saiga-12, What about the 8 rounder? Is there a 5 round limit for 922r in a semi shotgun? Also what about the 30 round 7.62x39 magazines imported by EAA? Those must have been approved by ATF. Thanks.

[McUZI 1]

According to the gay and remarkably idiotic law, you cannot 'assemble' a firearm that is prohibited from importation using imported parts.

 

922r dictates that imported shotguns with a capacity of over five rounds are prohibited from importation. Adding an 8 or 10 round magazine to an imported Saiga 12 is making an imported shotgun with an 8 or 10 round capacity.

 

It's the Hy Hunter rule that was drafted into the law so gun builders wouldn't import the component 'parts' of firearms that were otherwise prohibited from importation and assemble them here.

In the late 1960's and early 1970's, Hy Hunter circumvented the 1968 Gun Control Acts prohibition on 'non sporting handguns' (i.e- $30 handguns imported from Germany) by importing every part of the import-prohibited pistol as 'scrap metal' and assembling them here. They learned from that and put language in the law that makes such downward assembly from imported parts illegal.

 

So, no, you cannot add an 8 round magazine to a S12 sporter either.

But it's just so easy... Doesn't require any dremmeling or filing. Just lock that mag in there! It seems so natural that there's just no way it could be illegal!

 

 

The law is retarded, but it is what it is.

Edited September 21, 2005 by McUZI

[McUZI 1]

Edited September 21, 2005 by McUZI

[topmaul 42]

McUzi

I thought you would like to know I got rid of my Llama and got a Berretta.

[McUZI 1]

Cool. What kind of Beretta did you get?

[ISUshooter 0]

Cool. What kind of Beretta did you get?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

<---- thinks McUzi is too smart

[Bvamp 604]

watch how fast the s12 goes DD now I give it 6 months. that is if the idiot that owns that website that took a photo of a prohibited firearm and posted it doesnt go to prison first. maybe both will happen. it wasnt brought into the country under the exemption laws, so it cannot have a drum clipped to it without being US parted out first. simple.

 

- someone mentioned the cops gotta have to coolest shit. why is it that almost no police department got any of the 12c's that were brought in under the reviewal purposes clause of the import law? you know, the intent of those guns being imported in the first place...and then for some reason werent loaned to police and swat teams for reviewal. and then only private sales to individual police were going on? gotta love america, right?

 

either way, hopefully the guy making the drums will wait till the guns hit the fucking docks first before they sell one to the atf that is surely going to be buying one the first day they are out. cause when they do, the saiga will be made a DD. the only reason it wouldnt be made one is because the government would want to allow more in country so THEY can buy them first, then sell them. thats how the country has always worked, so I dont see whats going to be different about this case.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Makes me glad I'm sitting on 6 S-12s Who needs a new importer.

What the hell good is a drum anyway if it only holds one more round than the factory stick mag and there will soon be 10 rd stick mags available? Not to mention floorplate extensions that will allow two more additional rounds. That's 24 rounds if you have a mag clamp like I do. Believe me that's all the wieght you need hanging off the damned thing. Mine weighs around 15 lbs with two full mags and the Kobra and that's the synthetic one. Then there's the mag change fiasco. Most people cant seem to handle mag changes with the stick mag and it's easy to grip with one hand. Sorry but I just don't see the point in that puny little drum especially if there's even the slightest chance it will piss off ATF.

[Wolverine 10,360]

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=7817

 

 

Beetleguese from Howard Stern's old "E" show has graciously offered to represent the Saiga owners as lead counsel in combating the oppressive BATFE on the DD issue. He can't do any worse than anyone else has in prevailing on BATFE determinations.

Edited September 22, 2005 by Wolverine

[topmaul 42]

Cobra,

We need to get Team Saiga to a match again, Can you come over this way next month? Or do you want to do a three gun at Oxford? I would like to get a bunch of Saiga shooters here in Norfolk at the next Tactical Shotgun match we could order out for pizza and watch the guys with the old facioned shotguns try to match our time. The truth is some of them are pretty darn good I cam in third last month I was a full 17 seconds off the mark. I did take some of the more Saiga Frindly stages. I can't wait to see you guys next time. 3gunmatch.com that's a good place to find a match. Maybe we could go to one down near Fort Bragg. Well let me know.

 

By the way I agree with you I like my two 8 rounders that are clinched and stuffed with nine rounds. Way better than a drum. Good night all

 

Sorry for side tracking the tread.

 

Is it me or is it getting a little racist around here? No offense to anyone just a question. (so don't rip my head off)

Edited September 22, 2005 by topmaul

[300RUM 0]

Makes me glad I'm sitting on 6 S-12s Who needs a new importer.

What the hell good is a drum anyway if it only holds one more round than the factory stick mag and there will soon be 10 rd stick mags available? Not to mention floorplate extensions that will allow two more additional rounds. That's 24 rounds if you have a mag clamp like I do. Believe me that's all the wieght you need hanging off the damned thing. Mine weighs around 15 lbs with two full mags and the Kobra and that's the synthetic one. Then there's the mag change fiasco. Most people cant seem to handle mag changes with the stick mag and it's easy to grip with one hand. Sorry but I just don't see the point in that puny little drum especially if there's even the slightest chance it will piss off ATF.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

So your sitting on six S12's.

If it goes DD they are not magically going to triple in value.

All that happened was ATF gave you the stamp or you had to sell it to a NFA dealer.

 

18.5" barrel, forward girp, pistol grip, Romanian sidefolder and a drum, I'll take 10 rounds in the space of a 5 round mag anyday over your 10 round stick mag.

[RDSWriter 5]

I don't see the ATF declaring all S12s DDs. That would be akin to making all Remington autoloading shottys DDs if anyone ever made a kit that enabled the shotgun to use a drum. Remington can't control independent manufacturers kits, but a Ruling would shut down their manufacture.

 

First the ATF has to provide a Ruling WHY an S12 is unsporting and hence a DD. They would give a description - pistol grip, folding stock, short sight radius, NLFD, flash suppressor, et cetera. Maybe they will do a features list akin to 922r.... but more likely I see them stating something akin to a 38mm flare launcher and antipersonnel ammunition. You can own one of the two - but not both - without registration. Owning both is 'constructive intent' to own a DD.

 

So, I'm betting that the ATF will continue to allow unaltered Saiga 12s into the country, but will specify what alterations would subject it to the NFA. This scenario (1) enables sporting S12s to be imported (2) crushes the market for domestic high capacity magazine production, (3) prevents configuration conversions without registration, (4) restricts the transfer of non-sporting configured S12s, and (5) f**ks current owners because the value of their conversion will not go up... because someone could simply Form 1 a S12 DD and create NIB one.

 

Oh yeah... and (IF IF IF they make a new Ruling) I expect them to retroactively declare all current Saiga 12s and/or ones using a 5+ capacity magazine as a DD and require 'grandfathered' registration. The only 'positives' are that you could remove your US parts and re-use them in a rifle build-up because DDs are not subject to 922r and you could cut the barrel down as short as you want.

Edited September 22, 2005 by RDSWriter

[jimmbswu 0]

If the above scenario comes to pass, can we then convert our DD S-12s into full auto, since they're already DD anyways?

 

Jimmy

[shooter2 5]

If the above scenario comes to pass, can we then convert our DD S-12s into full auto, since they're already DD anyways?

 

No. DDs and machine guns are two separate entities under the NFA. Besides which, production of new MGs for civilian use has been prohibited since 1986.

[jimmbswu 0]

The question is, though, which one is a more inclusive term?

 

For example, say we have a 20mm chain gun.

 

Is it a DD or a machine gun?

 

Personally, I think the destructive device ruling applies before the machine gun applies. I mean, what is more fundamental to the identity of the weapon in question, the 20 mm or the chain motor?

 

In a similar vein, it is logical to see that the DD regulations apply more to the full-auto S-12 than the machine gun regs.

 

Jimmy

[McUZI 1]

I don't see the ATF declaring all S12s DDs. That would be akin to making all Remington autoloading shottys DDs if anyone ever made a kit that enabled the shotgun to use a drum. Remington can't control independent manufacturers kits, but a Ruling would shut down their manufacture.

 

First the ATF has to provide a Ruling WHY an S12 is unsporting and hence a DD. They would give a description - pistol grip, folding stock, short sight radius, NLFD, flash suppressor, et cetera. Maybe they will do a features list akin to 922r.... but more likely I see them stating something akin to a 38mm flare launcher and antipersonnel ammunition. You can own one of the two - but not both - without registration. Owning both is 'constructive intent' to own a DD.

 

So, I'm betting that the ATF will continue to allow unaltered Saiga 12s into the country, but will specify what alterations would subject it to the NFA. This scenario (1) enables sporting S12s to be imported (2) crushes the market for domestic high capacity magazine production, (3) prevents configuration conversions without registration, (4) restricts the transfer of non-sporting configured S12s, and (5) f**ks current owners because the value of their conversion will not go up... because someone could simply Form 1 a S12 DD and create NIB one.

 

Oh yeah... and (IF IF IF they make a new Ruling) I expect them to retroactively declare all current Saiga 12s and/or ones using a 5+ capacity magazine as a DD and require 'grandfathered' registration. The only 'positives' are that you could remove your US parts and re-use them in a rifle build-up because DDs are not subject to 922r and you could cut the barrel down as short as you want.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Do you have any basis in logic for any of this?

Have you studied the history of the three DD shotguns, and what caused them to become reclassified?

This isn't new ground here. It's been done before.

 

Much of what you wrote was a total joke, with all due respect.

[300RUM 0]

The question is, though, which one is a more inclusive term?

 

For example, say we have a 20mm chain gun.

 

Is it a DD or a machine gun?

 

Personally, I think the destructive device ruling applies before the machine gun applies.  I mean, what is more fundamental to the identity of the weapon in question, the 20 mm or the chain motor?

 

In a similar vein, it is logical to see that the DD regulations apply more to the full-auto S-12 than the machine gun regs.

 

Jimmy

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It is a machine gun first. If more than one round is fired w/a single pull of a trigger it is considered a machine gun. Class II's are allowed to create a registered AOW, DD, or SBR and transfer it to a civilian, but they cannot create a transferable select-fire weapon.

 

The DD designation applies to flamethrowers, mortars, cannons, and striker/street sweeper shotguns. -And possibly the S12.

[McUZI 1]

The DD designation applies to flamethrowers,

 

NO IT DOESN'T.

There are a few states that prohibit them due to state law, but THEY ARE NOT FEDERALLY CLASSIFIED AS DD'S.

[300RUM 0]

The DD designation applies to flamethrowers,

 

NO IT DOESN'T.

There are a few states that prohibit them due to state law, but THEY ARE NOT FEDERALLY CLASSIFIED AS DD'S.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

I was at Knob Creek a couple of years ago and offered to buy a Vietnam era flame thrower, the owner claimed it had to be transfered.

[McUZI 1]

I was at Knob Creek a couple of years ago and offered to buy a Vietnam era flame thrower, the owner claimed it had to be transfered.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, either he was lying or you are lying as flamethrowers aren't DD's.

[inparidel 4]

That mag looks exactly like the drum for the pump shotty. Is anyone sure that they have mfg'd the mag, and they just didn't place the pump mag there as a set-up pic?

 

Well, there goes any hopes I had of buying a couple more Saiga shottys when the US dealership is up and running. Can you say "DD?" I love these guns so much that I am perfectly happy with 8 rounders that don't poke the bear--who has been in an unusually shitty mood as of late.

 

When will they ever learn. killing the goose with the fancy eggs.

Edited September 23, 2005 by inparidel

[6500rpm 670]

I must be missing something?? DD?? The 10 round drums have been available for other shotties, what make the Saiga 12 such a special target other than the fact that it's AK based. As for Stonycreek, they seem to be targeted on class 3 and LEO customers, I can't see them making rookie mistakes that would endanger their business. Geezzzzz, yet another thread gone wild....should probably kick myself in the ass for adding to it. The worst thing is all this hype over a product that doesn't seem to have any real benefit over currently available mags. It does kind of have cool factor for being unique, but that's pretty much where it stops....not quite as impressive as the serious hi cap mags for AK's, AR's, etc.

[kmoore 3]

I must be missing something?? DD?? The 10 round drums have been available for other shotties, what make the Saiga 12 such a special target other than the fact that it's AK based.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Do you know of other semi's other than the DD's. (striker12, usas12 or streetsweeper)? The knoxx is in approved territory as it is pump shotty.

[mrorange 0]

 

I was at Knob Creek a couple of years ago and offered to buy a Vietnam era flame thrower, the owner claimed it had to be transfered.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Well, either he was lying or you are lying as flamethrowers aren't DD's.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

McUzi is right. I used to own a WWII M2 flamethrower and regularly shot it at the creek as I'm one of the guys whose helped run the flamethrower range with David Michael (THE flamethrower guy, I'm just the skinny guy in the nomex tanker suit..) They are not considered DD's and I have a letter from the ATF tech branch confirming it. No federal transfer is necessary, as far as the ATF is concerned, they are oversized water guns... could have something to do with the fact that there are probably less than fifty working units in the entire country and is just not worth their time....

[6500rpm 670]

This might be a thread killer...I sent Stony an email link to this thread so they could respond if they wished (the company seems to produce high quality items and I thought they should have the oportunity to respond to all the negative press for an item several board members requested prior to the add release).

When it comes to legal issues, especially DD, I don't claim to know much more than the basic 10 or less game-I guess semi auto+10 or more in a 12ga=Bad?

Regardless, the reply I was given from Stony indicates that the offensive add was removed and the project is DEAD. No long explination, DEAD.

The only thing I have to add is be careful what you wish for, and if you have a problem with someones product-go to THEM with your concerns. I feel for anyone who lays out R&D $$$$ and is unable to bring the product to market. I also have concerns for members who are in the market to produce mags for our benefit. I don't know the exact reason the product was pulled, but I would suggest that any of our potential mag producers contact the folks at Stonycreek before laying out another dime for mags larger than eight. If some how you manage to cram in more than eight, don't talk about it until we're all clear on the issue. It seem as those that do get bit in the ass.

[kmoore 3]

6.5K Sorry, I just read my post and it looked like I was dogging you. I don't know much either, I just wondered if there were other non DD shotties that I was clueless about. I also wanted you to realize that pumps get a pass. AFAIK, there are no pump action shotties on the DD list. For sure pumps were never considered AW. Seem to be in a class by themselves.

 

I share your concerns with mag producers. As DD's are decided on a case by case basis, I think the only thing we know is that the ATF is ok with 5 rounds or fewer. If you believe the rumors to be true, I doubt they care much for the 8 round mags, but given that they are relatively rare I think they fall under the radar. But this and other conjectures are just a bunch of guessing.

 

 

When it comes to legal issues, especially DD, I don't claim to know much more than the basic 10 or less game-I guess semi auto+10 or more in a 12ga=Bad?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[6500rpm 670]

Kmoore, no offense taken by your post. As a matter of fact I'm a little embarrased that I'm not more active on gun issues, or the laws in general. I'm a shooter by hobby-love to shoot, love the bang, like the smell of burning powder.

Always have. I have a brother that was a LEO for 32 years with SWAT training in D.C. and shot PPC for his department....he doesn't know shit either so on a lot of gun law related questions he refers me to people in his former departmet that deal specificly with gun laws. Sometimes I don't know if they even have a clue.

I was just a little pissed when I posted because of the letter I received from Stonycreek about killing their project. As a mechanic by trade, and performing a lot of modification work and fabrication to most everything I own, it pissed me off to see someone who had a long term project go down the drain. Also rubbed me a little raw to have people who post on this board that I respect to beat the shit out of Stoneycreek for producing something that we've all been asking for, be it in stick or drum form. If the hi cap mags are a bad deal, then we shouldn't be encouraging people like Zxxxx to make them, then kicking their ass on the board when they come through. Bottom line is that I still don't know the law on DD, I'll still probably buy large cap mags if they are commercially available (stupid as that may be), and even if I had the time to research the D.D. controversey, if by chance Stonycreek didn't get it right, I'd probably get it all F'd up.

 

Oh yea, some of the best lessons I learned in life are from getting my ass kicked in one form or another. As long as it doesn't happen in a jail cell, I'm good with that, so don't ever worry about offending me.

[inparidel 4]

6.5K  Sorry,  I just read my post and it looked like I was dogging you.  I don't know much either,  I just wondered if there were other non DD shotties that I was clueless about.  I also wanted you to realize that pumps get a pass.  AFAIK, there are no pump action shotties on the DD list.  For sure pumps were never considered AW.  Seem to be in a class by themselves. 

 

I share your concerns with mag producers.  As DD's are decided on a case by case basis, I think the only thing we know is that the ATF is ok with 5 rounds or fewer.  If you believe the rumors to be true, I doubt they care much for the 8 round mags, but given that they are relatively rare I think they fall under the radar.  But this and other conjectures are just a bunch of guessing.

 

 

When it comes to legal issues, especially DD, I don't claim to know much more than the basic 10 or less game-I guess semi auto+10 or more in a 12ga=Bad?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

What Kmoore said. I have a law degree and work with it daily. and I don't pretend to offer anyone any legal advice. I only have two eyes, ears and did not fall off the turnip truck yesterday. There ARE NO semi auto shottys with more than 5, and I pray eight rounds, that don't poke (or haven't poked to the point of DD) the bear.