Tooley 3 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I got a saiga chambered in .223.. So I need to install a bullet guide... I messed up pretty bad in the beginning.. I went to fast tapping the trunion and the tap broke and come to find out my drill bit slid a little bit when i drilled my hole.. It was a huge mess but after I took a sept back and drank a beer I went at it like a mad man (witch I was). I ended up breaking 2 drill bits and bent my punch.. Thankfully I was able to pop it thru and still save some of my threads.. I was able to save the tap too thanks to a bench grinder... Now on to my next problem witch was the hole not being perfect.. I had to do shit ton of grinding to the bullet guide but I was able to get it right.. About to put the lock tight on and let it ride... I'm gonna chalk this up to a learning experience.. If I can give any advice to help its if you think you going slow enough.... GO SLOWER.!! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grimm100 13 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Hand drill or press? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tooley 3 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 It's was a hand drill. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tooley 3 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Just took it out back and ran 50 rounds thru it, no issues. I'm just waiting on a pair of galil mags to get here for the final test Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I haven't done one as of yet but it seems a lot of people, even experienced ones, have trouble with installing bullet guides. I'm thinking one of the best tips is to drill the hole slightly oversize and use a quality tap. And like you said, don't get in a hurry. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
saiga545 47 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Greg from CSS has a video - he makes it look like child's play. I guess if you've done it 2000 times it finally gets easy. Any drilling into Russian steel has been a cluster fuck for me. My drill bit kept wandering when I had to drill the two holes for the triggerguard on the S308. I ended up with two slightly oversided oval shaped holes. You can't tell with the triggerguard installed - I feel your pain. But one thing that has helped me on my last conversion (a 223 like yours) was to use cutting oil and set your hand drill to a low speed - you get more torque and control that way. It also helps to use a centerpunch to make a guide hole for your drillbit (but you can still wander if you don't go slow like you said). 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shootsmuch 9 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 dude, you should just stick to breaking rock with a sledgehammer. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NickWhite 7 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 I didn't have a problem with mine except my T handles wouldn't fit. So I went to my hardware store and bought an adapter that makes it so you can use a 3/8ths or 1/4" ratchet. Everything went smoothly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tooley 3 Posted June 9, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Shootsmuch... I agree... But for the first time modifying any type of firearm I'd like to think that it didn't go as bad as it could have.. It still works just fine with the 50 test rounds I put thru it and I didn't notice any difference in the action.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SgtRaven 531 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 (edited) Tooley, Don't sweat: there is a wealth of useful advises and information on this forum. What's done is done and it's all about recovery now. So, stick to your Saiga build and keep posting on progress. If everyone was genius, and every project was easy and flawless, there would be no need for this Forum, Good Luck, Happy Shooting. Edited June 9, 2012 by Sgt. Raven 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shootsmuch 9 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 hey if she shoots then all is good. i have heard some real disasters on this forum and i have been responsible for a few of my own in my long and illustrious gunsmithing career, u should see what i did to a mauser about 10 years ago....lol. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mikebaker1129 19 Posted June 9, 2012 Report Share Posted June 9, 2012 Both of mine were cake . I use a automatic center punch to put a dimple in the spot that I want to drill,this keeps the drill bit from wandering . I bought the kit from Dinzag with the correct drill bit and tap . I used a cheap Black and decker cordless drill to both of mine,and the trick is to take no more than 1/4 of a turn with the tap before reversing the tap and breaking the chips. Use plenty of cutting oil,if cutting oil is not around use any oil you have around but go slow ,even going extra slow the job only takes about 5 minutes after the hole is drilled.If you rush,you will spend hours trying to remove a broken tap from the receiver. Taps are very "Hard" and do not drill-out very well. You do not want to do this . Go slow and only 1/4 of a turn . Hope this helps.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mancat 2,368 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 Key is to use plenty of oil on the tap, stop the tap as soon as you feel ANY resisance, and blow out the threads and tap with compressed air after each tap cycle. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pfbz 3 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) I didn't have a problem with mine except my T handles wouldn't fit. Same problem here. I remembered seeing on Dinzag's website the suggestion to not remove the workpiece from the drill press after drilling, and just chuck the tap into the press and turn it in by hand for perfect alignment. I did this for a turn or two, but was a bit freaked out at not being able to really gauge how much downward pressure I was applying with the press handle. I'd seen the guys on American Chopper (admittedly, not exactly the most precision builders) endlessly run their taps in cordless drills. Even though in the back of my mind, I kept hearing "DON'T DO IT!!!", I chucked up the tap into my Dewalt cordless, set it on low speed, and just nudged the trigger ever so slightly for the slowest speed possible. Reverse to break chips, slow forward again, reverse, etc. Well, holly hell, it worked! I'd still recommend using a tap handle or other adapter if you are at all squeamish about tapping the hole. Edited June 10, 2012 by pfbz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
canoecanoe 63 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 (edited) For me the best results are tapping by hand. Make sure your drilled hole is square with the trunion and that you are square and true with the tap. As stated, go slow and use plenty of oil. i go about 1/8 turn or until i feel resistance that indicates I am not cutting and the tiniest bit of flex in the tap. Then back off, break the chips and repeat as required. The only tap I have broken was when I tried to use a variable speed drill. Don't try this. This pretty easy to do if you think it through and take your time. It still should onky take 5 to 10 minutes, even being extra careful. There are several recent threads on this forum regarding tapping for the bullet guide, if you wish to search for them. Edited June 10, 2012 by canoecanoe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NickWhite 7 Posted June 10, 2012 Report Share Posted June 10, 2012 No way in hell would I trust a drill, or a press to tap. I just couldn't do that. Even the ratchet made me nervous. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pfbz 3 Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) No way in hell would I trust a drill, or a press to tap. I just couldn't do that. Even the ratchet made me nervous. I have always tapped by hand, but both of the alternatives were methods that others have used very successfully. Certainly Dinzag deserved the benefit of the doubt with his "put the tap in the drill press and turn it by hand" method, and I've seen others use the cordless drill method many times. And while russian steel might have not been the ideal place to experiment, it came out *perfect*. Edited June 11, 2012 by pfbz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Giantspeed 0 Posted June 11, 2012 Report Share Posted June 11, 2012 Just go slow I have done several of these and it just takes time I have salvaged one that was drilled wrong as well The taps are always flimsy the t handles I have always wind up slipping most of the time I use a vice grip and just turn slowly Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbanzai 113 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 I had problems with my hole being off center too. Luckily not too many of our fuck ups are unrecoverable. All's well that ends well. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pyzik 597 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Thanks for posting your screw up for all to learn from. I had one of Dinzag's old bullet guides and exchanged it for a new one and it doesn't line up with the old hole. I have never tapped a hole and don't have a drill press. I think my grandpa has a small drill press, I am going to call him today. I am too nervous to attempt it with just my cordless drill. I was hoping someone from my local gun forums could help but no one is willing I guess. Your thread will be a reminder in my head telling me to go it slow and measure twice cut once. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tooley 3 Posted June 13, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Just remember if you think your going slow enough.... Go slower.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jbanzai 113 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 Thanks for posting your screw up for all to learn from. I had one of Dinzag's old bullet guides and exchanged it for a new one and it doesn't line up with the old hole. I have never tapped a hole and don't have a drill press. I think my grandpa has a small drill press, I am going to call him today. I am too nervous to attempt it with just my cordless drill. I was hoping someone from my local gun forums could help but no one is willing I guess. Your thread will be a reminder in my head telling me to go it slow and measure twice cut once. How far off is the existing hole from where you need it now? You could 'stretch' the hole on the existing bullet guide with a drill and it will still hold it securely.....if it's not too far off. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pyzik 597 Posted June 13, 2012 Report Share Posted June 13, 2012 How far off is the existing hole from where you need it now? You could 'stretch' the hole on the existing bullet guide with a drill and it will still hold it securely.....if it's not too far off. Good thinking. It's far enough that drilling a new hole is not going to create a "figure 8" pattern. I am not home so I can't measure but I would say maybe 1/16" off (recalling from memory of just looking at it). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted June 22, 2012 Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 dont feel bad. ill be doing one again soon and i always dread it. im a perfectionist and i hate my own work, but in the same sense it turns out right. (although i still get pissed about petty shit when i think about it.). but as long as its running good then you didnt fuck up. there is a reason "they" call it a "tolerance". just enjoy your rifle that you put together and say fuck the rest. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
grimm100 13 Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I use the modified DInzag type method. Chuck up the tap in the press, hang a role of duck tape off the press handle to provide a few pounds of downward pressure. Then turn the chuck by hand, reversing every half turn or so to free up shavings. The nice thing about this method is that you can be sure your plum to the hole you just drilled. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I use the modified DInzag type method. Chuck up the tap in the press, hang a role of duck tape off the press handle to provide a few pounds of downward pressure. Then turn the chuck by hand, reversing every half turn or so to free up shavings. The nice thing about this method is that you can be sure your plum to the hole you just drilled. Good advice, for small holes I use the bench top (CHEAP) drill press, and remove the belt so i can use the pulley to turn the tap by hand - it makes it very easy to control. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheDarkHorse 216 Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 SOOO glad that the .308 doesn't need one... I'm a semi-retired machinist and the only way I would even begin to attempt this would be on a Bridgeport with a couple of new center drills for the pilot hole, new titanium drills (or at least carbide) for the bore and a tap set (3-stage) for the threads. I also suffer from OCD (everything has to be perfect) so just the thoughts of a hand drill on anything but wood disturbs me. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
canoecanoe 63 Posted June 29, 2012 Report Share Posted June 29, 2012 I am failing to understand why people are obsessing over this. Yes, you need to be careful, but this is not rocket science. Hand tools are plenty sufficient for this operation unless you are a complete klutz and can't chew gum and walk at the same time. Just go slow and pay attention to what you are doing. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted June 30, 2012 Report Share Posted June 30, 2012 my biggest problem is trying not to forget my tap wrench at work. i did one not long ago and had to put the tap in a set of vice grips. lol. fuckin redneck engineering. but it worked. forcing a tap will break them very easy. especially with a power tool and a small tap. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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