SHTF stockpiling craziness

[timy 1,185]

The way I see it, the only way you will survive this (yet another SHTF scenario) is to band together with a substantial number of like minded individuals in order to fend off the the hoards of former government assistance recipients. This won't insure your survival of course but will spike the odds tremendously in your favor. To try to bunker down on your own or try to go mobile is folly but 20/30/40 (or more) people with guns and food on your side will probably get you through the point where the majority of the non-prepared either get killed or starve to death.

 

The only alternative I can see to this approach is to move to the remotes of Canada and keep yourself hidden. That might work too but would be a lonely lifestyle.

Luckily, we live out of town on a dead end road, and the neighbors are either family or adopted family that are like minded. We all look after each other, keep plenty of food , supplies, and ammo on hand because we like to grow gardens, and shoot... a lot! Luckily for us, our adopted son is an engineer with a wealth of knoledge, I am a jack of all trades, and a gunsmith, and his wife is a P.A. She keeps a nice supply of medical supplies on hand and the experience to use it. And if worse comes to worse, we have our farm in the mountains in a VERY tight knit community of like minded people that are mostly related to me and they take care of their own.

So, I am not worried about a SHTF situation. We have the will to survive, and if we don't, well, I know where I'll be after I take my last breath.

 

Your setup sounds good and is pretty much what I was talking about. Good for you and yours.

 

The only thing I'll further add to this thread is that it would be better to be as far away from large population centers as possible in the event of a long term scenario. If we lose our (taken for granted) modern agriculture infrastructure the population will downsize to adjust to the food supply. That's simply inevitable, and the adjustment will be violent and chaotic to the extreme.

[unclejake 428]

I almost posted in this thread two or three times already but didn't because I hesitate to jump into a conversation that is 100% opinion about a situation that may or may not occur and if it does it could be a wide range of scenarios.

 

But one point the OP made I disagree with is the idea that the unkown threat will choose to "wait out" a location where it is known the occupants have the ability to fire or return fire. There will be plenty of "targets" that will have little or no defense at all and it's hard to imagine the intruder thinking "I'll wait til they run out of ammo or just die". Then as now the criminal with have to ask themselves if they think there is anything behind the bullets worth dying for.

 

They'll move on to easier targets and there will be plenty of them.

Squishy, you ain't but about four hours south of us, so, if you can make it up here....just sayin.

[Squishy 1,149]

Squishy, you ain't but about four hours south of us, so, if you can make it up here....just sayin.

 

Thanks Jake, that's right neighborly of you. Ideally I'd like to get to where my family in NC is which is about the same time wise. But if anything goes down it would depend on the details as to whether traveling any appreciable distance will be possible. Frankly, I'm not one of these people who think what we all talk about here is imminent. But as I've said before, with regard to some things you don't prepare according to what is likely but what is possible.

[unclejake 428]

Squishy, you ain't but about four hours south of us, so, if you can make it up here....just sayin.

 

Thanks Jake, that's right neighborly of you. Ideally I'd like to get to where my family in NC is which is about the same time wise. But if anything goes down it would depend on the details as to whether traveling any appreciable distance will be possible. Frankly, I'm not one of these people who think what we all talk about here is imminent. But as I've said before, with regard to some things you don't prepare according to what is likely but what is possible.

I'm the same way, but with the way the world is now, ya never know. I never thought back in my youth that I would have seen some of the things that have happened come to pass. I hope that none of us in our lifetimes, EVER see anything like we talk about happen, but I'm afraid that when/if they do, it'll be after our generation has gone and there isn't the resistance that we have born in us for them to contend with. That's why it's so important for those with children and grandchildren to teachc them about the real history of the world and this country, and what may happen. And also for us older generation to pass down our skills as gardeners, trappers, hunters, and tinkerers to the next generations so they won't be left in the dark, so to speak, if and when those skills are needed most!

[Brian M1 50]

Haha! oh boy. Listen guys... Yes, I work for DHS, NO I'm not interested in your guns. My thing is counter terrorism. I could care less what you have (and IMHO, the more arms in peoples hands, the better threat we are to fight oppressors). I merely stated my occupation because a "certain" poster accused me of being a child who plays video games all day because he (?) is ignorant and thinks he (?) knows people based on posts. I was (politely) letting him (?) know I am older (not his "son"), and a professional (as well as security clearance to sensitive intel).

I am happy that people had fun with this post! I just wanted to plant seeds of thought as to the "what if's" if SHTF. I'm not against "stockpiling" (I WISH I has the $ to do so), but wanted people to think of the OTHER aspects of survival and that weapons, alone, are not the key. No DHS scamery (sounds like a G. Bush word!) here, just a shooter like you guys, sharing some thoughts!

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

Hey Y'all, if you did not clue in, I be the "certain" poster that put the bee in the bonnet. Brian, dude, don't be so sensitive. Okay, so you REALLY know your stuff, wow I bet you even have a TS-SCI with a whole lot of letters that follow and work in a SCIF. Gotta say, I sleep better knowing there are those like you standing guard.

 

P.S. since you don't seem to understand the ribbing, please let me explain; After the first two sentences, all that followed was sarcasm. I really did not mean it. I feel the DHS is a redundant organisation that should be done away with immediately.

[Brian M1 50]

Hey Y'all, if you did not clue in, I be the "certain" poster that put the bee in the bonnet. Brian, dude, don't be so sensitive. Okay, so you REALLY know your stuff, wow I bet you even have a TS-SCI with a whole lot of letters that follow and work in a SCIF. Gotta say, I sleep better knowing there are those like you standing guard.

 

P.S. since you don't seem to understand the ribbing, please let me explain; After the first two sentences, all that followed was sarcasm. I really did not mean it. I feel the DHS is a redundant organisation that should be done away with immediately.

Well thanks for that (backhanded) apology. Much appreciated. I'll try not to take you seriously in the future (not that I ever did).

As far as what you think about DHS, I could care less. It has nothing to do with the topic.

btw, DHS "umbrella's" Customs, TSA, Border Patrol, Immigration, ICE, Air Marshal's, etc. (all of which, I think most would agree, are quite important).

Edited July 2, 2012 by Brian M1

[Groovy Mike 36]

2 points to the OP - you don't need to put all your ammo in one place.

 

And lessons from Hollywood movies - "There is nothing to fear but fear itself, and running out of ammo." and "I don't mind getting shot, but I don't want it to be because I wasn't shooting back!"

 

Beyond that here's something I published nearly a decade ago but it seems worth sharing again, even if the prices quoted below have already doubled!

 

How much ammo should I have?

 

 

First and foremost I am a firm believer in “Buy it cheap and stack it deep.” I mean – c’mon, what other useful yet consumable item has 100+ year shelf life? Can you ever have too much ammo? Answer – of course not! And yet there are practical considerations. Most of us do not have the funds to buy ammo by the pallet for every cartridge we wish to keep on hand. Therefore, we must prioritize. Part of doing that is deciding how much of any given caliber (i.e. cartridge) is “enough” even if it is just “enough for now.” The basis for deciding how much is enough hinges on three questions:

 

 

* What is the intended use?

 

* How many people are you stocking ammo for?

 

* How long before you expect to resupply?

 

 

If you can answer these questions, then how much ammo to acquire and store will be obvious. Let’s eliminate the last question first. How long before resupply? Question: Do you think that an ammunition shortage or significant price appreciation is likely at any time in the future? I do. There is no political will to stop an ammunition manufacturing tax, or ammunition import tariff. I will leave that statement to stand on its own merits because I hesitate to give the gun grabbers any more confidence than they already have. Suffice to say that we shooters would vote the incumbents out of office during the next election. But even if we did so, governments are revenue sucking machines. No such tariff would ever be likely to be repealed. The domestic supply of cheap ammunition will evaporate over night just as it did for the steel core ammunition banned from import by executive order in the 1980s. Those cartridges which sold for 10 cents per round then, are now worth $1 each if you can find them.

 

 

Is it already too late? Popular 7.62x39 is already back ordered for up to six months at most suppliers. This backlog has been in place for months. I have not yet heard a reasonable explanation. If you agree that buying when a product costs less is better than buying at a higher price, or if you agree that a future ammunition shortage is likely - you probably want to store enough ammunition to last you at least a decade.

 

 

How many people are you stocking ammo for? Let’s start with yourself as the primary shooter and you can double the amount if you have a spouse who is an active shooter, triple if you have a child, etc. But for now, let’s consider just one shooter and let the rest of the math follow along in multiples of our one shooter calculations.

 

 

Now, what is the intended use? If you are the kind of hunter who fires only one or two shots a year, you probably aren’t concerned with storing ammunition anyway. If you are a recreational shooter (backyard plinker or competitive sportsman) you can calculate your usual usage based on how much shooting you typically do. Fifty cartridges per weekend might be considered a reasonable amount. Competitive shooters will easily burn through ten times that, but Jr. who goes through a box of 22 cartridges in an afternoon of tin can punching, or Joe who throws 50 shells on the skeet range is probably more typical. Some of us shoot more than that in one sitting (especially with high capacity magazines) but we may only shoot once per month. 200 cartridges one weekend per month works out to the same monthly total as 50 cartridges per weekend. So we’ll go with that estimate and you can modify the conclusion to reflect your own habits.

 

 

Fifty per weekend = 2,600 cartridges per year. A mere decade’s supply would be an unbelievable TWENTY SIX THOUSAND CARTRIDGES!!! But don’t be scared by the sticker shock when you start thinking about the investment required to put up 26,000 factory loaded cartridges for your 300 Win Mag. Chances are good that most of those cartridges will be pistol loads or 22 rim fire. In addition, reloading ammunition represents a huge potential cost savings. About half my shooting is done with 22 rimfire ammo. My son and I fire about 100 cartridges per month in one or two sittings. The total monthly cost for this is a mere $2 per month. I ask you – what provides more father/son entertainment per dollar? At a rate of one 550 round “brick” of ammo per paycheck it would take me less than a year to stockpile a full ten year supply of 13,000 cartridges. Let me say that again, if I bought just one brick of 22 ammunition per paycheck, I’d have a ten year supply of 22 ammo on hand before a year was up. As of this writing my local Wal-Mart has the best local price on 22LR ammunition. They offer both Federal and Remington brand hollow point, copper washed, loose packed cartridges in boxes of 550 for less than nine dollars per box including the sales tax. The grand total for a ten year supply would be $212 for twenty three 550 round boxes. That’s not a huge investment but you might get some unwanted attention if you take home that much ammunition at once. I’d recommend picking up one or two bricks per month and rotating your purchases between three or four stores. The remainder of my shooting is mostly centerfire rifle ammunition. For simplicity’s sake let’s assume that they are all 308 cartridges. If I buy in 500 round cases of full metal jacket (FMJ) ammunition or reload soft point hunting loads the cost is less than 20 cents per cartridge ($20 per month). The current price for FMJ 308 ammunition is $100 per 500 cartridges. Buying in multi-case lots or reloading may lower your cost to nearly half that. Buying a case per month is an option, or even twice a year. If you buy a thousand round case above your daily use twice per year it would take six years to collect a ten year supply. If you have the financial resources to buy thirteen cases at once then you can be geared up immediately.

 

 

 

 

Before we leave the topic of intended use, consider that if (God forbid) your family needs to defend your retreat from armed attackers, you may exhaust an enormous amount of ammunition very, very quickly.

 

 

When can you expect resupply? In the case of continued price hikes, never at a better price. In the case of a ban, never at any price. There will never be a better time to buy.

 

 

Conclusions: If you can answer the three questions of: what use? how many? and how long before resupply? You can tweak the above examples to match your own objectives. They key concept is that stocking up now, to take advantage of a buyers’ market is prudent. The first step is recognizing that you have a need to store ammunition. The second is recognizing that this is the time to buy. The third is deciding how much you need.

 

 

What should we do? There is only one answer. Buy now. Buy for the ammo you plan to expend in backyard plinking. Buy for the ammo you plan to shoot or reload next year. Buy for the hunting loads that you plan to expend in the next few years to practice with for each season. Buy what you feel is prudent for self defense. Buy today, because tomorrow may be too late. If you don’t, who will arm the next generation of shooters – or for that matter the hunters coming of age in the next decade? We owe it to our children. If the sort shortage that I am talking about occurs, you will have invested in a commodity that has a hundred year shelf life at a fraction of the replacement value.

 

Reality check: Let’s take a moment to double check the reasonableness of my conclusions. Is a ten year supply of ammo really necessary? Is it worth the financial investment? Yes, if God forbid, you need that ammunition to feed or defend your family, you would gladly have paid ten times the cost in retrospect. But what if I’m wrong? What if I am running in circles yelling that the sky is falling? What if no ban or price hike happens in the next five or ten or twenty years? Will you lose anything at all by buying a commodity that you will use later? Quite to the contrary – if no change in the supply or demand for ammunition occurs, but inflation continues unabated (let’s assume just 2% inflation per year to be conservative) your investment appreciates 10% in monetary value in just five years. You probably would not earn 2% interest on funds in a savings account. If your salary did not go up every year you would be losing purchasing power. So even by this conservative estimate, you have nothing to lose. At the very worst, you invest money in a hobby that you love and retain the ability to defend those you care about. That sounds like money well spent to me – even if nothing happens.

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

Well thanks for that (backhanded) apology. Much appreciated. I'll try not to take you seriously in the future (not that I ever did).

As far as what you think about DHS, I could care less. It has nothing to do with the topic.

btw, DHS "umbrella's" Customs, TSA, Border Patrol, Immigration, ICE, Air Marshal's, etc. (all of which, I think most would agree, are quite important).

 

Ouchy, you don't play nice. As I said; "REDUNDANT" and useless -- just another group of overpaid Government leeches bleeding the taxpayers. I am sure that "Umbrellaing" is a very necessary function (NOT). What would all those other orgs do without DHS? Probably a lot more -- like maybe enforcing the immigration laws of this country???? DHS = Obama's lapdogs that need to be kicked to the street ASAP!

 

You almost make things too easy...

[unclejake 428]

As of this writing my local Wal-Mart has the best local price on 22LR ammunition. They offer both Federal and Remington brand hollow point, copper washed, loose packed cartridges in boxes of 550 for less than nine dollars per box including the sales tax.

Boy, prices are better at your Wal Mart than mine! Ours averages $13-15 per box...but stil a real deal or bang for the buck, when you consider how much can be done with the lowly 22 LR round! You can harvest anything from squirrels to deer with them if it was a SHTF situation. I do not advise nor condone using the round to take deer in normal situations, but with proper shot placement, it WILL take them! Seen it too many times. My grandpa used to guide bear hunts for the Govt in the mtns of Western N.C. for foreign Dignitaries and such and used a Ruger Mark 1 to dispatch wounded bears, and I have seen the pics of some of them, they weren't cubs!

[thebuns1 4,323]

a good .22lr should be in everyones inventory.

[Live2Ride 12]

We have a plan and supplies to last long enough. We have (like others) a place to go, where many of us will be if anything ever happens. we all have many different skills and the place is out far enough to be able to defend effectively.

Only a couple of us have been in the military, but all of us have seen what a lot of people would call combat. We are all alive, so no sideways glock shooters on our team.

There is a defense plan, I would not want to be the person trying to get our stuff.

 

IMO, not being prepared is very sheepish, and I am by no means a sheep.

Edited July 2, 2012 by Live2Ride

[master of the bush 17]

Dept. of homeland insecurity...so tell us, should we be stocking up on white pillow cases also so we can surrender to whomever?

 

I store extra provisions because I can (for now) and I do so because it's necessary in my part of the world. You can store a 50-rd box of .22 lr if that suits your fancy. Hope that works out for you. LOL!!

[kevinfreel 215]

The ammo means nothing without mags to put it in. Any good deals on 223 anywhere? I'd rather get killed sitting on too much ammo than killed while curled up crying because I was to stoopid to keep more than a 22 and a 10 round magazine around. Most civilians like me don't have the luxury of knowing that in a day or two or a week or a month from now a c-130 or Chinook is gonna do a low and slow over my house and shit out a pallet of rations and ammo. I may die early on if something happens but that certainly doesn't mean I wont plan for a long term.

[BpS12 512]

Simple answer....

Those who dont' have, will do everything they can to take what others have and will either steal it or kill for it. Either way, those that don't have will be the Zombies killing or makeing Zombies(have nots) of others.

 

Extra stuff can be bartered, so it's not a waste. In ANY situation, "Normalization" will eventually settle in. We have to but look to all the Third World upheavals.

 

Besides, it REALLY sucks to realize you didn't have enough of what ever, when you REALLY need it the most.

[zenman223 460]

Dept. of homeland insecurity...so tell us, should we be stocking up on white pillow cases also so we can surrender to whomever?

 

If you plan on surrendering,

 

I however do not

[chunga 31]

The ammo means nothing without mags to put it in. Any good deals on 223 anywhere? I'd rather get killed sitting on too much ammo than killed while curled up crying because I was to stoopid to keep more than a 22 and a 10 round magazine around. Most civilians like me don't have the luxury of knowing that in a day or two or a week or a month from now a c-130 or Chinook is gonna do a low and slow over my house and shit out a pallet of rations and ammo. I may die early on if something happens but that certainly doesn't mean I wont plan for a long term.

 

K-Var has a special going on Circle 10's right now for the holiday. My favorite.

[socom688 217]

Short term: holding down the homestead of fine. It's SHORT TERM. You will be saved, and if you have enough food and supplies for a few months, you are golden. There wont be gangs shooting up your house to get the shit you have, and if you have a lot of ammo and guns to fire back, most of them will die so unless they are dumbshits, that wont happen. It goes against logic to suggest that in any short term situation, staying put is the wrong thing to do.

 

Long term: Use a gun when necessary, otherwise use a bow and arrows, snare traps, knives and hatchets. .

 

People wont be running around in biker chain gangs like in the movie, which seems to be what the OP thinks. They will not be staking out property for months on end, and anybody with half a brain will leave populated areas when the SHTF scenario starts anyways. In the mountains, one has to live off the land. It would be nothing like the movies...

 

I'm just sick of seeing these ridiculous SHTF scenarios. Honestly, if SHTF, I hope whoever is dumb enough to do the crazy things I have read about on the forums, do so! That way natural selection takes over and they eliminate themselves from the survival equations, and leave more for me

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

That way natural selection takes over and they eliminate themselves from the survival equations, and leave more for me

 

+1 on natural selection

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

Ahhh but what will rise to the top? Will it be the cream or the scum? The way the society seems to be degenerating, I am not hopeful, ergo my need for ammo and weapons. Call me paranoid but I still feel the need to be able to protect me and mine.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Ahhh but what will rise to the top? Will it be the cream or the scum? The way the society seems to be degenerating, I am not hopeful, ergo my need for ammo and weapons. Call me paranoid but I still feel the need to be able to protect me and mine.

 

theres nothing paranoid about it odd man. the real paranoid ones are the assbags calling all the shots in D.C. you, me and others here live in the now. theres no telling what the future has in store, but ill take my chances with my guns, guts and love for freedom and desire to protect my friends/family and property, hence the need for MORE ammo.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

 

"YOU don't need to stockpile ammo while the Department of Homeland Security just ordered the same amount of ammo used during the first year and a half of the Iraq War to use against U.S. citizens.... cough cough... I mean train."

[G O B 3,516]

Ammo is a wonderful thing to have, but what about food and shelter? If the disruption of power and fuel lasts thru a winter, how many will die of exposure because they ran out of fuel in February? How many here have hand tools, or even know the difference between a cross cut and a rip saw? Bits and hand drills? Sooner or later there will be a time when everything will revert to manual- as do it yourself by hand or go without. What can you do if the grid is NOT coming back? Those who have tools and know how can make electricity by turning a water heater tank and a lawn tractor engine into a steam engine - can you?

 

Not trying to be some smart ass here, just trying to get the idea out there that guns are just another tool. One that is worthless without ammo, but every other tool that we use daily is also useless without fuel or electricity - and sooner or later those power tools will need to be replaced by hand tools. An axe, shovel and machete will be of more use in survival than 20,000 rounds of ammo - AFTER the initial zombie horde has been eliminated.

[mavereq 4]

i always get a chuckle when i hear someone say "my friend in the military told me..."

 

i must have been on kp when they gave the block of instruction on how to prepare for a shtf scenario back in basic training.

[liberty -r- death 1,445]

Call me crazy...paranoid...what ever...

 

I'll keep prepping. Rather have it and not need it. Even if the shit never hits the fan I made need the supplies to live off of when I'm in my golden years and can't afford food due to inflation.

Edited July 5, 2012 by liberty -r- death

[thebuns1 4,323]

well said fellas...

[master of the bush 17]

Dept. of homeland insecurity...so tell us, should we be stocking up on white pillow cases also so we can surrender to whomever?

 

If you plan on surrendering,

 

I however do not

 

Your comprehension skills are lacking.

[zenman223 460]

Dept. of homeland insecurity...so tell us, should we be stocking up on white pillow cases also so we can surrender to whomever?

 

If you plan on surrendering,

 

I however do not

 

Your comprehension skills are lacking.

 

OR your communication skills are lacking.

You asked a question and I answered it. Dont be all pissy b/c you didnt like my answer.

[HarvKY 72]

Ammo is basically just a commodity - food, water, medical supplies, TPaper, and so on.

 

It makes sense to use dollar cost averaging with stuff like that. Buy continually and rotate, while accounting for your training needs.

 

IMO really nothingn wrong with having overly large ammo quantities stored, as long as one hasnt let other basic needs slide behind the curve.

 

Cheers

harv.

[Brian M1 50]

Well thanks for that (backhanded) apology. Much appreciated. I'll try not to take you seriously in the future (not that I ever did).

As far as what you think about DHS, I could care less. It has nothing to do with the topic.

btw, DHS "umbrella's" Customs, TSA, Border Patrol, Immigration, ICE, Air Marshal's, etc. (all of which, I think most would agree, are quite important).

 

Ouchy, you don't play nice. As I said; "REDUNDANT" and useless -- just another group of overpaid Government leeches bleeding the taxpayers. I am sure that "Umbrellaing" is a very necessary function (NOT). What would all those other orgs do without DHS? Probably a lot more -- like maybe enforcing the immigration laws of this country???? DHS = Obama's lapdogs that need to be kicked to the street ASAP!

 

You almost make things too easy...

Play nice?? Oh lord. Listen.. you obvously know nothing about govt. DHS is simply an "umbrella" for which other agencies fall under. It is NOTHING by itelf. NO, it is not after your guns, your ammo, your stash, etc. It is NOT an AGENCY (and thus can do NOTHING). For some reason.. people who don't understand the Gov't fear DHS. DHS is simply a means to UNITE other agencies (ex: customs, border patrol, TSA, FAMS, FFDO's, Immigration, etc etc). It was created to establish COMMUNICATION between the agencies (which previously had NONE) so as to UNITE them to work TOGETHER (under DHS, when something happens with ONE agency, it is relayed to ALL the other agencies under DHS). Nothing more, nothing less. It is NOT an agency (for the billionth time) it is a "Department" which OVERSEES agencies (and thus has no power within itself).

I don't know how this DHS fear was created (maybe from tv or movies??), but it's rediculous. Anyone who claimes to have any association with military would already know this. For those that don't... that's your answer. DHS is an "umbrella" that unites other agencies. Nothing more, nothiing less.

When 911 happened, the gov't realized thta agencies do NOT speak to each other. DHS was established to make sure they DO (in the future). That way ALL agencies (domestic security) fall under "one roof" (and thus share communication). Many people don't understand that (and I blame the media for not explaining it), and thus people fear it.

I wish the media (and gov't officials) would be more clear on what DHS is (and does), as it would put a lot of people at ease.

 

btw, "odd man out",... DHS was created PRIOR to Obama, and ecompasses the same domestic agencies that existed before (with exception to TSA/ FFDO's) as before DHS. No matter what umbrella they fall under, they are (and have been) here to stay.

Edited July 8, 2012 by Brian M1