FOR ALL YOU .223 HATERS OUT THERE!!?!?

[Bean.223 365]

Guys does some nice shooting with his DPMS .223@ 680 yrds.

 

Cool thing is you can actually see the rounds arching to the targeting, NICE camera work!!!!

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJWLP81qCAE

[IndyArms 10,186]

Considering the rifle hes using, and the size of the target... It doesn't surprise me he can hit it... the question is... how much energy do those rounds HAVE at 680 yards? how fast are they dropping? It looks like hes shooting them at a 30 degree angle up and arcing them down into the target... just cause he can hit it does not mean it would have any energy left to do any real damage to a target.

 

dont try this with your Saiga, at home... you WILL be disappointed...

 

[Paladin 37]

Impressive shooting. Cool video. Nice gun. Still don't like .223.

 

Have same gun, same shooter using a .308, 6.5 Grendel or any of the magnums and you can get the same accuracy with alot more damage/penetration when it gets there.

 

Shooting targets? go with .223, really in a gun battle at 680 yrds? use something else.

Edited May 11, 2008 by Paladin

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

At 600 yards, the 308 will have as much energy as the 223 did leaving the barrel. The 223 at 600 yards has about as much energy as a 32acp. That's why I like the 308 for most work. In the unlikely chance you're going to hit something at 600 yards before it runs for cover, then you need to put it down with your one and only shot.

 

Actually what's always been more interesting to me is that the 7.62x39 still has as much or more energy at 500 yards than the 223 does. At that range it's frontal area of the bullet that's going to matter more than anything else, given both have velocities well below what's required to reliably expand a bullet. If I were choosing, I'd take the x39 over the 223 at 500 yards since both are rainbow trajectories at that range. At 300 yards, the 223 still retains a trajectory that's manageable without consulting your cards, which is more than the x39, so advantage to the 223 there.

[jhereg 0]

At 600 yards, the 308 will have as much energy as the 223 did leaving the barrel. The 223 at 600 yards has about as much energy as a 32acp. That's why I like the 308 for most work. In the unlikely chance you're going to hit something at 600 yards before it runs for cover, then you need to put it down with your one and only shot.

 

Actually what's always been more interesting to me is that the 7.62x39 still has as much or more energy at 500 yards than the 223 does. At that range it's frontal area of the bullet that's going to matter more than anything else, given both have velocities well below what's required to reliably expand a bullet. If I were choosing, I'd take the x39 over the 223 at 500 yards since both are rainbow trajectories at that range. At 300 yards, the 223 still retains a trajectory that's manageable without consulting your cards, which is more than the x39, so advantage to the 223 there.

 

The problem w/ 7.62x39 at 500 yards is that most (note: I didn't say all! )of the 7.62x39 rifles can't reliably hit a mansized target at that range. If you assume the rifle is capable of 4 MOA that's a 24" circle before you factor in drop, wind, and sights which are going to greatly expand the probability of a miss. In general, I'd probably rather have a 1 - 2 MOA AR in 5.56 than a 4 MOA AK in 7.62x39 at that range. You've got to hit the target before terminal effects matter, and it's going to be rough w/ either of them unless you're running optics.

Edited May 12, 2008 by jhereg

[Bean.223 365]

Hey I was just facking with ya guys mainly, a .223 @ 680 yrds will be ONE NASTY FLESH WOUND!!!

I prefer the Saiga .223 because in a SHTF situation you'll just be able to get ahold of alot more of that ammo.

[vaglocker 0]

If he was using the irons I'd be impressed, but with a scope what's the big deal?

Edited May 14, 2008 by vaglocker

[O.S.O.K. 0]

The .223 for combat isn't designed for 680 yard shots. It's designed for zero to 300 meters. And its perfectly adequate for that with the newer 62 grain SS109 rounds.

 

But I do agree that I'd rather be toting a 7.62x51 chambered weapon if enguaging in serious social work at 300 yards.

[DavePAL84 1]

If he was using the irons I'd be impressed, but with a scope what's the big deal?

 

I take it you haven't done a lot of long-distance shooting?

 

I've shot targets out to 500m with irons but anything beyond that I'd certainly need a scope. A lot more goes into long distance shooting that simply having optics though.

[Afrikaner 2]

I still don't want to get hit with a 32acp...

 

And I sure as hell don't want to be within 800 yards of this guy when he's pissed

[THE_HUNTER 2]

Heck,at 50 yards I can nail a soup can with a Stevens .22 pistol every shot using Super Colibri rounds.Not much power left then in those,but still hits.Hitting and knocking something flat on it's ass are two different things.Nice shooting though!I heard of a deer hunter in a slug only zone getting hit @ 300 yards by someone else's miss and he was wearing heavy winter clothing.It knocked him down,luckily no penetration.

[Saigaczech 9]

Hey I was just facking with ya guys mainly, a .223 @ 680 yrds will be ONE NASTY FLESH WOUND!!!

I prefer the Saiga .223 because in a SHTF situation you'll just be able to get ahold of alot more of that ammo.

 

And I will take all that ammo off your dead body after my .308 shows you the difference between .22 ballistics and .30 ballistics. Get real, the .223 is at best a coyote round. There is a reason why it takes 3 or more hits before a BG hit by .223 stops, it just lacks the power to do teh job it is supposed to. Also remember in a SHTF situation the BG will be pumped full adrenaline (and possibly the recreational drug of their choice) and your fine motor skills will be shot to drek by the same adrenaline rush. Which would you rather have get a periphery hit with, a bloody .22 or a .308? The .308 is much easier to get a hold of then .223 right now anyway.

[jhereg 0]

Hey I was just facking with ya guys mainly, a .223 @ 680 yrds will be ONE NASTY FLESH WOUND!!!

I prefer the Saiga .223 because in a SHTF situation you'll just be able to get ahold of alot more of that ammo.

 

And I will take all that ammo off your dead body after my .308 shows you the difference between .22 ballistics and .30 ballistics. Get real, the .223 is at best a coyote round. There is a reason why it takes 3 or more hits before a BG hit by .223 stops, it just lacks the power to do teh job it is supposed to. Also remember in a SHTF situation the BG will be pumped full adrenaline (and possibly the recreational drug of their choice) and your fine motor skills will be shot to drek by the same adrenaline rush. Which would you rather have get a periphery hit with, a bloody .22 or a .308? The .308 is much easier to get a hold of then .223 right now anyway.

 

That all depends on where you are. There are not a lot of places around here where shots over 300 yards would be likely. If it comes down to those ranges I'm either going to E&E or setup an ambush if I'm on foot, or I'm going to have a bolt gun out of the safe if I'm at home or in a vehicle. With the right bullets 223 can do an adequate job out to 200 or 300 yards. 308 is great if someone else is paying for the ammo and dropping in more when you run out. IMO it's too heavy to carry the minimum of 200 - 300 rounds plus all the other gear I might need, plus being able to take care of a young child. If S really HTF, then you need more than just a rifle and ammo to survive, at least if you're not planning on preying on those weaker than yourself to get the rest.

[Afrikaner 2]

If you shoot at an enemy at 300 yards post SHTF, you deserve to get your ass whipped. 300yrds is plenty enough distance to get away without being seen or heard. At least here in the South East it is. If we are talking about out in the plains, it is a different matter.

Also keep in mind that while .308 is a little easier to get at the moment, it is still more expensive. A lot of us have a bit of .223 stocked up, so it easier for us to train with. A .308 with little training doesn't come close to a well trained shooter with a .223...

I've gone through a few tactical shoots with a FAL. The recoil is such that without a massive muzzle brake, you'd have a hard time doing double taps at close range.

The .223 is not the best cartridge, but used within it's limitations, it is lethal. We are also not bound by international "law" to stick to FMJ. .223 with a well designed SP or HP projectile will put a world of hurt on someone.

[vaglocker 0]

If he was using the irons I'd be impressed, but with a scope what's the big deal?

 

I take it you haven't done a lot of long-distance shooting?

 

I've shot targets out to 500m with irons but anything beyond that I'd certainly need a scope. A lot more goes into long distance shooting that simply having optics though.

 

As a matter of fact I have done some High Power shooting. As you may or may not know irons are used in these competitions out to 600 yards. It takes a talented shooter to shoot it clean, but I've hit my fair share of bullseyes at 600 with irons.

[Bean.223 365]

Unless im living on the planet venus, .308 is more expensive, HENCE .223 in my opinion easier to get a hold of.

Edited May 20, 2008 by Bean.223

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

If you shoot at an enemy at 300 yards post SHTF, you deserve to get your ass whipped. 300yrds is plenty enough distance to get away without being seen or heard. At least here in the South East it is. If we are talking about out in the plains, it is a different matter.

Also keep in mind that while .308 is a little easier to get at the moment, it is still more expensive. A lot of us have a bit of .223 stocked up, so it easier for us to train with. A .308 with little training doesn't come close to a well trained shooter with a .223...

I've gone through a few tactical shoots with a FAL. The recoil is such that without a massive muzzle brake, you'd have a hard time doing double taps at close range.

The .223 is not the best cartridge, but used within it's limitations, it is lethal. We are also not bound by international "law" to stick to FMJ. .223 with a well designed SP or HP projectile will put a world of hurt on someone.

 

You don't need to do double taps with a 308, if you hit anywhere in the center of mass the target is almost guaranteed down, and certainly incapacitated. Definately not the case with 223. Snipers get one shot and they need the minimum round that will put the target down. In almost all cases, they opt for 308. A hp bullet with the 308 is even more devastating than an hp out of a 223.

 

In most cases the 223 is enough, but probably not at 600 yards. I can think of lots of places where a 300 yard shot is relatively short. Most of the deer I take each year are from 200 to 400 yard shots (I often shoot down a fencerow and know exactly how long the shots are once the deer drops).

 

My view of things is that the 223 was an awesome replacement for the 30 carbine, but should have never replaced the m14. Compared to the 30 carbine the 223 gains capability, vs the M14 it loses it.

[Afrikaner 2]

We shot cubans and angolans in combat with the 7.62x51 FAL during the late 70's through 80's. Many chest shots acted more like ice picks than anything else.

Yes, the .308 has loads more power and it is overall a better cartridge for hunting.

All combat work under 300 meters gets the .223 vote from me. Over that, break out the .308. It is a much better long range cartridge, and hunting cartridge over all, but the .223 is a better short to medium range military cartridge.

7.62x39 is better than .223 in my opinion, but availability here in the US is not as good as with .223.

[jhereg 0]

You don't need to do double taps with a 308, if you hit anywhere in the center of mass the target is almost guaranteed down, and certainly incapacitated. Definately not the case with 223. Snipers get one shot and they need the minimum round that will put the target down. In almost all cases, they opt for 308. A hp bullet with the 308 is even more devastating than an hp out of a 223.

 

We must have different info. I've heard of too many failure to stops w/ everything from 22LR to 12 GA slug to 50 BMG. There is no magic bullet, and there is *NO* guaranteed one shot stop. I've been taught that you keep shooting until the tango is no longer a threat. Unless the target is behind a hard barrier I wouldn't trust 308/7.62x51 any more than I would 223.

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

Agree there is no guarantee, just probability. Hit a human sized target with a 308 expanding bullet in the center of mass, I would say it's probably incapacitated - instantly. Hit with a 308 FMJ and it's an ice pick (but still incapacitation - too much penetration required before yaw and fragmentation with FMJ). Hit at real close range with a 223 with expanding bullets and I'd say it might be more devastating than a 308 (308 has more energy and heavier bullet, so it takes more depth before expansion in most cases). Longer range the 308 still has the energy to expand and penetrate.

 

Nothing against 223, it's just that I can only carry one rifle at a time. So, I choose the one with better all around capability. If I were choosing within 50 yards, I go with a 12ga. Within 150, an accurate 7.62x39 platform (carries more ammo than a 308). However the 308 is the only one that does the job out to 600 plus yards (and there are plenty of shots taken at those ranges). The 223 is absolutely the best deal in terms of quantity of ammo toted for capability out to 300 yards.

 

As an aside, I've been tought to take a single shot, then vanish in plain sight. I agree your point of view making sense from a LE perspective...

[Squib 0]

Anyone who has done much hunting would see the difference between the .30 cal and the .22. Sure, with soft nose hunting ammo a .223 expands and does some damage, but with FMJ - I'd rather have my enemies hit with a 308 anyday. No contest on the knockdown power.

 

BTW I also have an AR15 and Saiga 223 and love them - but if I know I was going to battle to engage an enemy at unknown distances - I'd grab the Saiga 308 rather than the .223 saiga. After all, how do you really know if the SHTF and you have a coupe of minutes to get your poop in a group, grab a rifle and head out the door, what the distances will be?

[jhereg 0]

Agree there is no guarantee, just probability. Hit a human sized target with a 308 expanding bullet in the center of mass, I would say it's probably incapacitated - instantly. Hit with a 308 FMJ and it's an ice pick (but still incapacitation - too much penetration required before yaw and fragmentation with FMJ). Hit at real close range with a 223 with expanding bullets and I'd say it might be more devastating than a 308 (308 has more energy and heavier bullet, so it takes more depth before expansion in most cases). Longer range the 308 still has the energy to expand and penetrate.

 

A 308 COM is not guarantee of "incapacitated instantly." Unless you get a CNS hit, there is still a good chance they are going to continue. Look at the number of deer which are hit COM by a 308, 30-06, 7mm Mag, 300 Mag, or the like, but still run half a mile or a mile. You *may* get instant incapacitation from a COM hit from a 308, but the only real guarantee of one is a solid hit to the brain or spine.

 

I think we are looking at this from different viewpoints. You think like a sniper. Shoot them once COM & the problem is solved. It may not be immediate, but since they don't know where to look for you it doesn't really matter. I look at it from a CQB point of view. If I shoot them COM they are still capable of doing harm to me or mine until the COM hit has time to take effect. I'm interested in shutting them down *NOW*!

[buckandaquarterquarterstaff 5]

I think we are looking at this from different viewpoints. You think like a sniper. Shoot them once COM & the problem is solved. It may not be immediate, but since they don't know where to look for you it doesn't really matter. I look at it from a CQB point of view. If I shoot them COM they are still capable of doing harm to me or mine until the COM hit has time to take effect. I'm interested in shutting them down *NOW*!

 

BINGO,

 

You said it. I am definately guilty about thinking of things from 400 yards. At that range, incapacitated means something a whole lot different than it does at 5yards.

 

At shorter ranges things like muzzle rise etc come into play in ways I wasn't really even thinking about. I guess if I were to find myself in that situation, then I'd just throw the bricks I'd be shitting at the BG.

[Afrikaner 2]

I think we are looking at this from different viewpoints. You think like a sniper. Shoot them once COM & the problem is solved. It may not be immediate, but since they don't know where to look for you it doesn't really matter. I look at it from a CQB point of view. If I shoot them COM they are still capable of doing harm to me or mine until the COM hit has time to take effect. I'm interested in shutting them down *NOW*!

 

BINGO,

 

You said it. I am definately guilty about thinking of things from 400 yards. At that range, incapacitated means something a whole lot different than it does at 5yards.

 

At shorter ranges things like muzzle rise etc come into play in ways I wasn't really even thinking about. I guess if I were to find myself in that situation, then I'd just throw the bricks I'd be shitting at the BG.

That puts it in perspective. Ideally, the 6.5mpc, 6.5Grendel and 6.8SPC sort of bridge the gap between the intermediate caliber and the full power calibers.

The key is finding a caliber that allows good incapacitation, rapid follow up shots, but also allows you to reach out to 500 yards with decent power left. The .223 at close range is a nasty thing. Out of a 20" barrel, you would not want to get hit with 5.56x45 under 200 yards. It would probably fragment. Problem comes at longer ranges - and if you are facing an enemy with AK47's and you drill 2 holes COM through him at 400 yards, you are doing ok. I really doubt he is going to crawl the extra 200 yards to get within accurate range of the "usually" crappy AK that he has.

That said, if you had a caliber that still had some oomph left at 400 yards, it wouldn't be an issue, but then your CQB advantages are going down the tube.

Let's think 6.5x39?

[engbob 0]

what is COM?

 

I'd still wet my pants if we could get a Saiga in 6.8 SPC. Would save me a ton of money (looking to get LWRC AR).

[jhereg 0]

what is COM?

 

I'd still wet my pants if we could get a Saiga in 6.8 SPC. Would save me a ton of money (looking to get LWRC AR).

 

Center Of Mass

 

As to 6.8. I'm building an AR in that. Eventually. I've got a midlength 6.8 barrel, bolt, gas tube, and a magazine. One of these days when I have about $300 in discretionary cash I'm going to finish building it.

[jhereg 0]

Anyone who has done much hunting would see the difference between the .30 cal and the .22. Sure, with soft nose hunting ammo a .223 expands and does some damage, but with FMJ - I'd rather have my enemies hit with a 308 anyday. No contest on the knockdown power.

 

You might be surprised about the effectiveness of 223 w/ FMJ IIRC the gel test show a better wound channel from FMJ than HP or SP. Within fragmentation range for the bullet/barrel, 223 does pretty well.

[Hunter78 1]

The way I look at it the .223 is a good compromise between a higher power rifle and a shotgun for an urban environment or close contact where multiple fast shots are required yet still have the ability to reach out and kill something. However for hunting, or longer range work I'd definitly prefer the 308. In a shtf senerio living in a rural area I'd choose my saiga 308 first. Gel test and paper punching acuracy are fine, but real world performance is anouther matter The smaching and fragmentation of bones is a real stopping power that the kinetic energy of the heavier 308 will deliver more effectively. If you need to punch through some cover or stop something in one shot the 308 is much better, If you had multiple close targetsor providing suppression fire then the .223 is a better choice

[jhereg 0]

The way I look at it the .223 is a good compromise between a higher power rifle and a shotgun for an urban environment or close contact where multiple fast shots are required yet still have the ability to reach out and kill something. However for hunting, or longer range work I'd definitly prefer the 308. In a shtf senerio living in a rural area I'd choose my saiga 308 first. Gel test and paper punching acuracy are fine, but real world performance is anouther matter The smaching and fragmentation of bones is a real stopping power that the kinetic energy of the heavier 308 will deliver more effectively. If you need to punch through some cover or stop something in one shot the 308 is much better, If you had multiple close targetsor providing suppression fire then the .223 is a better choice

 

I can't disagree w/ you. I'm in an urban area, and just south of one of the bad sections of town. It's not beyond the bounds of reason to have a a problem w/ multiple bad guys around here in the case of SHTF. I'm not concerned about range around here. I'm more concerned about quick follow up shots and ammo. If things do bad around here I could be in a very target rich environment. This is a case of knowing your area & choosing accordingly.