Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Congrats on the new invention and on the new Business Member status . It's also good to hear that someone finally has a magwell coming (realistically). What kind of mags will we be able to use with it? More importantly though....and more directly on topic with this thread....does this new safety work without interfering with the BHO? From the pic, it looks like it might have something inside the receiver that's directly in the way. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
frick 3 Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 "Thank you. For the purpose it has been designed, it performs extrodinarily well. I need to emphasize the fact, this part was designed with the SAIGA 12 Competition shooter in mind." Ahhh, a race gun mod! Definitely limits the number of people using it, but, it does confine the the users to a group that should have more gun time than off the street, newbie, tards. Is it self install? That would really pin the end user down, because he then is the person doing the modification. Good luck, and keep thinking, we need more goodies for our AK based variants. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Congrats on the new invention and on the new Business Member status (eventually...). It's also good to hear that someone finally has a magwell coming (realistically). What kind of mags will we be able to use with it? More importantly though....and more directly on topic with this thread....does this new safety work without interfering with the BHO? From the pic, it looks like it might have something inside the receiver that's directly in the way. The Magwell is designed for the AGP magazines. I have been using the original prototype magwell for about four months and so has a friend of mine over in Texas. It has worked flawlessly!! I am waiting to get one of the new Surefire Magazines and make sure it will work. I don't see a problem as long as it is a bannanna style magazine. With regards to the BHO. The short answer; yes it will work. I take out the BHO for competition shotguns as I can not take the chance of the bolt locking open on the shotgun during competition. With the magazine well, loading the gun is no longer an issue. It loads extremely easy, with very little upward pressure and you do NOT have to modify the bolt like you do with Rock "N" lock loading. I modify the bolts anyway, just to polish out all the contact surfaces and for reliability. Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) Frick my man, Some day I hope to meet you. Please understand, most of your upgrades on weapon systems come either from being under fire in combat or thru competition. Remember this: SPEED IS A TACTIC IN ITSELF Here is one example: All of your red dot scopes/aiming systems originated from the Tasco Pro Point and the PDP II's and III's back in the 80's from IPSC Open Guns. Just like Indy, racing helps develope new systems. I LOVE racing and any competition in general!!! At this time I am probably going to do all the installs of the Sliding Safety at the shop, unless I know the customer has access to a milling machine and knows what's going on with the installation . It is not that hard, just not for the guy in an apartment, without access to a milling machine/gunsmith. I have an installation specification sheet for the product. I have Saiga 12 shotgun's currently pending delivery to the shop from some of the Top Shooters in the United States wanting the Safety installed. Stand by for their input about this safety after it is completed. As soon as there are enough of them out there with a proven track record, I will sell them to individuals. I can not take the chance at this time of someone trying to do the work on their Saiga with a dremel tool, not fitting it correctly and then badmouthing the product on the forum. This isn't about the money to me. Besides, my feelings get hurt easily. We stand behind it or I would not even waste my time in this regard. Like I said, it's not about the money, it's about the performance of the product/weapons system and the satisfaction one gains from it. Take care, Jack Edited December 18, 2008 by jdtravers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bayonet lug 1 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 I think its a good Idea. However I would also like to see a "fix" for the OEM safety. I hate how it gets stuck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
macross40k 0 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Once those magwells are up for order, I guarantee you'll have a great deal many interested individuals (depending on price I'd buy 3). And when the safety is eventually up for regular sale I'll definitely be picking one up for my 'in-process' competition gun. Awesome to see continuous new products coming out! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Frick my man, Some day I hope to meet you. To slap him? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ballistician 1 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 A new product. Neat. I'd rather see a ambi safety, so sinister lefties don't look like some goofy gun toting contortionist engaging the safety. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
frick 3 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) Are the Magwells capable of using stock mags, or do they have to be cut down with a notch added to retain them? My brother is the three gunner in the family, I don't really find gun competitions my bag, too much competition in the real world, I use mine to help relax me. He has noted though that guys have slowly been showing up with Saiga's, though I believe it puts them in a higher class, and some are hesitating to shoot with the better members. Of course, he keeps insisting that I lend him my S12, but, it would end up with the rest of the lent guns with him in Montana, and I wouldn't see it again, anytime soon. I do think that a key to the long term viability of the Saiga system is to get it "Mainstream", meaning, you get some pro's shooting them, and winning with them. While it may be a somewhat niche in the market, having non pro's see the Saiga Platform in use, and wanting one, means more demand, more units imported to be sold, etc, insuring more need for mags, stocks, and accessories, which help the entire Saiga industry grow. It also lends a legitimate "Sporting purpose" argument to the owners as well, since "Plinking" is no longer a sport. "Please understand, most of your upgrades on weapon systems come either from being under fire in combat or thru competition. " I do understand, my love is of military weapons, I got my first P38 when I was nine, and moved through German, US, English, Chinese, Russian, and com block as they have become available with the scouring of europe by our importers. Luckily, I only live about six miles from Dan's sporting goods, and I have been privilidged to be able to get in their and fondle some of the thousands if not millions of firearms he has brought into the US. Hell, I am still kicking myself for not taking a case of 50 bulgarian Makarovs, all brand new, in boxes, with holsters, lanyards, cleaning rods, and two magazines, still packed in the Armory crates, for, get this, 5 grand, 100 bucks each.....if only they could have been an IRA, instead of what I actually invested in...... Edited December 18, 2008 by frick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 A new product. Neat. I'd rather see a ambi safety, so sinister lefties don't look like some goofy gun toting contortionist engaging the safety. Lefties? When I think of left handed people, the movie "300" come to mind when they throw the defective babies off the cliff. Just kidding (kinda). This Safety can be installed on the left side of the receiver for lefties. It can mirror image. Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mark78410 0 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) I do have Jack Mag well for sometime now, and I do like it when i was reloading without the mag well i had to remove the mag out then put a new mag in it would take about 9 to 11 seconds with the mag well it only takes 3 to 5 seconds if that now and in 3-gun speed is everything. One thing I like best is that it load like an AR and the funnest thing I like best is when you push the Mag release it drop to the Ground and you don't have to remove it. Edited December 18, 2008 by mark78410 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) Welcome to the Board! You have an interesting product with your slide safety and I wish you great success with it. Even thought I do not believe it is suitable for my application, I hope that it is the boon to the competive shooter that you feel it is! I am possibly interested in your coming magwell. But your second post in this thread had two statements that kind of amused me, one has already been addressed by BobAsh, the second was, "This has been perhaps the biggest problem with the Saigas in the past." Do you really believe that is the Saiga's biggest problem? The lack of a last round auto bolt hold open is the problem that I have heard the most complains about, by far. But perhaps your marketing research is better then mine... Either way, welcome and best wishes. Edited December 18, 2008 by Azrial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) ANYTHING that makes our Saigas faster to operate is an upgrade. There is a line that you can cross in turning a gun into a race gun only piece, but I don't beleive a trigger operated safety is it. I do 3gun for one reason, to improve my ability to handle a defensive situation. The holy trinity is a drop free magwell, LRBHO, and bolt release. The safety is also a issue, I can operate it just fine, but only a purist would prefer it over a trigger finger operated one. So I guess you could change that to the holy quad. When those parts are available I'll put them on my S12, X39, and 308 so I have manual of arms. If you combine mechanical speed improvements with training you've got an edge in any application. Edited December 18, 2008 by Paladin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Jack, Welcome to the forum and I, for one am glad to see other individuals pushing the envelope with the Saiga-12 system. Please continue your efforts with the mag well and safety conversion and keep us informed of progress. Some forums can be pretty harsh on new people, however, since you have yet to turn any of us into a newt, we won't burn you at the stake. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Welcome to the Board! You have an interesting product with your slide safety and I wish you great success with it. Even thought that I do not believe it is suitable for my application, I hope that it is the boon to the competive shooter that you feel it is! I am possibly interested in your coming magwell. But your second post in this thread had two statements that kind of amused me, one has already been addressed by BobAsh, the second was, "This has been perhaps the biggest problem with the Saigas in the past." Do you really believe that is the Saiga's biggest problem? The lack of a last round auto bolt hold open is the problem that I have heard the most complains about, by far. But perhaps your marketing research is better then mine... Either way, welcome and best wishes. Absolutely, As far as I am concerned as a prior SF Operator and Full time competition shooter, I have no use for a LRBHO. It only applies to a Saiga 12 that you "Rock N Lock" the magazine to make it easier to insert. With the magwell the LRBHO has no bearing. The mag loads just like an AR. I still count rounds with pistol and shotgun, I trained that you never "Dry Fire" or have a Bolt Lock Back. This is not a good thing in "Real World" or in Competition. Put a magwell on the Saiga 12, know your round count, and a LRBHO is not an issue. This is my opinion and this is how I train. I shoot at National Level Competition, Work overseas as a Miltary Advisor, train Law Enforcement, Military Personnel and this is where I get my input. Take care, Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kresk 10,063 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Congrats and welcome as a business member. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) Well, the talk of a production magwell being so close has brought me out of forum retirement I don't know when the last time I logged in was, but I've been lurking with not much to say for about a year. (those who know me will be saying ... "not much to say? ... yeah, right" So, I don't know about it speeding things up much. In comp, I've always found time to swipe that safety while shouldering, and swipe down while decking. If working with a sling then I'd agree this will help. But my pet peeve, and it doesn't happen often enough to know what causes it, occasionally I'll reload, go to shoulder and yank the trigger ... only to find that the safety has slid up just a touch ... which is all it'll take! Probably happened 3 times, always a match (not practice) and so I've not stopped to diagnose. I'm sure I've bumped it somewhere along the line, but don't know how/where. Seems like this is bound to cure that from recurring .. nothing to bump. Welcome to the Board! You have an interesting product with your slide safety and I wish you great success with it. Even thought that I do not believe it is suitable for my application, I hope that it is the boon to the competive shooter that you feel it is! I am possibly interested in your coming magwell. But your second post in this thread had two statements that kind of amused me, one has already been addressed by BobAsh, the second was, "This has been perhaps the biggest problem with the Saigas in the past." Do you really believe that is the Saiga's biggest problem? The lack of a last round auto bolt hold open is the problem that I have heard the most complains about, by far. But perhaps your marketing research is better then mine... Either way, welcome and best wishes. Hey, Absolutely, As far as I am concerned as a prior SF Operator and Full time competition shooter, I have no use for a LRBHO. It only applies for a Saiga 12 that you "Rock N Lock" the magazine to make it easier to insert. With the magwell the LRBHO has no bearing. The mag loads just like an AR. I still count rounds with pistol and shotgun, I trained that you never "Dry Fire" or have a Bolt Lock Back. This is not a good thing in "Real World" or in Competition. Put a magwell on the Saiga 12, know your round count, and a LRBHO is not an issue. This is my opinion and this is how I train. Jack Azrial, what Jack said Seriously, I used to load on an open bolt to gain reliability and speed. I fumbled too many reloads with the bolt closed with the timer on. Then I practiced Not having to release the bolt will save valuable time! But, reading that folks are reloading in under 2 seconds ... I think it's time for moore practice! Let us know when we can get on the magwell list! Edited December 18, 2008 by kmoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ballistician 1 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 A new product. Neat. I'd rather see a ambi safety, so sinister lefties don't look like some goofy gun toting contortionist engaging the safety. Lefties? When I think of left handed people, the movie "300" come to mind when they throw the defective babies off the cliff. Just kidding (kinda). This Safety can be installed on the left side of the receiver for lefties. It can mirror image. Jack Nice. If someone bought two would it then be ambidextrous? I wonder cause when I watched my sister use the safety and load the weapon is looked goofy as hell. An ambi safety and galil would be rather nice fort those people I'd think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Welcome to the Board! You have an interesting product with your slide safety and I wish you great success with it. Even thought that I do not believe it is suitable for my application, I hope that it is the boon to the competive shooter that you feel it is! I am possibly interested in your coming magwell. But your second post in this thread had two statements that kind of amused me, one has already been addressed by BobAsh, the second was, "This has been perhaps the biggest problem with the Saigas in the past." Do you really believe that is the Saiga's biggest problem? The lack of a last round auto bolt hold open is the problem that I have heard the most complains about, by far. But perhaps your marketing research is better then mine... Either way, welcome and best wishes. Absolutely, As far as I am concerned as a prior SF Operator and Full time competition shooter, I have no use for a LRBHO. It only applies to a Saiga 12 that you "Rock N Lock" the magazine to make it easier to insert. With the magwell the LRBHO has no bearing. The mag loads just like an AR. I still count rounds with pistol and shotgun, I trained that you never "Dry Fire" or have a Bolt Lock Back. This is not a good thing in "Real World" or in Competition. Put a magwell on the Saiga 12, know your round count, and a LRBHO is not an issue. This is my opinion and this is how I train. I shoot at National Level Competition, Work overseas as a Miltary Advisor, train Law Enforcement, Military Personnel and this is where I get my input. Take care, Jack Well I knew it would only be a matter of time (once the magwell was mentioned) til this thread turned into another LRBHO debate... Jack, I respect your experience and training, and thank you very much for your service to our country, but I beg to differ on this issue. The LRBHO may not be necessary or required, in a race gun with a magwell, but it sure can't hurt anything either. If loading on a closed bolt is easy, then loading on an open bolt would be even easier. With a bolt release, I do not believe it would take any longer to get back on target than if you drop a mag with one in the chamber, load another, and commence firing. Two advantages I see right away... 1. You don't waste that one shot by having to keep one in the chamber. You fire ten, or twelve, or whatever...change out the mag just as fast, and fire that many more again.... 2. If you do happen to lose count, and you know that under stress that's going to happen to a lot of people, and does... (Everyone hasn't had the kind of intense training you have, in fact a large majority of competition shooters have not), you still know you can shoot it til it's dry, and get just as fast a reload. A magwell is great. AR's are just wonderful. Lots of folks want an AK to act like an AR. That's not my motivation really for wanting to get the magwell, LRBHO, and bolt release to revolutionize this awesome platform that is the S-12. In fact I've got almost no experience at all with ARs. I've only shot my friends' ARs and thought they were so so...give me an AK any day! I'm not a fan of people wanting to put AR furniture and other doodads on their AK's either, for that matter.... But I can't help but admit, those three features I listed above will definitely save a lot of time for the vast majority of shooters who use the S-12 in competition or service...not to mention will make the gun more pleasurable to shoot, for newer inexperienced users. I'm not going to debate this here any further. I sure do not want this to turn into a similar debate that I had, and others had going with Gabe Suarez on WT, about the addition of the magwell to the S-12 platform. I learned something from that. You can't tell a highly trained soldier ANYTHING they don't want to hear. He was VERY adamant about the magwell being a complete waste of time and all you had to do was practice rocking a locking a million times. Well....I'm sorry, that just ain't so... In fact it wasn't long after that...he was actually embracing the magwell idea and thinking of making them himself. In closing, I'll say again...welcome to the Business section and congrats on your new products. I look forward to seeing them come out. Please try and think of the number one item this particular Business Member plans to make a huge splash in the S-12 marketplace with (the LRBHO), as a little more than a waste of time with a magwell. I have seen evidence that this is not true. Many people will benefit from it greatly, who might not happen to be special forces trained. IMO the sliding safety idea has nothing to offer that the modified speed selectors didn't already have, and they look like they belong there, and require no mods at all to the weapon itself. I have one on one of my AKs, complete with a custom designed bolt stop, and I see no room for improvement there. That said, I was reserving that comment til I had actually tried one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) Edited December 18, 2008 by Azrial Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigcraig 0 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 I have no issues with the stock safety. The magwell is all I am interested in, with LRBHO a close second. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 The magwell sounds great! I'm interested, pending the details. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Jack, Once things are clear on your side to do so, a video link of the magwell and safety in action on the gun would sure go a long way to show how this set up performs. I have to say that when I saw the safety lever the first thought was "why"?, but with the introduction of the magwell with it I'm very curious to see how the mag drop interacts with the location of the safety lever. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Thanks guys, appreciate the positive comments. Some of the forum members are kinda viscous, but everyone is welcome to an opinion. I am slammed right now. I really opened up the door here and can't get off the phone during business hours, doing all the machine/prototype work in the evening. Will start a new thread on the magwell either this evening or tomorrow. I am also looking at having replacement Saiga 12 Barrels made. Just got the specifications/prints back today and we will look for a CNC/Barrel Maker to do a few barrels. I will start another thread in this regard. Let me clarify some comments I made earlier in regards to my personal priority modifications to the Saiga. I am all for a LRBHO device and I would want one. I just get a little pissed when someone questions my opinion on what I consider priority mods, it is my opinion for my style of shooting/technique and I am entitled to it. Regards, Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mark78410 0 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Jack I tried to upload a pic of a mag well and got shot down so who knows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rssfndly 14 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Nice looking safety set up. If installed in The left side is it low enough to not interfere with the scope mount? If I missed that Q&A in the thread I apologize. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jdtravers 637 Posted December 18, 2008 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Nice looking safety set up. If installed in The left side is it low enough to not interfere with the scope mount? If I missed that Q&A in the thread I apologize. [/quote I remove all the original scope mounts on the Saigas I build, but the answer is yes it will hit the stock scope mount. Jack Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gtnichols 51 Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 so we have 3 new products here? New slide safetey. LRBHO and MAG well?? wWWhhhEEEEhwwww WEEEE! I have to wonder if the magwell will work with the new 12 round mags coming out?? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 I'd like to see a magwell that works with the MD drum. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 I'd like to see a magwell that works with the MD drum. What Bob said!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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