Nala 0 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Hey all, I don't come here very often and when I do it's because I have the strong urge to get my very own SAIGA 12 or a S20. I've never shot one, but have handled a few and liked the way they shouldered and felt. Just about everything I've read about them is VERY positive, especially the custom Saiga's by Tromix and a host of other talented shops. What I would like to get your thoughts on is whether you all consider these shotguns to be the IDEAL Home Defense shotgun currently available today. I don't ask if they're PERFECT, because no weapon is that good. Are there any negative aspects of these shotguns that gives you pause or even concern about using them as your only HD shotgun? Are you TOTALLY, 100% content to have no other shotgun in your home available to you in an emergency? For me, the major concern that I think of when the S12 shotguns come to mind is that unwieldy magazine that hangs out the bottom. That, and the other BIGGER and even more awkward mags it uses, cannot be comfortable to move and conceal with. Seems as though it would be difficult to be stealthy with it as well, especially in the dark and under a great deal of stress. Like the kind of stress that you'd have if your life was possibly going to end or be impacted in a very serious and permanent fashion very soon. Those mags seem like they would make the weapon clumsy and easy to bump it into walls or get it caught on door edges, furniture, clothes or whatever might be in your way at that time. I've never handled one with a loaded magazine in it so I very well could be 100% DEAD WRONG. I hope I am cause that would make it much easier for me to convince myself to get one. It's the magazine issue that is what is both it's strongest quality and it's weakest point when compared to the traditional style shotguns we've all grown up with and used for decades and became comfortable with. If you happen to be assaulted by a horde of PO'ed Hell's Angels that mistake you for a MONGOL that ripped them off, then the S12 with those mags are the BEST SHOTGUN possible to have at your side, no doubt about it. I just don't know how comfortable I would be with it knowing that to get the total benefit of them I would have to use those BIG magazines. Maybe I am making a mountain out of a molehill. I'd like to hear from you all about this system and the questions I raised. I'd really like to be able to handle and shoot one, but I don't think my local range rents one. Maybe some shop here in Houston has one that I can rent and shoot and maybe I'll even get extra lucky and they'll have one in SBS cause that's how I would want mine if I ever get one. Also, if you don't mind, please address how well the S20 would work is that same role as compared to other typical shotguns. Would you rather have a S20 or a nice Mossberg 935spx, Benelli M2 Tactical or Remington 870 Express Tactical? I wouldn't mind having an S20 in SBS configuration either. Thanks everyone for your time and help. Nalajr Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 It really depends on what meets your needs are and what your expectations of the shotgun are. For me, I think the Saiga 12 is the perfect HD shotgun, but my needs and expectations are likely much different than yours. I don't have any experience with the S20, but aftermarket support for it is not as strong as it is for Saiga 12s. I have never bought one for that reason. Choose one and try it out. You could always sell it if you decide it isn't right for you. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 LOL 1. Yep... Hook line and sinker. 2. Get used to the mags. 3. Yes mine are definitely perfect for what I need them for. 4. I prefer not to have to choose. I have the S-20 and the S-12 AND the Vepr-12. Get some too you will NOT be disappointed. 5. (most important...) Screw a damn Mossberg, Benelli, or any other shotgun. Why bother with them when you can have the best? 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Unless you're prepared to work on or have the S12 worked on to make it reliable, I'd go with any one of the reputable, full length mag tube, tactical semi auto's that are out there. You get 9 shots out of these and can reload as you go. I was in love with my S12 until I came to the reality that they are not that practical in a self defense situation. The mags are too huge to easily pocket and the drums are just silly to carry around. I'm sure I will get the shit flamed outta me for this post. Bring it bitches. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 It all depends on your situation, needs and skills. The S-12 will be perfect for some, while a .22 semi-auto pistol will be perfect for others. Case in point, my Mom is "over 70" and smaller than me, and has arthritis in her thumbs. There's no way in hell she could comfortably handle an S-12, but she can shoot the center out of a target all day with her PK-22. She also has a youth-model .410 pump shotgun she's rather fond of. Works for me, and her. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gzus Kryst 53 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 If your willing to spend the money to make it the best it could be, then yes I cant think of a better shotgun to use as a home defense gun then a reliable magazine fed semi-automatic shotgun. spend the money to make it reliable, then to make it even better in your desired application (if allowed by state law) chop about 8 inches off that barrel and SBS it. evlblkwpns has an extreme version there in his avatar ( think that's his 6.5inch barrel lol) Having a basic conversion done for the PG alone will make the handling much improved then a SBS will allow you to move through doorways even better as far as the mags go, I only have the CSS Specs steel 8 rounders, but I don't see much of an issue as if your in a situation Your gun will be at the ready and the fact you have a large magazine sticking out the bottom shouldn't make much of a difference (and I don't find them that awkward anyway). Maybe it just me but I don't see any need to worry about concealing a home defense gun. The threat of the gun can sometimes be just as effective as the gun itself. and if not, well you still have the gun Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Unless you're prepared to work on or have the S12 worked on to make it reliable, I'd go with any one of the reputable, full length mag tube, tactical semi auto's that are out there. You get 9 shots out of these and can reload as you go. I was in love with my S12 until I came to the reality that they are not that practical in a self defense situation. The mags are too huge to easily pocket and the drums are just silly to carry around. I'm sure I will get the shit flamed outta me for this post. Bring it bitches. Not necessarily true John. They are usually pretty reliable with good ammo like they were designed to shoot in a firefight. Busting clays and blowing through tons of cheap birdshot for fun can be another story but really no big deal with a meager investment. Also there are plenty of extremely reliable custom built guns out there to be had. Then there is also the Vepr-12 which is a much better bargain than the S-12 now and already has most all the good features people want NIB. Again with a small investment in reliability upgrades to the internals, they too will run great on cheap shot. Mine even eats the el cheapo Winchester Universal crap like crazy even with the slight added weight of my left hand charging handle on the carrier. Only thing I did to it was re-profile and polish the bolt, carrier, and Tapco FCG. No other after market parts are on it besides the poly AK stock and AKM HGs. I seriously don't see the multitude of various capacity detachable mags & mini drums as any disadvantage. Opinions vary I guess. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Mullet Man 2,114 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 No they aren't perfect. No gun is. Its what works best for you. Bottom line. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Unless you're prepared to work on or have the S12 worked on to make it reliable, I'd go with any one of the reputable, full length mag tube, tactical semi auto's that are out there. You get 9 shots out of these and can reload as you go. I was in love with my S12 until I came to the reality that they are not that practical in a self defense situation. The mags are too huge to easily pocket and the drums are just silly to carry around. I'm sure I will get the shit flamed outta me for this post. Bring it bitches. We all have assholes, too. If your willing to spend the money to make it the best it could be, then yes I cant think of a better shotgun to use as a home defense gun then a reliable magazine fed semi-automatic shotgun. spend the money to make it reliable, then to make it even better in your desired application (if allowed by state law) chop about 8 inches off that barrel and SBS it. evlblkwpns has an extreme version there in his avatar ( think that's his 6.5inch barrel lol) Having a basic conversion done for the PG alone will make the handling much improved then a SBS will allow you to move through doorways even better as far as the mags go, I only have the CSS Specs steel 8 rounders, but I don't see much of an issue as if your in a situation Your gun will be at the ready and the fact you have a large magazine sticking out the bottom shouldn't make much of a difference (and I don't find them that awkward anyway). Maybe it just me but I don't see any need to worry about concealing a home defense gun. The threat of the gun can sometimes be just as effective as the gun itself. and if not, well you still have the gun Or you save your money and spend TIME doing all that, if you have the skills. You don't have to spend a lot of money unless you pay someone else to do what can be done yourself. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
csspecs 1,987 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Unless you're prepared to work on or have the S12 worked on to make it reliable, I'd go with any one of the reputable, full length mag tube, tactical semi auto's that are out there. You get 9 shots out of these and can reload as you go. I was in love with my S12 until I came to the reality that they are not that practical in a self defense situation. The mags are too huge to easily pocket and the drums are just silly to carry around. I'm sure I will get the shit flamed outta me for this post. Bring it bitches. I'd suggest a pump before most commercial semis. A saiga-12 with a little work can be very reliable. And my steel mags seem to fit in pockets just fine, provided your not wearing skinny jeans or anything silly. They are actually smaller than the Russian 8s 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 In 99% of HD scenarios, the party is over as soon as the first shot goes downrange. But the mag-fed shotgun gives you the versatility to implement a range of ammo from LTL to 000, to appropriately adjust your response to the threat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I have a number of shotguns to choose from, including many Saigas and V12's. But, for MY needs, an AR15 and a Glock 17 sit next to the bed. Ymmv. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Unless you're prepared to work on or have the S12 worked on to make it reliable, I'd go with any one of the reputable, full length mag tube, tactical semi auto's that are out there. You get 9 shots out of these and can reload as you go. I was in love with my S12 until I came to the reality that they are not that practical in a self defense situation. The mags are too huge to easily pocket and the drums are just silly to carry around. I'm sure I will get the shit flamed outta me for this post. Bring it bitches. We all have assholes, too. Is that the best you've got Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Unless you're prepared to work on or have the S12 worked on to make it reliable, I'd go with any one of the reputable, full length mag tube, tactical semi auto's that are out there. You get 9 shots out of these and can reload as you go. I was in love with my S12 until I came to the reality that they are not that practical in a self defense situation. The mags are too huge to easily pocket and the drums are just silly to carry around. I'm sure I will get the shit flamed outta me for this post. Bring it bitches. Not necessarily true John. They are usually pretty reliable with good ammo like they were designed to shoot in a firefight. Busting clays and blowing through tons of cheap birdshot for fun can be another story but really no big deal with a meager investment. Also there are plenty of extremely reliable custom built guns out there to be had. Then there is also the Vepr-12 which is a much better bargain than the S-12 now and already has most all the good features people want NIB. Again with a small investment in reliability upgrades to the internals, they too will run great on cheap shot. Mine even eats the el cheapo Winchester Universal crap like crazy even with the slight added weight of my left hand charging handle on the carrier. Only thing I did to it was re-profile and polish the bolt, carrier, and Tapco FCG. No other after market parts are on it besides the poly AK stock and AKM HGs. I seriously don't see the multitude of various capacity detachable mags & mini drums as any disadvantage. Opinions vary I guess. My comment was geared more toward being mag fed isn't the end all be all. If nine shots from a shotgun doesn't do the job for me then I'll move on to a different weapon. My 75 round 7.62 drum is much smaller and my 100 round 5.56 is even smaller yet than the S12 drum. I had fun with my S12 but don't miss it one bit. I have a Mossberg 500 that will do exactly what I need it to do. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Unless you're prepared to work on or have the S12 worked on to make it reliable, I'd go with any one of the reputable, full length mag tube, tactical semi auto's that are out there. You get 9 shots out of these and can reload as you go. I was in love with my S12 until I came to the reality that they are not that practical in a self defense situation. The mags are too huge to easily pocket and the drums are just silly to carry around. I'm sure I will get the shit flamed outta me for this post. Bring it bitches. We all have assholes, too. Is that the best you've got That's all I need, especially with the quote fail. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gzus Kryst 53 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I cant say a good pump is a bad idea, it's going to do what you expect it to do. But the OP asked "Is the SAIGA 12 or 20 the PERFECT Home Defense Shotgun??" And I think a Saiga SBS is in theory is better then a good pump. Due to the fact you can have a smaller gun and move through doors and hallways less restricted with out giving up round capacity. Simply my opinion As far as the CSS Spec mags go I can fit one in the sidepocket/hammer loop on my carpenter pants. so I imagine a back pocket or front pocket will also work Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Big John! 2,062 Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 Unless you're prepared to work on or have the S12 worked on to make it reliable, I'd go with any one of the reputable, full length mag tube, tactical semi auto's that are out there. You get 9 shots out of these and can reload as you go. I was in love with my S12 until I came to the reality that they are not that practical in a self defense situation. The mags are too huge to easily pocket and the drums are just silly to carry around. I'm sure I will get the shit flamed outta me for this post. Bring it bitches. We all have assholes, too. Is that the best you've got That's all I need, especially with the quote fail. I cant say a good pump is a bad idea, it's going to do what you expect it to do. But the OP asked "Is the SAIGA 12 or 20 the PERFECT Home Defense Shotgun??" And I think a Saiga SBS is in theory is better then a good pump. Due to the fact you can have a smaller gun and move through doors and hallways less restricted with out giving up round capacity. Simply my opinion As far as the CSS Spec mags go I can fit one in the sidepocket/hammer loop on my carpenter pants. so I imagine a back pocket or front pocket will also work Out of the box... The answer to the OP's question is a resounding NO! My 18" 500 with pistol grip gets around the house just fine. You guys have such a boner over the S12 that one would think this was an S12 forum. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Welll uhhhh...lol duhhh? Fuck a damn pumpmusket. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
horatio 515 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 IMHO i would say no to both. depending on the state you live in, if you did have the misfortune of confronting a home invader, if you had to go to court they will want to know why you felt the need to have a fully automatic machine shotgun that had a 200 round capacity magazine of heat seeking bullets. its all crap but its something you dont need to deal with when the sound of any good quality pump chambering will make any invader crap his pants. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 its all crap but its something you dont need to deal with when the sound of any good quality pump chambering will make any invader crap his pants. Cough *bullshit* cough 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
beefcakeb99 572 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 IMHO i would say no to both. depending on the state you live in, if you did have the misfortune of confronting a home invader, if you had to go to court they will want to know why you felt the need to have a fully automatic machine shotgun that had a 200 round capacity magazine of heat seeking bullets. its all crap but its something you dont need to deal with when the sound of any good quality pump chambering will make any invader crap his pants.where do people get this regurgitated bullshit? I'd like a citation. I use the s12 as hd shotgun about as often as I ever get to shoot home invaders heh. My pistol is on me almost 20 hours a day but the s12 stays ready with steel mags ready. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 20 rounds of #8 bird shot, 00 buck, or slug or what ever as fast as you can pull the trigger, NUFF SAID!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sunnybean 939 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Wait, what? Slugs and birdshot for home defense? I'm going with NO! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeremiahisnaked 64 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Short answer, yes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
horatio 515 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Perhaps my post was unclear- I apologize. The s12 when tuned is a very reliable and trustable platform. The ''crap" I'm referring to is the issues you have to deal with after a confrontation. We had a member here who was involved in an altercation. I'll look it up in a bit but I know his CC was held for quite some time while it was investigated. Many people don't understand the s12 ( hence the comment I made) therefore they fear it unnecessarily. Remember the pics of the "70" round drum post SH? I personally feel a good quality pump and some buckshot are highly adequate. No reason to have your s12 locked up. Flame me if you want Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RED333 1,025 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Wait, what? Slugs and birdshot for home defense? I'm going with NO! The reason for the "or what ever" part, to make everyone happy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jeremiahisnaked 64 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Oh no, pigs took my Saiga. Honey I've gotta build another one! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rs51085 136 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) Haven't posted here in a while but just thought what the heck. I love my s12/vepr12, and they are the shotguns I shoot the most because they are the most fun. Nothing like bump firing a 12 ga from your hip! That said I have a mossburg 500 and glock 26 by the bed for four reasons. 1. Money, I keep the s12 locked up in the safe so it can't get stolen when I am not there. I have about $1500 in my s12 and only $175 in the mossburg. If the mossburg gets stolen then I will just replace it with another. 2. Reliability, my s12 is the most reliable semi auto I have ever shot but I am not comfortable leaving one in the chamber with a full mag because of top round deformation, and I do not want to lock the bolt back due to the fact that one little bump could unintentionally chamer a round and go off. The mossburg has a full tube of ammo that won't get deformed, requires just one pump and is ready to go. And I have never expireneced any failures of any kind from it. It always does what it is supposed to. 3.you look a lot less crazy in court defending yourself with a mossburg than you do with a military grade magfed assault shotgun. 4. The glock is just for good measure and it leaves the house when I do so it ain't getting stollen. And if you add it up you can get both of these for the same price as one s12. That said If I didn't have a s12 it would be next on my to buy list. Edited May 11, 2014 by rogers 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronin38 2,117 Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 If your S-12 will go off from chambering a round, yinz gots issues! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rs51085 136 Posted May 12, 2014 Report Share Posted May 12, 2014 If your S-12 will go off from chambering a round, yinz gots issues! I guess what I meant is it would be ready to go off after the bolt slammed home, if you had pets or children you would understand where I was coming from. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.