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sarduy

Best saiga for sniping at 500 yards

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I still think you are better off buying a Savage at Wal-Mart. It will cost you less, and the results will be significantly better.

Being the owner of two Savage rifles (one .223 heavy barrel bought new, the other a .30-06 bought for about the price of a used 10-22, bought used), I would agree. The .223 likes Federal AE 50 gr hollow points, and the .30-06 for some reason likes match ammo designed for M1 Garands. You want to put a hole in something small, at long range, on a budget, there's absolutely nothing better than a Savage bolt action. Just try different loads, until you find what it likes, and then you're sittin' pretty...

 

Just my opinion...

 

 

Precision shots at 500 yards is bolt action territory.

 

Savage is a great choice.

 

Good price.

 

Great accuracy right out of the box.

 

And you can upgrade your rig (stock, rings, glass, etc.) and skills (including hand loading) as you learn and grow.

 

 

 

You can give a look at the Stevens model 200. It's a Savage, Made by Savage, Just a different colored stock, and about 1/2 price. I bought one in 7mm-08 for 275.00 NIB. It's a real tack driver at 350 yds (Its the longest shot I have room to make).

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The guys over at www.snipercountry.com LOVE the Savage. (It's a Mil/LE tac shooter's site, pros)

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My remjet 700 in 338winmag will put two bullets thru the same hole at 100yds and i don't even consider that a so-called sniper rifle. I have 4,000ft.lbs @ the muzzle and at 200yds it still has 2,700ft.lbs thats the muzzle energy of a 30-06 @ 200yds. I say forget the 06 and go for the 338. The britts are using the 338cal and i think its a lapuna.

 

The best i can do with my 308 saiga is 1 1/2" groups @ 100yds using south african 308 ball ammo with no scope. Thats the facts it is what it is. I think thats dam good for a saiga using surplus ammo. I wouldn't trade my saiga for any other rifle in 308 for sure.

Edited by Unknown Poster

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I wouldn't trade my saiga for any other rifle in 308 for sure.

 

I'll bet you would if you were offered an HK PSG1 :D A $12K swap would make me drop pretty much anything.

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Seriously you guys know how to turn a simple question (what's the best long range saiga) into 10 pages of BS and off topic conversation.

 

 

Welcome to the internet.

 

 

Agreed. A straight up, end all comprehensive answer is also known as a 'conversation killer'. I do that sometimes without really meaning to...

 

The simple answer would be one post with 4 letters: S308.

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You can give a look at the Stevens model 200. It's a Savage, Made by Savage, Just a different colored stock, and about 1/2 price. I bought one in 7mm-08 for 275.00 NIB. It's a real tack driver at 350 yds (Its the longest shot I have room to make).

Ditto!

 

If you're shooting at 500 yards, and have a choice, you're better off with something other than a Saiga. Period. Asking which Saiga might perform best at 500 yards is like asking which Saiga makes the best canoe paddle. Suggesting that an actual, real-life, rational answer is "BS" or "off topic" misses the point of the question (which I assume is actually putting a bullet in the 'pay zone' at 500 yards).

 

The Savage/Stevens rifles were designed in such a way that correct headspacing (and barrel/caliber swapping, if you want to go that route) is a snap, which contributes to superior accuracy. It's a proven design (hope the engineer who designed it got royalties ;>). I've got two Savage bolt guns and they both shoot better than I do. You can pay more (obviously), but I doubt you will find a better value than Savage/Stevens for long-range accuracy.

 

You want a Saiga for 500 yard shots? The simple answer would be one post with 2 words: 'think again'...

Edited by Bad Bob

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"... which Saiga might perform best at 500 yards is like asking which Saiga makes the best canoe paddle. "

 

You want a Saiga for 500 yard shots? The simple answer would be one post with 2 words: 'think again'...

 

X2. As always, you need the right tool for the job.

 

Fett

P.S. Would the thumbhole stock decrease the effectiveness of my 223 as a canoe paddle?

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"Best Saiga for sniping at 500 yards line?"

 

Give me a break...

 

Yeah.... My answer = none of the above. I wouldn't waste time trying to hit a target past 300 yards with a saiga. Why give your position away without a hit?

Edited by gothchick

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Stick to the one that comes stock with your Halo3 game! :lolol:

 

Because here in the real world AKs are not accurate enough to use as a sniping rifle. Unless you idea of "sniping" is precision shooting at something the size of a medium building!

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Sniper rifles are not as acurrate as some think.

A average size man is 5'8" & 17" wide that's a pretty big group size. Even when you remove the legs, arms and head part of the equation, you still have a about a 24" x 17 " target to shoot at.

 

Anyways some use this

Edited by yesno
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Stick to the one that comes stock with your Halo3 game! :lolol:

 

Because here in the real world AKs are not accurate enough to use as a sniping rifle. Unless you idea of "sniping" is precision shooting at something the size of a medium building!

 

 

i dont get my toys based on games... If that was the case i had a P-51 Mustang or a F4U Corsair from IL-2 and a Supra from NFS outside my house i pick my toys for their ability to accomplish the task they're made for.

 

example: you dont take a shotgun for a 200 yards varmint hunting same way you don't use a bolt action .22 mag for HD.

 

 

--- This is more of a Saiga Designated Marksman Rifle than a sniper rifle ---

Edited by Sarduy

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Why is this discussion still going on? Which Saiga is best at 500 yards? None its a fuckin kalashnikov you'd be lucky to hit a man sized target at 200 yards with it.

 

Get a bolt action rifle, like a Savage, end of thread.

 

Can the mods please close this?

 

FYI, the rifles like to SVD, Tabuk, PSL, etc. are NOT "Sniper Rifles" they are "DESIGNATED MARKSMAN RIFLES" intended to increase the effective range of fire of a Soviet infantry squad, not to provide sniper fire.

 

Roles

Snipers work either independently or temporarily attached to another unit.

Designated marksmen are integral members of regular infantry squads or platoons, much like machine-gunners or grenadiers.

 

Weapons

Snipers are usually equipped with purpose-built bolt-action or semi-automatic sniper rifles.

DM's are usually equipped with accurized battle rifles or assault rifles.

 

Ranges

Snipers are mainly employed for targets at ranges of up to 1,400 metres (1,530 yd), when using a rifle chambered with standard-issue rifle ammunition.

DM's are mainly employed for targets at ranges of up to 800 meters (875 yd).

 

Mobility and position

Snipers usually take a fixed strategic position and camouflage themselves (e.g. with a Ghillie suit).

DM's usually change positions with their squad, and may or may not have more camouflage gear than other infantrymen.

Edited by saigafun12345
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Hey Saigafun, "lucky to hit a man size target at 200 yards", seriously. With match grade ammo a 200 yard shot is easy with the right scope on a S308. At least it is with my 21" That's not what I have heard either, I have done it with mine using a Millett 4-24X56 scope, alot.

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Hey Saigafun, "lucky to hit a man size target at 200 yards", seriously. With match grade ammo a 200 yard shot is easy with the right scope on a S308. At least it is with my 21" That's not what I have heard either, I have done it with mine using a Millett 4-24X56 scope, alot.

 

My Rem 700 VSSF .308 will easily shoot five 168 Match bullets into .50 inches @100yds. It will shoot the same load into .75 inches @200 yds. This is because the boattail bullet goes to sleep at around 150 yards and accuracy actually increases.

 

I would assume my scoped 21 inch barreled Saiga 308, with the same 168 match bullet would perform similarly. That is, shoot tighter MOA at longer distance. Since my Saiga will currently shoot 1MOA @100 yds, I would be willing to bet it will shoot 5MOA or LESS at 500 yds...if the shooter does his part. With a 2.5 inch variance from POA, well, that's even a HEAD SHOT at that distance.

Edited by m1key

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Just WOW... whoever posted the pictures of their groups... WOW. True precision rifles that are even dared to be called DM rifles should print a 1" group @ 50 yards rapid fire EVERY TIME. There's a couple groups that you marked 2.8" that look a little wierd, too. Unless you're using 6" paper plates, those groups are 4" easy. Not too bad for rapid fire from an AK variant, but still nothing even remotely close to precision quality.

 

On the other hand, I think saying that you couldn't hit a man sized target if you tried at 200 yards is stretching matters on the other end too. I think, with some form of optic and supported shooting position, that you should be able to achieve shots on man sized targets with an S308. I would tarry to say you'd be dealing with at least a 15" group, but you could do the deed if you know how. IMO, anyway.

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Been an interesting thread. ALL calibers are capable of extremely fine accuracy. Trick is to find the right bullet/powder/rifle combination to achieve the harmonics. I mention harmonics, because even though Saiga's, and AK-47/74 and a lot of other military rifles have violent barrel vibrations and flexes, to some degree so do ALL of the larger caliber sporting rifles. A barrel whips up and down, and side to side when fired. Bolt actions are no different. The trick to to marry the right bullet to the right barrel and resulting pressure to get consistent point of "exit" time after time.

Best to least accurate rifles:

1) Single shot. The loads can be hand tailored so that the bullet extends far enough into the bore that it nearly touches the rifling. I have known some serious reloaders that use lamp black on the bullet tip and adjust the seating die to the bore of "that" particular rifle. This same guy I know, shot a 25-06 rifle Single Shot, and could hit a beer can at 400 yards every time with it. Not once in a while, but every time. Ruger #1 single shot rifle in .25-06 cal.

 

2) Bolt Action. The loads can be nearly tailored to the extent that you can increase the length of the seating of the bullet in the neck but has the drawback of the magazine or bullet "well" that limits the length of the overall bullet (cartridge +bullet). But, you can overcome a little of the distance the bullet "jumps" into the lands of the rifling. Again, with proper bullet and proper powder charge in handloading, you can achieve some exemplary results. I had a Savage bolt action rifle in .223 Rem. caliber that I had a gun smith cut 3/4 " off the end of the barrel because of some faulty rifling at the very end. Before the cut off and re-crown, you could barely get it to hit a 9" pie plate at 50 yards. Some shots hit sideways (key-holed) as the gasses escaped violently on one side of the bullet at the moment it left the barrel. Result was disrupting the bullet and causing it to flip end over end instead of spinning on the way to the target. After the resulting gun smith re-crown, my hand load with Hornady 55 gr bullet flat base shot a 3 shot one hole group that was nearly indiscernible without close scrutiny with a magnifying glass. Interestingly those flat based spire point Hornady bullets always shot one hole groups, but I could not get the boat tails, regardless of mfg. to do the same, so I stuck with the Hornady 55 gr SP. Took a nice buck deer during deer season with that rifle, right under 100 yards, and hit him at the base of his skull. Dead like lightning hit him. Very accurate rifle.

 

3) Lever action. I've owned and shot some lever action rifles and have read some on them, but for some reason in their design, the lock up, or other, but they have always been just one cut under the bolt actions for accuracy. Some lever action rifles are extraordinary, and can beat a wide group of bolt actions, but for the general consensus, they just are not quite there. Again, I believe it is the crimp you have to put on the lighter weight lever action cartridges that have affected their accuracy. Light crimping on bolt action (and I mean LIGHT) and no crimping on single shots have been their advantages.

 

4) Semi Auto. There is a lot going on when the round gets touched off with the semi automatic rifle. Some of that gas pressure is converted into a usable force to extract the spent cartridge. Gas ports, springs, lock ups, how quickly it unlocks after firing, all contribute to variables that are simply not there with the single shot and bolt action. Once a bullet is chambered in a single shot and the firing pin hits the primer, ALL of the powder/pressure is exerted on the bullet/brass and head. Consistency in pressure and the right bullet for the right rifling and velocity are the key here. In the Semi Automatic, the bullet firing is just the beginning of the process. Things cannot be held to as close of a tolerance with most semi automatics or you end up with Fail To Eject, and Fail To Feed. Bullet overall length is VERY important. They have to be only so long to feed reliably out of the magazine, and chamber properly. How stiff the recoil spring is, how quickly does the bolt start to disengage in it's extraction, how tight is the piston in the gas chamber. All of these variables come into play with variable pressures. Key is to try to get the pressure of the shell to be consistent and the right bullet for that particular barrel that gives good stability and leaves the end of the barrel at the same vibration point time and time again. Again, barrel vibration is inherit to all the rifles, and the idea is to get a bullet to leave the rifle at the same spot in the harmonics or "whip" repeatedly.

 

In handloading circles, I have seen AR rifles shoot sub 1" MOA in many of their loads. They have a bolt assist button on the side for a good reason. Their tolerances are so tight, that they don't stand much in the way of dirt or dirty actions and can stick getting the round to load. Hence, the bolt assist button on the side.

 

Now for Saiga, shooting out to 400 or so yards. My guess would be the .308 simply because of it's ballistic co-efficient and the extra powder charge you can get with 7.62 x 51 as compared to 7.62 x 39. My Saiga, a heavier barreled EAA import seems to be doing well in it's .223 caliber with handloading. You see, I have always believed that your best shot (pun intended) with accuracy is with reloaded ammunition, and that takes a lot of time and patience. I'll include a link to yesterday's reloading success, I posted here in the .223 forums: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=42586 Please understand that the groups I got with some other grain variances with the BLC-2, (eg 26.5 gr) did not have close groups. Same conditions, just difference in powder weight made the group the size it is.

 

I think I can hit a target out there at 300 yards with my Saiga, but you are going to have a lot more bullet drop further out and I can't guess the reliability of the round to stay stable in further distances. There was some posting about a .308 round that was extraordinary for shooing out to 500 yards, but at 700 yards, it lost enough velocity to be sub sonic, and, at that point, somewhere between 400+ yards, it's bullet destabilized and groups would really open up. It was a boat tail bullet. But, because of the weight in grs of the bullet, and boat tail and twist of the rifling, it simply was not holding up well for those long yard shots after it dropped below the speed of sound.

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Why is this discussion still going on? Which Saiga is best at 500 yards? None its a fuckin Kalashnikov you'd be lucky to hit a man sized target at 200 yards with it.

 

Well, you wouldn't want to stand out there at 200 yards with me shooting my .223 Saiga. It's an EAA import and Brian at Dinzag Arms told me to "grab it right away, as those EAA had heavier barrels and were more accurate than the RAAC imports later on". So I did. Bought it and there is still "one" left. :smoke:

 

I live on 10 acres. 330 feet by 1320 feet long. 200 yards is not distance in my back pasture. I measured it off today and put a plastic coffee can there. I shot 4 times at it with Federal 55gr FJM BT. Not the best, and certainly not one of my handloads. This is just a Wal-Mart value pack I got for the re-loadable brass. Anyway, I will post picture examples.

 

Coffee can with holes in it circled. I drew arrows to get the general idea where the hole was. I was aiming for the label. Scope used: 3x9 x32 scope.

post-19094-1248229106_thumb.jpg

 

This picture is of the side of the coffee can. I had a bit of dirt in the can, and one of the bullets, probably the one that hit on the left, moved the can around just a bit, but left it still square on the ground.

post-19094-1248228292_thumb.jpg

 

My daughter took this picture of me holding the coffee can to get an idea of where the bullets would hit on a human body. With spire points or hollow points, you would probably not survive.

 

post-19094-1248228394_thumb.jpg

 

If I used my handloads, I think I can do just as well out to 900 feet or 300 yards. This is not really the rifle for sniping. I would prefer a bolt action .308 heavy barrel with magazine feed and bedded stock. I prefer the M14 rifle to the M-16 any day.

I believe my next rifle will be a .308 Saiga, and get it this fall with my fall bonus check. I also believe that I'll keep this Saiga, and not contemplate selling it for a Ruger Mini-14.....although I really like the Garand action. This one is a raccoon shooter at night, that's for sure!! :rolleyes:

 

All in all, I would not be worried to take deer with this rifle at ranges to 200-300 yards. Back in Nebraska we can shoot deer with .223 Remington, which is about as light a high power rifle as you can go for deer. Some states don't allow it. I've shot deer with a .338 Winchester Magnum, but the one that died the quickest, was one shot with a .223 Rem. He dropped like lightening hit him. Only about 100 yards away, and a head shot.

Edited by Darth AkSarBen

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Also, see this thread for pictures of a less than .5" group at 100 yards: http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=42586 It is done with special handloads, and not factory ammo, plus a lot of care and attention to cleaning the bore well.

 

I cannot for the life of me quite figure out why my Lyman 49TH edition manual lists the 7.62 x 39 round as not very accurate. ALL rifle barrels will give vibrations and "whip" movement, it is just getting the right pressure and bullet combination to make it so that is in the same spot every time the bullet leaves the muzzle. Remember, only a fraction of a mm at the muzzle, will mean a difference out there at 100 yards, and expotentially more at greter distances. 1" does not translate to 2" at 200 yards or 4" at 400 yards. It gets worse the further out you are.

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A lot of the bad press on the x39 was the creation of the American arms industry and gvmt pushing the 223 and 308. The x39 is only slightly less accurate up to 200m but that easily translates into a 4MOA rifle vs a 2MOA expected from the 223 and 308. I like the round less than the 308 but more than the 223 as I consider the x39 to be a 200m or less round with more punch than 223, heavily wooded/obstructed settings. Of course the 308 just wins on all counts except punching holes in paper. Since both the x39 and 223 are/were used for their auto fire capability of low recoil and load out weight those advantages dont translate well for semi-auto rifles.

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If you HAVE to use a Saiga (Kalashnikov) for "sniping" go for the 308. The round itself is very accurate...in the right gun. Using a Kalashnikov for "sniping" (by "sniping" I presume you mean shooting at soft target ~500 yards)is like using a snow shovel to garden with. Sure, it'll work, sort of, but it's not the right tool for the job.

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Sniper rifles are not as accurate as some think.

A average size man is 5'8" & 17" wide that's a pretty big group size. Even when you remove the legs, arms and head part of the equation, you still have a about a 24" x 17 " target to shoot at.

 

 

The M40 Marine Sniper Rifle is capable of sub-MOA accuracy out to 1KM, per USMC. That is, in the real world. A Savage Tactical in .308 I have personally shot will shoot significantly less than 1 MOA, as does the Remington PSS, and the H&K PSG1.

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The coyote I killed might argue about saigas not being accurate past 200 yards. He was ranged at just under 400 yards (382 to be exact). I used Hornady .223 ammo and a 4-16x40 scope.

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I'm doing 5.45 out to 300 yards and using the 7.62x39 out to 200 and call it done.

 

Going to see what I can ring out 'size wise' with factory/surplus ammo and get back to ya'll.

 

The DROP and 'zing' come down fast on most rounds after 250 yards. The .308 would be the logical choice.

 

I don't hunt as of yet. I do have a MN 91/30 (I heard it is good at to 400 yards...) but still haven't dialed in the scope yet on it. 022.gif

 

I'd love to shoot 600+ yards but that isn't happening around here and on my budget.009.gif

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Wow, thought this looked familiar! :lol:

 

Still say that the answer is a S308 with ammo it likes. I now have a 16" S308 that shoots 1.5" 100 groups with "general" handloads - not tuned to the rifle. That's plenty good for hits at 500 yards. No, not the best tool for the job - but as stated way long ago, that wasn't the OP's question now was it? :D

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