Damn they sound pissed..s-12 Knoxx drum..

[McUZI 1]

no its not ok McUzi. Like I told you, what I say in private stays in private.

 

What you said in private is the opposite of what you say in public.

You don't want what you asid in private made known because it's the opposite of the image you are trying to create in public.

Ya see, that makes you a two faced POS.

There is no one lower than such a man. No one.

 

Anyway, everything else you said is fluff.

The whole 'died for our country' and 'respect for the dead'- my god, just when I thought you couldn't get any more pathetic, you do.

[gunboy69 50]

I'm pretty new to this site...so Mcuzi, are you a known racist around here.

Because I will tell you this. Stereo types exist for a reason, its because alot of people in the same race do the same shit.

That being said, I would'nt deny anyone a place at my table just because of the color of their skin. But I will laugh at racist jokes or whatever sick crap I think is

funny. I guess we are all racist to a certain degree. If you are not ,than you are one of those P.c. mother fuckers ruining are country with whiny law suits, and protests. Man do I hate protesters!!

 

Lets not dig each others skeletons out of are closets, because we have all said shit that we would not want broadcast over the internet. Lets talk guns ,and be cool!

 

Hey Bvamp you remind me of a Construction superintendant I used to work

with. In meetings, the longer he talked the more pissed he got!

Evereybody be cool!

[PvtPyle 0]

I go away for a while and come back to find that we are all one big happy family.

 

To change the subject even more, we just placed our order with RAA will be a west coast wholesaler for the Saigas. We'll see how badly ATF and Customs screws up the delivery timeline.

[McUZI 1]

I go away for a while and come back to find that we are all one big happy family.

 

To change the subject even more, we just placed our order with RAA will be a west coast wholesaler for the Saigas. We'll see how badly ATF and Customs screws up the delivery timeline.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Did they give you any ballpark ideas on when delivery might begin?

[PvtPyle 0]

The end part of October the boat should arrive. Then it will be in the capable hands of the ATF.

[McUZI 1]

The end part of October the boat should arrive. Then it will be in the capable hands of the ATF.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That.

Sucks.

[StarLynx 0]

The end part of October the boat should arrive. Then it will be in the capable hands of the ATF.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

How long ago did they apply for their Import "Go-Ahead"??...I'm told by the field agents that they need to call EVERYDAY...to confirm status because if whoever is concerned doesn't...they may have a lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng wait.Calling everyday will push it forward...Bug the living dogshit out of em!...even if the administrative aid taking the call acts piss'd...keep bugg'n em.....they'll take care of it & push it thru...This info comes from several Field agents that think administrative ATF is nothing but a bunch'a dimwits...but have experienced the fact that the persistance...absolutely works... ..& are tired of having to listen to the dealers in person about something of which they have no power to change..

Just my 2 cents...

[PvtPyle 0]

They already have the approved form 6's in hand. All they have to wait for is ATF and Customs to go thru the shipment to make sure they have only what is on the permits. That could go quickly, or take quite a while depending on the mood of the inspectors.

[acetomatoco 0]

(mcuzi)

Im sorry that you have not understood my point although it has been quite obvious from the beginning. From the beginning the point has been: That from a picture no one can positively say, 100% without a doubt, that the pictured shotgun is illegal or legal. (Except a Fool)

 

Here is a multiple choice test similiar to ones we see in school.

Problem 1) Looking at the Stoneycreek picture of a Saiga Sporter 12 ga shotgun with a 10 rd Knoxx Drum magazine give the best answer.

A ) It's Legal

B ) It's Illegal

C) The legality or illegality is unknown

 

We already know you got this wrong.

Answer A and B are wrong,no one knows what the foreign part count is, or what type of paperwork the owner has to own this weapon.

Answer C That's correct.Give the best answer from what you are given. Remember never read into the question and don't assume anything.

 

For some reason you have the ability to look at pictures and deem the pictured item illegal without any facts. Have you told Law Enforcement of this ability? It could save them alot of time in Court.You could tell the Jury that: You bet your life savings that it is illegal. That should convince everyone.

Because you never heard of anyone putting US parts into a Saiga Sporter Configuration or paying the DD $200 Tax for one, you try to convince everyone that the shotgun is illegal.Why wouldn't someone get the $200 tax stamp?,some people have talked about it. For some people it would be much easier to get the tax stamp and not have to screw around with the foreign parts count. Once they get the stamp they can do almost anything to it and not have to worry.

 

You are accusing Stoneycreek with something as serious as a Felony and you say you do not have to prove it. WOW! Not very credible. In this day and age accusers usually back up their accusations with proof. Saying it is illegal is your most likely answer (AKA Guess) and since you said it everyone is supposed to believe it. WOW! again.

I have questioned you with normal possibilities (Foreign Parts Count and different types of normal gun owner/Mfg/FFL paperwork) and you have defended yourself and attacked with absurd,off the wall,insane shit like Occam's Razor and a totally absurd "China" analogy that has insane criteria and irrational demands. Your "No China" case and "Illegal Shotgun from a Picture" case would be laughed at by all intelligent people who know better. Neither case would ever make it into a courtroom. People have tried this bullshit by attempting to say There was no Holocaust.You know there was a Holocaust,don't you?

 

I will answer your "7 ft tall man in a yellow jumpsuit burglary question" with a, NO they do not have to release him.

For your information LEO can stop,identify and question anyone fitting that description and anyone else in the area that they believe is connected to the crime. Look up Probable Cause.

 

I hope this little walk down the garden path gives you that little 'uncomfortable' feeling one gets when one knows they're being idiotic and incorrect.

Sorry to break your hopes, I do not have that uncomfortable feeling. How do you know so much about that feeling? Do you get it often?

That gun could be legal or illegal, but none of us will ever know for sure without someone giving more facts or proof.

Even if it was illegal when pictured, SO WHAT, BIG DEAL. LEO would need more evidence to take action against them.

Members dreamed of someone like Stoneycreek making a Knoxx magazine for their Saiga 12ga and you called Stoneycreek Dumbfu_ks. Nice One! You had to prove a point of what you thought you knew before thinking about it. Like calling an employer a Dumbfu_k before they figure bonus checks.

I expect your next post to have more bullshit,off the wall crap,absurd analogies,name calling, insults and propaganda.This site sums it all up. http://www.propagandacritic.com/articles/ct.wg.name.html

[Bvamp 604]

pyle, thanks for getting the topic back on target. I couldnt figure out how to do that.

[Bvamp 604]

oh, ace, regardless of if it IS parted out or ISNT parted out, they WILL come take you away and your gun to MAKE SURE its parted out. that is a reasonable assumption that it is original russian parts.

[McUZI 1]

Wo Hoo!

It's another 100,000 word acetomatoco post!

 

Because you never heard of anyone putting US parts into a Saiga Sporter Configuration or paying the DD $200 Tax for one

You CAN'T register a Saiga 12 as a 'DD', fucking moron.

And as far as the whole US parts thing, again we get into the 'most unlikely scenario in the face of the most likely possibility.

Learn what the hell you are talking about before talking about it.

 

(mcuzi)

Im sorry that you have not understood my point although it has been quite obvious from the beginning. From the beginning the point has been: That from a picture no one can positively say, 100% without a doubt, that the pictured shotgun is illegal or legal. (Except a Fool)

 

Here is a multiple choice test similiar to ones we see in school.

Problem 1) Looking at the Stoneycreek picture of a Saiga Sporter 12 ga shotgun with a 10 rd Knoxx Drum magazine give the best answer.

A ) It's Legal

B ) It's Illegal

C) The legality or illegality is unknown

 

D) The legality or illegality is unknown, but there is substantial reasonable doubt as to it's legality.

 

Anyway

Blah blah blah blah blah blah....

I have questioned you with normal possibilities (Foreign Parts Count and different types of normal gun owner/Mfg/FFL paperwork) and you have defended yourself  and attacked with absurd,off the wall,insane shit like Occam's Razor and a totally absurd "China" analogy that has insane criteria and irrational demands. Your "No China" case and "Illegal Shotgun from a Picture" case would be laughed at by all intelligent people who know better. Neither case would ever make it into a courtroom. People have tried this bullshit by attempting to say There was no Holocaust.You know there was a Holocaust,don't you?

 

Can you prove to me there is a China?

That's what I was asking.

Since we are knee deep into hypotheticals based on your own direction of this debate, you cannot be dismissive of mine and expect me to entertain yours.

 

Thus, I still ask you to prove to me there is a China.

 

I will answer your "7 ft tall man in a yellow jumpsuit burglary question" with a, NO they do not have to release him.

For your information LEO can stop,identify and question anyone fitting that description and anyone else in the area that they believe is connected to the crime. Look up Probable Cause.

BUT THEY CAN'T PROVE IT WAS HIM!

Why should we allow police to detain him when there is a possibility that there was another 7 Foot Tall man wearing a yellow jumpsuit who was in that same area!

Are you suggesting that we allow the police to trample everyones rights without any proof!

 

(I'm sure you can see where i'm going with this)

 

Anyway, there is substantial 'probable cause' for one to suspect that those aren't US parts given that no such parts exist.

 

You are knocking yourself out with your own argument here.

 

Blah blah blah blah blah blah....

 

Members dreamed of someone like Stoneycreek making a Knoxx magazine for their Saiga 12ga and you called Stoneycreek Dumbfu_ks. Nice One! You had to prove a point of what you thought you knew before thinking about it. Like calling an employer a Dumbfu_k before they figure bonus checks.

 

Are you a betting man?

Why don't you call Stoney Creek Armory and ask them.

Don't levy the most unlikely scenario to justify your position.

 

Call Stony Creek Armory and ask them.

Edited October 11, 2005 by McUZI

[Bvamp 604]

china exists because TV told me it does. theres your fucking proof.

[Bvamp 604]

and Mc? you said:

 

"Are you suggesting that we allow the police to trample everyones rights without any proof!"

 

to which I will tell you this with total fact.

 

they do whatever the fuck they feel like anyway. they just see it as "how much do you have to not make shit stick to you".

 

its all about money and who has the bigger gun in the good old USA. its no secret, though, nothing new there.

[acetomatoco 0]

mcuzi

I stand corrected and made a mistake about registering a Saiga 12 as a DD, My thoughts wandered to a Saiga Short barreled shotgun (NFA weapon) of which this is not.

The foreign parts count argument still applies.

 

Hey Whats Up? You changed your answer from:

B ) Illegal

to

D) The legality or illegality is unknown, but there is substantial reasonable doubt as to it's legality

This answer is better than your first statement B ) it's illegal

 

Can you prove to me there is a China?

That's what I was asking.

Since we are knee deep into hypotheticals based on your own direction of this debate, you cannot be dismissive of mine and expect me to entertain yours.

Thus, I still ask you to prove to me there is a China

Again your Insane "No China Case" would be proved wrong by all the intelligent people in this world that know better from history and current events. Poor analogy, It's common knowledge There is a China and anyone that says there isn't would be laughed at by the majority that know it exists even with your idiotic restrictions.Give it up.

 

BUT THEY CAN'T PROVE IT WAS HIM!

Why should we allow police to detain him when there is a possibility that there was another 7 Foot Tall man wearing a yellow jumpsuit who was in that same area!

Are you suggesting that we allow the police to trample everyones rights without any proof!

I am not suggesting that we allow the Police to trample everyones rights without any proof.

It's obvious that you know little about probable cause.The courts/legal system have ruled what constitutes probable cause and have ruled what Officers can and cannot do.They don't need complete proof at the time they initiate the stop. With probable cause they have the right to stop,identify and question any and all suspects that fit the description. During the stop they are questioning suspects and witnesses to gather facts. Once they determine they have enough facts to prove the case they can then make the arrest.

 

Anyway, there is substantial 'probable cause' for one to suspect that those aren't US parts given that no such parts exist.

No such parts exist? You are guessing again.

 

In this day and age many things are not what they appear to be.

If a car has a pulled ignition switch can we say? That it is a stolen car. No, not until we get more facts.

Anything is possible or probable but that does not make it illegal.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Being as Stonycreek is licensed to make LEO weapons IIRC, such a thing with all imported parst should be ok. Installation on a civi-owned S-12 without compliance parts is another matter.

 

Chill, guys.

 

I'm not saying Stonycreek did this at all, or that they had to, but I could hook you guys up with modified G2 FCGs for unconverted Saigas, replacing three parts with US ones (the trigger would still be foreign but the sear, the former trigger, would be US.) That and a US gas piston by Hotbarrel from Gunco would, IIRC, do it for the S-12. All of the above exist already.

[Bvamp 604]

I am glad that we got so many saiga shotguns in country before this ACTUALLY became an issue. earlier, there were such things as imported high caps, imported parts, etc.

 

this wraithmaker and mike davidson drum will force them to make a decision. I guess it is worth it at this point, but I cant say that im ecstatic about it all. the saiga shotguns FAR OUTCLASS thier rifle predecessors in a very big way. it is a shame to deprive future owners of ample supplies of this fine russian weapon. drum highcap or not.

[csmw 98]

Being as Stonycreek is licensed to make LEO weapons IIRC, such a thing with all imported parst should be ok.

 

SC is not licensed to make LEO weapons (or other weapons), as they are not a licensed manufacturer or dealer.

[Eric Pate 478]

I'm sold. I no longer believe in China.

[micah360 6]

Me either!

 

That was a pretty entertaining thread too.

[6500rpm 670]

Take a good look at the dates, almost two years to develope a 10 round stick and a drum mag.....lots of other innovation too.

Ten years from now we may find ourselves wishing there is no China, McUzi was mostly entertaining, often full of shit but he had a way with words as you can see that could make most people insane if you were on the other side of the debate. As for Jeff at Stoney, I can only guess at why the change of heart two years later, but you can bet your ass he was pissed at the time this thread was started.

[csmw 98]

Jeff at Stoney, I can only guess at why the change of heart two years later

 

 

From someone that has made drum magazines for amost 20 years, don't believe the "ATF shut us down" BS

He couldn't figure it out, and backpeddled, thats all.

Edited July 18, 2007 by C&S Metall-Werkes

[jaak 0]

i bet i can piss further into the wind then you can

[Eric Pate 478]

I would like to see some material evidence of this "piss" and "wind" as you call them.

They may not exist either.

[csmw 98]

If anyone wants to believe ATF shut-down the SC knox drum...

 

I am not dissing on SC, I just don't like BS when it comes to this stuff.

[inparidel 4]

If the banning of 20 round drums or such like it make me able to use these fine guns now and with my grandkids in the future. . .I am shitless happy! I love these guns, and some moron making 2K before they are banned is not my idea of a good idea. Woo Hoo! !

Edited July 18, 2007 by inparidel

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Damn I miss ol McUzi sometimes...

[BattleRifleG3 16]

My position is that there will be a heck of a lot more trouble if we ASK ATF to make a ruling than if we do what is not prohibited by law and shoot responsibly.

 

I made the same analogy in another thread. If you're doing nothing wrong, but your neighbor calls the cops on you because he doesn't like you, the police are still going to tell you to do something different so they can't be accused of ignoring the issue.

 

So DON'T call the ATF and demand a ruling on a magazine combination. This isn't a technical issue like what does and doesn't count as a receiver. This is something that is not prohibited by law unless they say it is, a blank check they have ONLY with shotguns under the NFA.

 

So please don't prod the ATF. Prodding the ATF is probably the quickest way to get an unfavorable ruling.

Edited July 19, 2007 by BattleRifleG3

[MikeD 541]

My position is that there will be a heck of a lot more trouble if we ASK ATF to make a ruling than if we do what is not prohibited by law and shoot responsibly.

 

I made the same analogy in another thread. If you're doing nothing wrong, but your neighbor calls the cops on you because he doesn't like you, the police are still going to tell you to do something different so they can't be accused of ignoring the issue.

 

So DON'T call the ATF and demand a ruling on a magazine combination. This isn't a technical issue like what does and doesn't count as a receiver. This is something that is not prohibited by law unless they say it is, a blank check they have ONLY with shotguns under the NFA.

 

So please don't prod the ATF. Prodding the ATF is probably the quickest way to get an unfavorable ruling.

That's a big plus one. Very well said and should be easy to understand the way you worded it. A big reason not to ask for a ruling on a combination is because nothing like it exists for shotguns. And it would be a lot easier for them to stop the harassing calls to their office by deeming the shotgun a dd rather than trying to get it wrote into the "DD law" by congress, which is what would have to be done to make a "ruling" on a saiga/drum combination.

[Eric Pate 478]

Damn straight! +1