Holy Grail found?

[BattleRifleG3 16]

There are many stages in production, and also many decisions that have to be made regarding resources. Something can be completely developed, and there still be significant production costs. As said earlier, credit charges can be disputed.

 

Part of taking orders for X amount is that he know she can sell X amount immediately after production. Also, the rate at which those orders are made can help him to know how fast to make them in the future.

 

For example, last winter I needed 5 firm orders in order to justify the shift to precision metalworking at the time. If I didn't get that many, I would have to wait until later. And before I could get to them again, out comes FBMG with their 308 mags. Good thing I didn't devote more resources to the project, and a good thing for many Saiga owners that they didn't irreversibly convert their rifles. Maybe I should have accepted the fewer orders, but with furniture orders coming in as fast as I'm making them, I'm not complaining.

 

The relation I'd say here is that in order to schedule appropriately, Z1500 needs to have a clear number for the first run. It makes it clear that folks need to order in order to make it happen. If folks have buyers remorse, they can resell the mags later.

 

Something the Saiga community needs to realize is that it is not as huge a market as we would like to think. Production runs are shorter than with other guns, and everyone wants something different. As a result, when someone is facing a major risk on our behalf, we have to work a little more like a team. My day job is in the plastics industry, and I can vouch that the investment in that sort of equipment makes a basic machine shop pale in comparison. We need to be cooperative with their efforts. We have to make their investment in us worthwhile. If not, no one will invest in us and we can forget about Saiga accessories.

Edited July 7, 2006 by BattleRifleG3

[topmaul 42]

BRG3 well said! I have never met Kevin but I trust him, and will give him the benifit of the doubt.

[Snoopdogg 0]

The dude (Z1500) is straight up.

Pre-orders with no charge until they ship. That's the way to do it, no one is out anything until product is on the way.

 

I am on one hand excited about the mags, but on the other hand am disapointed at the price. When this whole thing started out it was guestimated $30ish, then it ratcheted up to $60. I was planning to buy 20 (at the inititial guestimated price), but after thinking about current price-vs-enjoyment, I can only offord to get 2.

 

As the price kept increasing with each update, I kept hoping for dealer pricing to put the price back down to the original.

 

Before you guys pile on, I have no problem with Z1500 or his pricing. He looks to have made a top-notch product and much cheaper than the competition (Russian 8rd) so big props to him.

But,

I know what that mold costs (approximately) to have built overseas, and I know what the pieces cost (approximately) in material each production run, and knowing that I can't justify paying that amount of money for a pile of the mags.

I want them though, so I will buy a couple and be happy with that.

 

FWIW

Edited July 7, 2006 by snoopdogg

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I kid you not, there is a very good chance that there are a majority of if not already six figures invested into such a setup. $60/mag x 500 = $30k. This batch is only the beginning of what's needed in order to be profitable. And by profitable, I don't mean rolling in dough - I mean having food on the table and a roof over one's head.

[kmoore 3]

Plus you haven't paid Kevin for the risk of starting something new. You can NEVER measure risk,until hindsight kicks in.

 

Agree that it's depressing to watch "prices" rise, but they were never anything more than guesstimates anyways, based on the most current info available.

 

IIRC, Kevin reached a point where he needed to decide between 2 pc's joined (and earlier delivery and cheaper cost to make) vs a single pc (takes longer, costs more, more risk for him too). I'm sure I'm fuzzy on details but fundamentally this is crossroads he hit back in ~Jan.

 

I'm glad he took the "right way", tho I swear the wait ages me by the day lol.

 

Would I like some $30 mags? Of course. I don't know enough about business, but I'd guess that at some point it might become more profitable to sell at a lower cost. So, the question is would I wait for the lower cost... NO! I'm getting what I think I need/can afford at this pricepoint. If it goes down in the future, then I'll buy more as backups/replacements/big stage accessories.

[inparidel 4]

I don't know about anyone else but my charge card has not been billed and I placed the pre order 1 week ago. Get online and check your accounts. How can you say he is using our money to fund his manufacturing when the Charge accounts have not been billed?

 

Good point. That's info I lacked. Well, then. . . .I'll still wait for the reviews.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

If people wait to buy until the prices go down, they never will. People have to buy early on in order to justify the investment. Buy your first few mags at $60 each and then if the price goes down buy plenty more. The nature of the plastics industry is high equipment costs, fast production, not cheap but decent material costs - the fact that they don't then remove half the material they paid for is a big bonus.

 

If you buy five at $60 and they go down to $30, don't fool yourself to thinking "If only I waited I could have saed money." If you had waited, Z1500 would have starved to death and you'd be out of luck for any more mags.

 

Oh, and as far as price increases go, take one guess what the biggest ingredient of plastic is.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Figure it out?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Come on, you know, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Still not sure?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Think about it, hydrocarbons....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Come on, you took chemistry, right?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Give up?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You'll kick yourself....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, the main ingredient of plastics is...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

(one last chance to guess here...)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

PETROLEUM.

[Cesiumsponge 0]

I haven't seen petroleum-derrived thermoplastics or thermosetting polymers skyrocketing in cost...certainly not to the extent of steel and nonferrous metals. Certain types have always been dirt cheap to obtain (ie polyethylene, polystyrene, PVC, ABS, etc family) while some have always been stupidly epensive (teflon, torlon, G-class phenolics, etc). I just checked some material I've sourced in the past and prices haven't really changed much from since I last purchased them (two years ago)...so a doubling in price over a year (or however old this project is) can't be pinned on -just- that.

 

It might be due to additional operations and/or increased cycle times on the components, which can eat up money fairly quickly. Of course, its probably a number of things so it cannot be fingered to one singular reason. Machining is a very unstable business sometimes and its hard to make a predictable and repeatable profit. Quotes can and will change until you've finalized them. I can rant about all the bonehead stuff I've come across at our machine shop and there are a lot of places for mistakes that cost big money. I've seen several places scrap $50k+ orders because they screwed up one thing that made the part junk.

 

Also don't forget the guy needs to make a healthy profit to make it worth his while. He isn't going to end up selling in quantity like an SKS/AR/AK mag so making a dollar off each unit sold wouldn't cut it. But at the current going price and assuming it's durability matches that of genuine Saiga-12 mags, its a much better deal than the 8-rounders which are still skyrocketing (especially ebay and other places where they are unaware of the sources we have on the forum)

 

Of course, I'd rather be optimistic than pessimistic because I have some money riding on the line here

[DaGroaner 2]

I haven't seen petroleum-derrived thermoplastics or thermosetting polymers skyrocketing in cost...certainly not to the extent of steel and nonferrous metals. Certain types have always been dirt cheap to obtain (ie polyethylene, polystyrene, PVC, ABS, etc family) while some have always been stupidly epensive (teflon, torlon, G-class phenolics, etc). I just checked some material I've sourced in the past and prices haven't really changed much from since I last purchased them (two years ago)...so a doubling in price over a year (or however old this project is) can't be pinned on -just- that.

 

It might be due to additional operations and/or increased cycle times on the components, which can eat up money fairly quickly. Of course, its probably a number of things so it cannot be fingered to one singular reason. Machining is a very unstable business sometimes and its hard to make a predictable and repeatable profit. Quotes can and will change until you've finalized them. I can rant about all the bonehead stuff I've come across at our machine shop and there are a lot of places for mistakes that cost big money. I've seen several places scrap $50k+ orders because they screwed up one thing that made the part junk.

 

Also don't forget the guy needs to make a healthy profit to make it worth his while. He isn't going to end up selling in quantity like an SKS/AR/AK mag so making a dollar off each unit sold wouldn't cut it. But at the current going price and assuming it's durability matches that of genuine Saiga-12 mags, its a much better deal than the 8-rounders which are still skyrocketing (especially ebay and other places where they are unaware of the sources we have on the forum)

 

Of course, I'd rather be optimistic than pessimistic because I have some money riding on the line here

 

I'll agree that cost increases in plastics haven't kept pace with steel and copper but prices are way up from even a year ago. The virgin ABS I buy has gone from .49 a pound to 1.09 a pound in less than two years.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

then there are design changes and the waiting and extra costs that go with that...price of top quality springs having to be custom ordered...supply and demand...the LEO market...etc etc...

[pedal2alloy 206]

I'm not sure the mags should be made out of the virgin ABS. You don't want them to be too tight.

[osprey21 5]

I'm not sure the mags should be made out of the virgin ABS. You don't want them to be too tight.

LMAO!!

Edited July 8, 2006 by osprey21

[BattleRifleG3 16]

Figure $10 up for design improvements, $10 up for material cost increases, $10 up for increased R&D. I seem to recall the estimate being $40ish at the start anyway.

 

Not that any of us know jack squat about Z1500's economics, just that these scenarios make sense as one of many very reasonable explanations.

[Wakal 10]

Since some guy ( ) was charging $100 to assemble your two five-round mags into a functional 10/11 round magazine...and had a waiting list...I think $59/complete is pretty reasonable.

 

Virgin ABS too tight...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alex

[Snoopdogg 0]

I think some of you guys are misunderstanding my post. I am not dissing Z1500.

 

I am glad he made the mags.

I am glad he made them 10rd instead of 8.

I am glad he did such a great job, the mags look beautiful.

I hope he makes a lot of money.

 

With that said, I was looking forward to the mags being in the original $30-40 bracket and also the dealer discounts he was talking about.

Now it's $60. Over $70 with shipping.

 

My opinion,

Compared to the 8rd it is extremely cheap.

For $5-7 in material and parts, it is extremely expensive.

 

We have had several injection molds made over seas. Our last one was a 5-piece mold at least as complex as the 10rd mag's mold. Shopped around and got it built for $10K. Costing us less than $5 in material for all five pieces which uses more Nylon than the 10rounders.

If I remember correctly Z1500 partnered up with the mold guy. free mold for half the profits as I understand it. Good for him, cut his preproduction cost and lowered his monetary risk. But that isn't helping me as his retail is still pretty stiff.

 

I knew they were gonna go up in value, cause everytime there was a post, more than a few people kept throwing big dollar amounts they would pay, well, now we are paying.

When you are figuring charging X amount of money, and you have people screaming they will pay double, well then why not charge double? It all makes sense.

 

But, I personally can't justifying spending over $60 a mag (with shipping) for a 10K mold and $5-7 worth of materials, and zero labor in final product.

 

Make them cheap, sell them cheap and sell a ton.

Or sell them for a lot and don't sell as many.

I would have been happier with the latter. It doesn't matter cause it aint my call.

 

Like I said before, the mags are dynamite and I have to have some, just not as many as I had hoped. If I was rich I would definately buy 20. Since I am not rich, I'll be happy with two instead of twenty for a while.

Edited July 8, 2006 by snoopdogg

[Ben@AGP 0]

For those that placed your pre-orders, you'll be getting pieces from the first production batch. For those who didn't get their pre-orders in, you're not out of luck at all. The second run will be followed closely behind the first.

 

We do not charge for parts until they ship. For those who have pre-orders, you won't be charged until your order ships. Kevin and I have been in business in other industries for many years. We are a real company, with real employees, with a real location, that manufactures real parts. We're not here to screw anyone out of product. Yes, things are taking longer than we all expected, but we're close, really close.

 

We appreciate your patience.

[acetomatoco 0]

Saiga 5 rd mags have been anywhere from $35 a little over a year ago to about $55 before RAAC became the importer. 8 rd mags have been $80 to $125 depending on where you bought them and how much time and bullshit you had to wade through to get them. A business person has every right to charge more for a 10 rd than a 5rd and I have no problem with that. If anyone has a problem with that they can buy them from someone else that is making 10 rd mags or make them themselves. LOL

As consumers we always pay a liittle more for something that is larger or better than something that is smaller or of less quality. Regardless of manufacturing cost, any manufacturing company is going to price a 10rd mag higher than a 5 rd mag. Is it a reasonable price,I think so.

[KTR03 0]

I think Sony Playstation games are too expensive. Its just a disk. I think Cereal is too expensive, its just corn flakes... Gimme a break. Buy them or don't buy them. Speculating on someones costs, and business practices is pretty poor form. To those who say it should be cheaper and could be cheaper, I say awesome, do it and deliver it to market and I'll buy some.

[AKOK 4]

I belive they have set a fair price seeing they are the only game in town for 10 rd mags. Prices will adjust if competition comes in cheaper. $60 is a well thought out price point....right between the 5rd and 8rd russians. I ordered one and if the quality is as good as I expect it to be I will order several more in the second run.

[weaponx 18]

i bought 5 rd mags back in feb. of 05 for 75.00 each. x 3. yea dumb me ! but as i feel in the gun world its there one day ,banned the next. the 10 rd mags of kevin are very well priced ( to me anyway). yes i preordered 3. plus they look like they are built better then i could glue 2 5rds together and get. so kevin when i get them i am sure i will say u the mag man. as for conversions, tony u the man . just a shot out and my 2 cents. thanks !

[epsylum 0]

If my 3 work, I WILL be ordering more. I will probably buy 5+ to get the price break.

[TPABA 0]

I haven't been in here for a while, but you could definitely put me down for two of those. I'm a patient man, I just hope they're completed before the start of WWIII; chinese got 30round mags for their AK's. I need a couple mags like this to help even the odds.

[jgoler 0]

We've gotten use to cheap magazines because many firearms have huge government contracts

that specify jillions of magazines. 60 bucks just about covers my cost to fill my truck with gas. And once gone, I don't get to use that gas again, unlike a magazine.

 

I think it is great AGP has committed to this project. They haven't charged my credit card, and they know like I do that if card is charged with a non functional or non functional project, the company talks to

credit card company, not me. No real risk to me, really, but the principles of this company have been well known to this board for sometime. The benefit of doubt is worth the benefit.

 

Frankly it is amazing that people with companies like Tromix, AGP, etc. make these products for what is a relative minority of gun owners.

[DaGroaner 2]

But, I personally can't justifying spending over $60 a mag (with shipping) for a 10K mold and $5-7 worth of materials, and zero labor in final product.

 

How do you figure zero labor, you think an injection molding machine cranks out complete mags? The raw material needs to be off-loaded from a truck, it may require dehumidification to run properly and someone will have to check that out, the molds need to be hung, the machine needs to be loaded with raw material, the molded parts will probably need to have a little tit removed from the injection process and the magazines need to be assembled, checked for quality and packaged and we haven't even gotten into overhead like OSHA compliance, corporate/income taxes, EPA compliance, Worker's Comp, Payroll taxes and on and on and on... Zero labor my butt. You sound like a machine operator with a little bit of knowledge and that thinks because he knows a few things is ready to run the entire shop but can't see the whole picture from his limited POV and therefore remains completely clueless as to what is required to fund his paycheck. There is huge financial risk in undertaking a project such as this...#1 being is this the right product to make or should your time and money be invested in something else with greater profit potential. We are godamned fortunate someone saw some profit potential in these products(S12 and S308 mags) at all. Fortunately people like these guys don't give a rat's ass what whiners think...they just keep on moving FORWARD and making America great.

[BattleRifleG3 16]

I was about to post, but realized that if people didn't read the first time they won't read it again.

 

Buy the mags and cover the startup costs, and the prices could go down in order to sell a larger volume. Don't buy the mags and the prices will go nowhere but up for the same reasons machinegun prices are going nowhere but up - because there won't be any more.

[Snoopdogg 0]

How do you figure zero labor, you think an injection molding machine cranks out complete mags? The raw material needs to be off-loaded from a truck, it may require dehumidification to run properly and someone will have to check that out, the molds need to be hung, the machine needs to be loaded with raw material, the molded parts will probably need to have a little tit removed from the injection process and the magazines need to be assembled, checked for quality and packaged and we haven't even gotten into overhead like OSHA compliance, corporate/income taxes, EPA compliance, Worker's Comp, Payroll taxes and on and on and on... Zero labor my butt.

 

Semantics.

"Zero labor" meant you deliver your mold to the injection-mold company and tell them yoou need X amount of pieces. And then you drive down and pick up the pieces when completed. Zero labor in comparison to whittling something out on a milling machine.

 

Also, you rude ignorant tool, qoute me where I said anything negative about Z1500 or the product he was making?

I said I can't justify spending that kind of money on TWENTY magazines. I will buy TWO.

How is me knowing what those magazines cost to get from concept to consumer, me dissing him?

 

If I recall, other than the price, I had nothing but good things to say about the mags. No?

[beerslurpy 1]

Any word recently? I havent received any notification (or any mags) yet.

 

Does anyone know what timeframe they should be ready in?

 

I dont want to give the impression I've grown impatient. I mean, I've already been waiting 2 years, so this isnt exactly an extraordinary hardship.

[Bayoupiper 738]

Rude, ignorant, tool.

Yep, I'm gonna have to use that one on somebody!

I think the best point made is that these weapons are not widely available (so to speak), or popular.

Nobody is beating down the door to get them...yet.

And because there is currently a small, but rabidly enthusiastic following, accesories cost more.

Kind of like Chevy 350 small block parts are available every where.

But try to find Pontiac or Buick performance parts!

Edited July 10, 2006 by Will

[beerslurpy 1]

But try to find Pontiac or Buick performance parts!

 

Upgrading buicks is easy! All you need is a bigger turbo and injectors.

[Jeric 0]

But try to find Pontiac or Buick performance parts!

Now why would anyone want to go and do a thing like that????