Juggernaut 11,054 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 I would like to issue a formal Apology to Suarez International, our newest business member, for the poor reception that he has received, after his decision to advertise with us on our forum. As a Moderator, it has been my duty to uphold the rules of our forum and to recruit new membership into this potentially lucrative environment. I know that I have my own fair share of fun and goofy-ness and I know that I have made some emotionally-charged posts as well, but I do try to conduct myself as a professional when it is needed. Most of us here have been in intense discussions. I try to do what I think Max would want me to do for his forum. I feel this is a time for formality. My intentions of bringing you (Gabe) on this board was for the best interests of the SAIGA board itself and the SAIGA shooting community as a whole. You bring a dynamic to the community that we have been sorely lacking in. That being your years of experience, not only as an armed professional but as a tactical trainer as well. I know that there have been differences in the past between our board and Warrior Talk. As you know I did what I could to smooth that over as well. Apparently there are DEEP rooted issues going on here, beyond what I could have ever comprehended. I feel that this goes beyond my abilities as a humble Moderator to address. Please know that you do have a large amount of supporters on this board, some of them are leaders in the industry. But along with that comes those with the opposite feelings. However, there is a difference between offering constructive criticism in a tactful manner (versus) an all-out attack meant to try to dis-credit and humiliate you as a professional. There will always be differences in opinions on how training should be approached---but I feel it has gone far beyond that, here. I know that I actively recruited you thinking that this would be a sound, financial opportunity for you and your business. I HOPE that we can weather this storm and move on!!! If not, please know that I am more than willing to personally refund your investment here on this board. I am embarrassed on how things went down here, and I can only offer my resignation as a Moderator for any inability that I may have had on controlling the issue. I cannot be on the board 24 hours a day! Ultimately I did remove the thread until the forum owner can return and handle it, his way. Regardless of who it is that I bring on board...... I did extend to you as a professional, an environment for you to conduct business in. I had no comprehension of the level of ugliness that people were willing to go. Digging in the past etc.....As a Moderator, I need to uphold the levels that Max set forth. If that can not be done, it reflects negatively upon me. People need to put personal differences aside. I have been unable to carry out my word to you in this position. The only thing I feel I can do at this point in time is to step down as Moderator and if you decide to leave the SAIGA forum-personally refund your money. More than anything I hope that this has not caused you any personal or professional embarrassment. I know if we continue to treat new Business Members in such a manner, we will be cutting our OWN throat. NO ONE will want to conduct business here. God Bless and Semper Fi, Andrew Toth Link to post Share on other sites
HarvKY 72 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Classy post Juggernaut I don't have a beef with folks on either side of this. I always prefer to listen to opposing views on subjects. I am hopeful that Gabe sticks with the business membership and finds it beneficial. I also hope our Saiga community will benefit from his views and ideas. An open forum where a variety of opinions can be expressed is a sign of strength and vitality in an idea/product/movement. Ive seen many sites where a common belief system becomes so strong among a critical mass of members that they ritually shout down, intimidate, or ridicule anyone who dares post conflicting "heresy" The cursing and name calling reminds me of middle school kids and makes me want to avoid a site that I enjoy. I wish folks would just address the technique, idea, etc. that they agree/disagree with and not make personal attacks/remarks that have NO bearing on how we modify, use, or abuse our beloved Saigas! I think most members would benefit more from posts addressing a specific issue rather than emotional rants about personailties. Lets have a big tent folks Cheers, HarvKY Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Group hug! Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 Great post Juggs! Sorry you had to make it. And Agias, uh....NOT! Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 And Agias, uh....NOT! Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted June 29, 2008 Report Share Posted June 29, 2008 I guessed I missed something. The only thing I saw lately pertaining to Gabe was Jugg's "Welcome" thread.....................and now this. +1 to Harv's first line! Link to post Share on other sites
jrance@iacwds.com 716 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I leave town for the weekend and ?????????????????? anonymous Link to post Share on other sites
Elkhound 91 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) We were all a bit bad. Can we come out of time out yet? Juggs is a fine Moderator, even when he is chastising me, I know he is doing his job. There is a United States Supreme Court case which addresses how an Assistant United States Attorney is supposed to behave. It basically said that the AUSA could strike hard blows, just not foul blows. That goes for here, too. If what you say is the truth, fine. That can be considered a hard and fair blow. If it is speculation or purely opinion, yet mean spirited, argumentative and unnecessary to civilized discussion it is likely a foul blow. If this is the case, take your fingers off of the keyboard, call you dog and tell the dog what you wanted to type and resist the urge to type it here. Or, go reload some ammo until you feel better. Maybe be need an intervention team to help rescue those who just can't resist the foul blows. WJ Edited June 30, 2008 by WarriorJudge Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Well if Juggs wants to resign because of all this crap then I'm gone too. It's a shame that someone came into our house slinging insults and asking for a fight (literally) and we, as mods (who's number one job is to look out for the forum and it's members, not rack up as much money as possible) are supposed to just sit back and let that happen. It's a crying shame. I'm sorry too Gabe, sorry I didn't can that offensive thread just as soon as it turned ugly. Link to post Share on other sites
Franky 2 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I guess I have to apologize too. We are not F'tards here, we are loyal members. I hope everything straightens out. Mostly for the new members and all the mods. Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Like I said, I didn't even see the thread (I don't think so anyway) that people are talking about, but losing Juggs and Cobra seems a bit rash. Even if it is voluntary. Can those of us not "in the know" get the cliff-notes to what happened, or is it out of line to ask that? Did shit-slinging start in the original "Welcome, Gabe" thread or what? Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 (edited) Being a small fish in a big pond, I don't have much of a right to say a whole lot on stuff like this but I will say that from what I have seen, Juggernaut is a very good moderator, and I am sorry to see it come to this. I hope things can be worked through and things settle down. As far as Gabe Suarez, I am not necessarily a follower, my years of trying to be a street fighter are pretty well over, but I do subscribe to his news letter, and have learned things from it. To me that is good, and who says that there is only one way to do things? Different styles or methods can bring the same results, its just a matter of which a person prefers. I have found it a good thing to read everything, accept and learn the things I feel are beneficial to me and just pass the rest, it may be someone else's cup of tea. Guys, this is a loose run ship and its good that it is, but sometimes when you push too hard, you rock the boat, which is not good for anyone. Juggernaut and the Warrior Judge put it very well. I hope others see it that way too. Juggernaut, without you and Cobra this place would be a madhouse! Don't fall on your sword for someone else's actions. Dammit Cobra, you posted while I was writing...... not you too! Guys don't deny us good leadership because of someone else's actions. Punish them not us! EDIT This appears more complicated than I first thought, I am shutting the fuck up and backing away slowly, with my hands held out in the open in a non agressive manner. Edited June 30, 2008 by waltham_41 Link to post Share on other sites
mstranglr 9 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I guess I missed something? All I can say about Gabe is this; I have been lucky enough to train with many people, who conscribe to many different systems, and have found the majority of trianers to be seriously set in their ways and in many ways lacking what I was looking for; REALITY based training. You know, the guys that tell you not to use a 9mm because the bigger slower .45 does more damage, but one minute later tell you that the .223 is superior to the 7.62x39?! And the guys that have you draw from a perfectly balanced stance and shoot paper, or the tactical "urban" rifle classes where you shoot 200-400 yard targets in prone. The ones that teach you to manipulate your safety or decocker 20 freeken times in a tactical situation and then tell you when the SHTF you wont be able to perform tasks involving manual deterity?! What about one of the more famous schools that teach you that glocks are dangerous to carry because of a lack of manual safety! We had a local trainer (Chuck Taylor guy), who would tell us that the Reminton 870 is unreliable and to go buy a Mossy, stating that the 870s never finish the class; I guess mine was the first???? And why do they tell you that everyone elses training will get you killed? As I also started to garner a appreciation for the AK system, it became apparent that Gunsite, luis A, the Chuck Taylor gang, and all the rest really had no knowledge of the AK system; they just taught you to run it like an AR and seemed offended that you brought that "peasant weapon" to thier class. This is where Gabe filled the void for me. Gabe perfected the use of force-on-force training. When I did my first FOF class with Gabe, I tried the techniques I learned from police instuctors and all of the "popular" gun "gurus" of the day, and I got shot every time! By the end of that class, I was begining to survive most of the scenarios. At first, almost EVERY instructor and school flamed Gabe and his reality based training style - almost every board on the internet was rife with insults about how stupid his training was. Now guess what - THEY ALL USE IT, and many claim to have developed it!! When I told an instructor that I did FOF with Gabe a while back (after he claimed to invent it), he simply said "that guy is a criminal, who would believe him". Last year I did AK training with Gabe, and was simply amazed. I had been told my whole life that the saftey is one of the main disadvantages of the AK - Gabe teaches that it is actually an advantage and part of the design; you turn safety off when SHTF and back on when the situation is over, during the time in between it sits out of the way. Manipulating the saftey back and forth constanly is something AR gurus teach, Gabe tosed that out. Shooting takes place at short ranges, even point-blank ranges as this is where most situations take place. Gabe runs the AK platform very fluid and helps you realize its full potential. Gabe completely threw almost all the the old school firearms thought out, and built a program up from scratch. Sure people hated that, but now they all copy him. I saw it at a class I took last month. He even does interviews with real life SHTF survivors (like Katrina and even the Korean store owners during the LA riots that shot thugs from their roofs) and relays what he learned to students - and lets individuals make up their own minds. Gabe has never insulted another trainer or school in my presence, and encourages you to train at different places. The first thing Gabe says is that if you find a better way to do it, he is more than willing to try, his training is not static and he is not set in his ways. He treats everyone with more respect than any instructor I have ever worked with. He will not insult you or regress to demeaning you because of you choice of weapon for the class. If you bring an old SKS to his class, he will teach you to fight with it and you will be keeping up with the AKs and ARs by the end of the class. He will teach you to fight with what you have regardless of your financial status. We all have pasts and thats a fact. Its easy to be judgemental when we are not judgeing ourselves by the same criteria. In my experiences, which is all I have to go by, he is a great guy. All it takes is one stinging bee to get the whole hive into attack mode, I guess thats one of the problems with internet forums. Link to post Share on other sites
Bayoupiper 738 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Damn DD. Where were you when we needed you earlier? Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Can those of us not "in the know" get the cliff-notes to what happened, or is it out of line to ask that? +1 Link to post Share on other sites
mavrick16o 6 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 i always seem to be the last to know. if only they hadnt put that pos web filter in at work!!! Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 I apologize that there hasnt been a response to the memberships' inquiries as of yet. I am sure it will be forthcoming, in more aspects. Mr Suarez has become a Business Member of this forum, and was actually attacked in a verbal fashion by several members here upon doing so. This has been addressed by the staff of this forum, and me having dealt with the ongoing issues here for so long, have seen it unfold, and know about the various factors involved. I would strongly suggest that in the future, that anyone insulting a business member of this forum, or staff member addressing ANY vendor in the firearms community, do so in good taste. The staff is handling this matter, in a timely and serious fashion, and it is nothing to worry yourselves about, is all I can really say, or know. I also can say that it is a serious and current issue that is being addressed RIGHT NOW, so I thought that I would try to respond in an unoffcial extent, to your inquires. I am sure the staff of this forum can and will address this further. I personally, hope to see more of Mr. Suarez's thoughts on gunfighting posted on this forum, as it applies to the saiga platform, especially in how they apply to the Saiga shotguns, and all of us "peons" that are only there to help when the time may come.... Dont you worry about what happened. I know that the staff here is trying to, and will correct the situation ASAP. I used to lose sleep over things like this, and I can tell that they are discussing it right now. This translates to a good thing in a big way, for all of the rest of us, myself included. I expect this to be the last "ticket" that I am officially involved in, in any way shape or form, for this forum. I am only stating this now, and above, to try to help people understand that something bad has happened, and that it is in fact being addressed, and worked out with unsaid parties. If I were on staff still, now, I would fire the whole lot, as I have done so in the past. But that is not the case, and as such, I am entitled to my opinions now..... These guys are restructuring the staff and the duties here at the forums, please give them a break, will ya? I can attest that this place is at LEAST a part time job for some, and a full time job for others, and is vastly unrewarded (or was when I was still on staff, at least). Patience....have some of it. All I can say for Gabe? Is hands on, and practical knowledge is a HELL of a thing. You may want to listen to this man's unorthodox techniques. Attitude or not. Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 member 1 asked for reviews of Gabe's bookmember 2 said he would review member 3 said no thanks Gabe is stinky Oh, that? I've only see that up to that point. I wouldn't have tought it would evolve into e-drama like this. You guys might be taking this too seriously. Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 You guys might be taking this too seriously. +1 I missed the whole shebang, but c'mon guys, I'm sure a "warrior" like Gabe can take a little forum abuse; no matter who it comes from. Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Hmmm...I like this list 'cause it's pretty much down-to-earth, and for the most part, informative and light-hearted at the same time. I never envisioned this list, or the membership, as being part of a "business machine". Frankly, although I have not been here nearly as long as some of you, almost without exception during my time here, the "friction" has been because of a "business enterprise" of some sort conflicting with members or moderators or whatever. Seems to me that a little less emphasis on business $$$ and a little more consideration toward the minions that make this list viable might not be a bad direction. I'd certainly be willing to increase my donations to the list if I felt it were "our" list as opposed to an advertising vehicle. JMHO..... guido2 in Houston Link to post Share on other sites
joelrod47 373 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 IMHO, this thing has ground along to a point where it's time where everyone should just let it be done.......... There's been bullshit from both sides on this issue, and not just from the members of the S-12 Forum...... We've been called a bunch of monkeys on WarriorTalk within the last week............and there's been a bunch of trashtalking about Gabe on here, too.......... Gabe is now a business member, and like his stuff or not, he's put his money where his mouth is.........If you don't like his stuff, or you don't like him.....just don't participate in his Forum activities. Time will tell how it'll work out, and all the badmouthing (on both sides) won't accomplish shit. Let's all just move on, and it'll work out as it should. My $.02 Jeaux Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Very well said Guido2. VERY! Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 WTH?! I just refreshed the page after reading nicklebon's run-down of what happened, and now it's gone. Link to post Share on other sites
GPalmer 1 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Juggs and Cobra. I hope both of you remain. This place would lose a vital part of it's heart and soul without you being here. There certainly do appear to be some problems and I hope we can move forward professionally with everyone on board. If there is no way you can get along, the ignore feature is a great one... Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 WTH?! I just refreshed the page after reading nicklebon's run-down of what happened, and now it's gone. Yeah strange. I wonder why it got moderated out... anyways, i've preserved the first three lines for future generations. Link to post Share on other sites
GPalmer 1 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 WTH?! I just refreshed the page after reading nicklebon's run-down of what happened, and now it's gone. 'Cause it's time to move on not to dwell on past history... Link to post Share on other sites
Agias 0 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Juggs and Cobra. I hope both of you remain. This place would lose a vital part of it's heart and soul without you being here. +1 I haven't been here for too long yet, but i already can't imagine this place without Juggernaut and Cobra. Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted June 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Juggs and Cobra. I hope both of you remain. This place would lose a vital part of it's heart and soul without you being here. There certainly do appear to be some problems and I hope we can move forward professionally with everyone on board. If there is no way you can get along, the ignore feature is a great one... Please know that everything between Cobra, myself and/or anyone on staff (or staff advisers ) is fine. We have no quarrel with one another. Simply, I gave my word as a man about this place. I kindly asked for hostilities to cease and desist, they did not. Hence, I am unable to keep my word. My word is the only thing I truly have to give. I want it to be of some value.... Basically a good thread gone bad...I moved it... Link to post Share on other sites
ck43001 12 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Simply, I gave my word as a man about this place.I kindly asked for hostilities to cease and desist, they did not. Hence, I am unable to keep my word. My word is the only thing I truly have to give. I want it to be of some value.... Juggs, I'm not attacking you as I have no problem with the way you moderate here. But, you know the kind of treatment some of our members here have gotten at Gabe's board, so telling Gabe that there would be no ill will toward him is a little wishful thinking. It'd go a long way if Gabe himself made a post apologizing for the way he treated too many of our members. Don't carry the burden for a seed you never planted... Link to post Share on other sites
GPalmer 1 Posted June 30, 2008 Report Share Posted June 30, 2008 Juggs and Cobra. I hope both of you remain. This place would lose a vital part of it's heart and soul without you being here. There certainly do appear to be some problems and I hope we can move forward professionally with everyone on board. If there is no way you can get along, the ignore feature is a great one... Please know that everything between Cobra, myself and/or anyone on staff (or staff advisers ) is fine. We have no quarrel with one another. Simply, I gave my word as a man about this place. I kindly asked for hostilities to cease and desist, they did not. Hence, I am unable to keep my word. My word is the only thing I truly have to give. I want it to be of some value.... Basically a good thread gone bad...I moved it... Sorry Juggs, long day pressure washing in the hot sun left me incapable of phrasing simple English. I meant to address that to the two sides in the conflict not yourself and Cobra. My apologies for my lack of clarity! Link to post Share on other sites
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