Surprised - Saiga .223 misfired regularly in the extreme cold

[roscoe 0]

I had my .223 Saiga up in Colorado and on a cold day took it shooting (10 degrees F or so). The firing pin regularly either would not reset, requiring hand cycling and tossing live ammo out each time I did it, or a couple of slam (or stuck pin) repeat fires.

 

I have been giving it the old 'never clean it' AK test to see how long I could go without cleaning it. I guess I have hit the limit. I figure the gunk in the bolt got so cold the firing pin was getting stuck. Here in southern AZ it is no problem, but up in the cold - watch it! The double-firing was fun, however.

[SOPMOD 254]

I had my .223 Saiga up in Colorado and on a cold day took it shooting (10 degrees F or so). The firing pin regularly either would not reset, requiring hand cycling and tossing live ammo out each time I did it, or a couple of slam (or stuck pin) repeat fires.

 

I have been giving it the old 'never clean it' AK test to see how long I could go without cleaning it. I guess I have hit the limit. I figure the gunk in the bolt got so cold the firing pin was getting stuck. Here in southern AZ it is no problem, but up in the cold - watch it! The double-firing was fun, however.

 

Your firing pin is either seized or damaged of has something cooked into it and if it was removed and cleaned with a good lube like militech when you first bought it it would still be functioning perfectly even in the cold or desert despite an infrequent maintenance schedule.

 

you should remove your firing pin and inspect it(and your extractor) and look for a foreign substance other than typical fouling(cosmoline,paint residue,flaked off chrome) as well as burrs or bending because I honestly have only seen this problem once under those circumstances with a Kalashnikov other than early Chinese 223 guns and they needed a modification rather than an intensive maintenance schedule.

 

 

Please inspect that sucker and tell us what you find if you don't mind satisfying my curiosity..

Edited January 9, 2008 by SOPMOD

[kresk 10,063]

Sounds suspicious for congealed lubricant.

[SOPMOD 254]

Sounds suspicious for congealed lubricant.

 

My thoughts exactly!

Congealed or hydrolized to make some lovely "chocolate milk" that turns to fairly thick slush when frozen.

[G O B 3,516]

It is a Russian weapon. If you MUST have oiled parts (dry is good for extreme cold), mix the oil with gasoline before using. Use the mix sparingly and ONLY when below 20 degrees or so. This was what kept Russian stuff running when the German sfuff froze.

[vjor 2]

In cold weather dry gun, no oil, no lubes on receiver, bolt, bolt carrier, or it will freeze. But what do I know.

[loki0629 55]

But if it does freeze you can piss on it to warm up the metal right before you shoot. Once you get it going friction will keep it warm. Don't ask me how I know.

[Motopilot1 37]

how fun would that be every time you pull the trigger you get a face full of piss well at least i would, being left handed

Edited January 12, 2008 by motopilot1

[loki0629 55]

how fun would that be every time you pull the trigger you get a face full of piss well at least i would, being left handed

Which is why it is recommended that you piss on your own weapon. It would be worse (IMHO) if it was someone else's piss.

[RangerM9 1]

Sounds suspicious for congealed lubricant.

 

 

 

that would be my bet given the ambient temp....

[kresk 10,063]

Sounds suspicious for congealed lubricant.

 

 

 

that would be my bet given the ambient temp....

Have seen it occur with some 1911's and shotguns.

[G O B 3,516]

I use 5W30 synthetic motor oil, and SPARINGLY. I no longer use any other gun oil. Not only is it less prone to temperature related viscosity problems, the same additives that keep hydrocarbon products of combustion in suspension, and anti skuff and hydrophillic additives are perfect for weapons. I run a wet oil patch through the bore before storage- and have found that no matter how clean I thought the bore was-when I run a dry patch through prior to using that gun again-the synthetic oil has pulled enough crap out of the bore to make the patch grey.

[vujade 0]

G O B... i've read around some folks using motor oil instead of gun oil... any more details on that that you can provide?

 

do you have to mix with anything?

 

i'm paying $4 for a little bottle of CLP...then another few for the Hoppes 9 stuff, then some grease... etc. 1 BIG bottle for syn 5w30 sounds like a deal at under $5.

 

anyone else have experience with this?

 

any dos/dont's? like get on plastic?

 

thanks.

 

If this works... buying regular little bottle gun cleaners is the biggest waste in the industry right?

[Pointer 21]

Ya here it alot with SKS's and there floating firing pins.

[Bvamp 604]

G O B... i've read around some folks using motor oil instead of gun oil... any more details on that that you can provide?

 

do you have to mix with anything?

 

i'm paying $4 for a little bottle of CLP...then another few for the Hoppes 9 stuff, then some grease... etc. 1 BIG bottle for syn 5w30 sounds like a deal at under $5.

 

anyone else have experience with this?

 

any dos/dont's? like get on plastic?

 

thanks.

 

If this works... buying regular little bottle gun cleaners is the biggest waste in the industry right?

 

 

I use motor oil as well now. the only time I use pinhole bottled machine oil is on very small parts, like drift pins, small springs, and some trigger components, but thats only for ease of application.

 

I also have stopped or partly repaired various rust issues with guns over the years by submerging all parts in gasoline for a day or two, then doing the same with motor oil. some wd40 into tight places between soaks, and an ammonia wash for those corrosive firing oldies straight off, Ive found to be the best way to help the metal out, and removed a great deal of rust problems that come up with old guns in the places you never clean.

 

After doing this, it is common to get a bit of burning off of the oil when you shoot the gun. A wipedown of motor oil on guns with pakerised or blued finishes really goes a long way after a shooting session. I also store guns after wetting them down with motor oil, and not wiping it off with a clean rag. Wipe it off real quick before you take it out the next time, is all. Almost any gun will love you for it. Ive taken to wiping wood down, as well as plastic, just because it is faster. I havent had any bad results yet, but I would advise not doing this with optics, only thier mounts.

[coma8coma1 0]

I had my .223 Saiga up in Colorado and on a cold day took it shooting (10 degrees F or so). The firing pin regularly either would not reset, requiring hand cycling and tossing live ammo out each time I did it, or a couple of slam (or stuck pin) repeat fires.

 

I have been giving it the old 'never clean it' AK test to see how long I could go without cleaning it. I guess I have hit the limit. I figure the gunk in the bolt got so cold the firing pin was getting stuck. Here in southern AZ it is no problem, but up in the cold - watch it! The double-firing was fun, however.

 

Your firing pin is either seized or damaged of has something cooked into it and if it was removed and cleaned with a good lube like militech when you first bought it it would still be functioning perfectly even in the cold or desert despite an infrequent maintenance schedule.

 

you should remove your firing pin and inspect it(and your extractor) and look for a foreign substance other than typical fouling(cosmoline,paint residue,flaked off chrome) as well as burrs or bending because I honestly have only seen this problem once under those circumstances with a Kalashnikov other than early Chinese 223 guns and they needed a modification rather than an intensive maintenance schedule.

 

 

Please inspect that sucker and tell us what you find if you don't mind satisfying my curiosity..

 

SOPMOD, how does one go about removing the firing pin, extractor, etc.

I've never had my bolt apart.

 

thanks in advance -coma8coma1

[roscoe 0]

UPDATE

 

OK - I took the unchanged Saiga out to the range (here in southern Arizona - 60 degrees or so) and it gave me bursts of two and three, and occasionally failed to fire. However, I think that it has nothing to do with the bolt. I think it is the new trigger group I installed. I noticed that the hammer was not resetting when looking at the receiver cover slot behind the charging handle. When I pulled out the bolt, the firing pin appeared to move easily and the spring was strong.

 

I have come to the conclusion that it must be the result of the new Tapco/BattlerifleG3 trigger group somehow not locking the hammer back after each shot. I am going to reinstall the factory trigger group to see if it fixes the problem.

 

I had totally forgotten that I had changed the trigger group, but that has to be the problem.

 

And, yes, it was cool to go into 2 or 3-round burst every time I pulled the trigger. My first full auto. The burst groups were very tight - maybe 3" at 100 yards. Also - very little recoil. If only we could have the real deal!

Edited January 18, 2008 by roscoe

[Bvamp 604]

It sounds like your disconnect needs adjustment thats for sure. It should be a simple matter of removing it and honing the bottom part of it that rests on top of the trigger, to get it to come forward a little bit. take a little off at a time, and be prepared to take it apart a couple of times to get it where you want it. make sure thats the problem, first, before you go adjusting the shape of any parts. the average between my ak types appears to be about 1/8" abouts.

 

 

be sure that that is what the problem is before you do anything, like I said. It could be a couple of other things, if your disconnect looks to grab sufficiently to your eye.

 

....oh and when you have slam fires like that happening (what you described as burst fire), the gun can go off out of battery.

[roscoe 0]

Here at the house, when cycling by hand with the receiver cover off, it looks like the hammer is easily caught each time, but I could clearly see the hammer resting forward on the back of the bolt/firing pin when looking through the slot at the range. I guess there could also be a problem with the spring on the disconnector. Kind of wish I had a double disconnector.

 

Strange. I will first replace the parts back to original, then try working on the new parts.

 

Yes about firing out of battery = bad. That is why I am anxious to get it working again.

[Jack A Sol 2]

GUYS, THE ak HAS TO BE KEPT CLEAN AND PROPERLY LUBED IN COLD WEATHER CONDITIONS!!

 

the "conventional" wisdom on the AK that says you dont need to clean it is bullshit. It's a gun and needs to be cleaned. The cold weather in particular causes the normally loose tolerances to tighten up and create more opportunity to fail. The operator who will not maintain his weapon is a fool.

 

I have been doing some cold weather testing myself and have been getting failures of various types, that are related to the lubrication issue.

 

I will say that by PROPERLY lubricating the gun these failures have gone away.

 

several solutions I have tried that worked:

1-synthetic 5x30 motor oil

2-synt 5x-30 mixed with 10% lucas oil (good to the tested -2f, lucas added a bit more viscosity and held in place better)

3-spray lithium grease (worked really well actually at 20f)

 

things I would not use

-oil mixed with GAS or other fuel. This is just retarded. This was a FIELD EXPEDIENT fix SIXTY FIVE YEARS AGO during WWII. the oils used at that point were parrafin based and of poor quality compared to even the cheapest of todays motor oils.

-WD-40. THIS IS A PENETRANT AND WILL DESTROY YOUR AMMO stay away from this or any penetrating oil.

-running dry. depending on how cold and your gun this may not work well. I tried it in 2 guns and had problems in both, that previously had NO issues.

 

 

As always make sure your firing pin is not lubricated or gummed up. clean ALL cosmoline or preservative oils off the gun and action, these are the WORST for stoppages.

 

in short, clean and properly lubricate your gun in cold weather

Edited January 19, 2008 by Jack A Sol

[Threecard 15]

....oh and when you have slam fires like that happening (what you described as burst fire), the gun can go off out of battery.

 

OH Shit!

 

That can't be good.

[roscoe 0]

The gun was well-lubed, it just had not been cleaned.

 

It turns out the strings had nothing to do with the firing pin (see above); rather the new disconnector was the problem.

[IndyArms 10,186]

I would think that cold weather would cause tolerances to increase... cold contracts the metals, "shrinking" them... therefore the gaps between two surfaces would increase in relation to each other... loosening tolerances, and loosening the moving parts, not tightening them... but hey... I have been wrong before...

 

[ClickClickD'oh 1]

I know this may be coming a bit out of left field... but have you checked to make sure you didn't accidentally install the hammer backwards while doing the fire control group conversion? A backwards hammer will cause problems with the disconector catching it on the charging stroke.

[dobravery 49]

But if it does freeze you can piss on it to warm up the metal right before you shoot. Once you get it going friction will keep it warm. Don't ask me how I know.

 

Just make sure your member doesn't get too close to the cold metal of the receiver. Otherwise your buddy might have to pee you free.

[Saigaczech 9]

BTW, has anyone used Dexron type ATF fluid for lube? I heard it is a good alternative, just never tried it myself. I will look into the 5-30 Synthetic stuff as I have spent too much on CLP over the past few years.

[G O B 3,516]

ATF is one of the ingredients of "Ed's red" homemade bore cleaner. I don't remember the formula, never made any. I like the smell of Hoppes #9.

Edited February 1, 2008 by G O B