jacknast76 2 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 ok 1st if there is a thread that asks this let me know and ignore the rest. I'm looking to get 3 types of 12 gauge ammo to basically cover all situations. Birdshot for home defense, and small game, buckshot for medium game and slugs for large game and maybe some non lethal options (ammo to go.com). I have been ramping up to start reloading (manuals, press) And I want to get some good ammo in each three departments (bird, buck, slug) I consider this part of my reloading hobby research. What brands would you reccomend? I want to buy 100-500 rds of each type use them for practice and then reload them. Better yet pretty much get 1 type of primer, powder, wad, etc. etc. I'm sure this isn't totally possible but the least amount of parts to reload all types is the best. It also has to cycle through my Saiga 12, 5, 10 and drum good. I would prefer not to have to worry about my gas setting either and the drum spring. With ya'lls help I can find the best food from my 12 gauge hog. So what do you think? What are the best ammos' for Saiga 12's in each of these categories? 1. Birdshot/pigeon 2. Buckshot 3. Slug 4. nonlethal (if any) Thanks. JNast Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 (edited) Everything I've read said #4 buck should be the minimum for HD/SD. "poor penetration is the reason that birdshot, in any gauge, is a poor defense load." Edited December 18, 2008 by hobbyshooter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 While Birdshot is OK, it doesn't have the individual pellet mass to reliably penetrate. #4 Buck for HD. Bird for small game 00Buck for Med Game/HD Slugs for Large game/HD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
superA 289 Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 Load that sucka up with Buckshot for HD. It's not like you are going to be shooting through cases of it. It seems that out of the Wal-Mart 100 round packs Federal has the least duds, a little more consistent. Get number 6 or 7 shot it will take a turkey down and it will not destroy rabbit or squirrel. As far as what type or brand of Buck or slug I just can't tell you. Don't have enough experience with either. I did use the Brenke KO slugs to shoot a buck this year. They are accurate and not much recoil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 I don't understand. Why would you want penetration in a load used for home defense? I don't think its wise to have a load that would be capable of going through walls to where your kids are sleeping while you're shooting at a perp in another room. Also, given the way that the laws are so screwed up nowadays, it may be better to use LL rounds to scare the perp off rather than to kill or maim. (remember the burgaler that broke his leg in the house he was robbing who then sued and won?) But then again I'm talking from the point of view of being in Kalifornia where law makers are more in favor of criminals rather than well armed law abiding citizens. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MRboost 0 Posted February 19, 2009 Report Share Posted February 19, 2009 ^^sad but true...this world is ass backwards. Either way just make sure you shoot him on your property and while he is facing you. Apparently you aren't allowed to shoot a robber in the back either...I think there is something real screwy about all of this because in the event that its friggin dark....i'm not going to be worried whether he's facing me and i'm probably going to be tucked behind a corner of a wall......sigh Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Like you, I asked myself the same questions and here is what I came up with: Bird shot look great when shooting paper but not when shooting an intruder wearing a heavy leather jacket at the opposing end of your living room (7-8 yards or more). 7 1/2 bird shot will not even go through the wooden sticks holding your paper target... For HD, you need enough penetration to do the job but not go through walls like a slug or #00 bucks would. According to many professionals, #1 Buckshot is the best load for HD (16 pellets loads). They are easier to control and each pellet has enough velocity and mass to do the job but not enough to become a liability after hitting a wall or a thug. It has the best cross section of any load and is effective beyond 25 yards. I good mag load for HD would be 2 x #4 bird shots and 3 x #1 Buckshots (or more depending on your mag). The first two shots will slow an intruder down quite a bit and if you miss, the shots will not go through your interior walls this will buy you the time to aim for the following #1 Buckshots. With a 10 rounds mag, you can put some #00 at the end if you end up in a "shoot him through the wall" situation. Slugs will do on mid size and large game while #4 bird shot should do well on any size bird (the smaller the bird, the smaller the pellet you can use and a Poly-Choke II will improve their efficiency greatly). Edited February 20, 2009 by The Globule Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RobRez 1,895 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Birdshot may only get you a couple of inches of penetration, especially if a target is wearing a leather jacket. It does seem universally accepted that #4 buck on up is the way to go. As for slugs I just shot a 3shot 5" group with cheap winchester slugs from wall-mart. $3.17 for a 5 round box. the same ammo gives me the same size group rapid-fire at 25 yards. It's just a bit dirty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) Oh, I forgot... Less than lethal... You are jocking, right? If you want less than lethal, don't use a gun in the first place and be prepared to be killed or brought to court by your opponent. Leave less than lethal ammo to law enforcement, they are the people they were developed for. You have no business using them to defend yourself. Edited February 20, 2009 by The Globule Quote Link to post Share on other sites
cbang 0 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 When I was 15 years old. A couple of friends and I were ambushed and three of my friends were shot. One friend was shot in the back, another in the back of his calf and one in the head. Guess what, all three survived and were out of the hospital the same night. So, birdshot is worhless for humans. First hand experince. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rocketman 1 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 (edited) I don't understand. Why would you want penetration in a load used for home defense? I don't think its wise to have a load that would be capable of going through walls to where your kids are sleeping while you're shooting at a perp in another room. Also, given the way that the laws are so screwed up nowadays, it may be better to use LL rounds to scare the perp off rather than to kill or maim. (remember the burgaler that broke his leg in the house he was robbing who then sued and won?) But then again I'm talking from the point of view of being in Kalifornia where law makers are more in favor of criminals rather than well armed law abiding citizens. You are either authorized by law to use deadly force or you aren't. Just branishing a weapon with the intent of scaring someone off is a very poor idea. Actually pointing a weapon at someone you don't intend to kill is even worse. If you just want to scare someone off buy a baseball bat. Edited February 20, 2009 by rocketman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Oh, I forgot...Less than lethal... You are jocking, right? If you want less than lethal, don't use a gun in the first place and be prepared to be killed or brought to court by your opponent. Leave less than lethal ammo to law enforcement, they are the people they were developed for. You have no business using them to defend yourself. +1 Less lethal ammo is a very poor choice for home defense. You should never point a gun at someone you are not prepared to kill. Just like "shooting to wound", they would argue that you shouldn't have shot at all unless responding to a life threatening situation. I can't word that very concisely, but then I'm not a lawyer. What I'm saying is, they would argue you can't legally shoot someone without shooting to kill. Anybody else got a take on this? BTW trust me, birdshot is only good for birds. It is mostly ineffective against larger targets. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Wow! Thats crazy! So if you're gonna shoot, better shoot to kill ortherwise you might get sued? I can't believe that the laws are that screwed up. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmorgan 2 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Wow! Thats crazy! So if you're gonna shoot, better shoot to kill ortherwise you might get sued? I can't believe that the laws are that screwed up. 20 years as a cop says BELIEVE IT !! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted February 20, 2009 Report Share Posted February 20, 2009 Wow! Thats crazy! So if you're gonna shoot, better shoot to kill ortherwise you might get sued? I can't believe that the laws are that screwed up. 20 years as a cop says BELIEVE IT !! +1 "One story, end of story" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gothmog 24 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 My HD mag load is a 5 rounder loaded with 2 of my "special" non leathal rounds, then 2 #4 shot , then 1 00 buck. Have second 5 rounder on stand by loaded with 1 1/4 oz slug super loads, if I gets to that ,it will go thru just about anyone/thing. Oh, and 13 x of 45 acp as back up will prolly finish the job. If not, time to high tail it. HUZZAH!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 Wow! Thats crazy! So if you're gonna shoot, better shoot to kill ortherwise you might get sued? I can't believe that the laws are that screwed up. A firearm can only be used in self defense when the peril is so great that you must use deadly force. Any other usage is a self-admission that you over reacted and that there was not legitimate need for a firearm. To those that totally dismiss bird shot as a defensive load, my suggestion is to shoot a piece of 1/4" plywood from 8-10 feet away, look at the hole, and tell me then if you think that kind of wound would have stopped you? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 +1 for #4 buck for HD. While birdshot works OK if you're so close to the guy that he's almost touching your barrel, I would prefer something with a tad more penetration. #4 buck seems to be about right for me. The farther away you get, the heavier your pellets need to be to maintain penetration. It's all about inertia, mass and kinetic energy. Birdshot doesn't generally go through many walls and kill folks on the other side though. Likewise, it may not penetrate the bad guy's leather jacket and sternum enough to do sufficient damage to his heart or lungs to stop him. Conversely, you PROBABLY won't need the over-penetration of slugs for HD in my opinion. Not unless you're engaged in a gunfight and needing to shoot through cover. You'll definitely want to know where all your friends and foes are though. Slugs can go through several walls and kill people on the other side. They can go through car doors too. My personal opinion on LL ammo is that UNLESS you're trying to capture somebody alive, AND you have a team to back you up with lethal rounds, it's a poor choice. If you use it to "scare" someone, you'll probably be sued. Don't get me wrong, it's OK for getting dogs out of your garbage without making too much noise, but not where you're trying to defend yourself. Take that for what it's worth. It's just my opinion. However, I CAN say from personal experience that a bean bag to the gut WILL double you over and probably drop you to the ground. They suck bigtime. I had a bruise for 3 weeks. Still, I could have returned fire if I had too I think. LL ammo will probably not cycle your Saiga, just so you know. Anything with enough power to cycle will be too powerful for LL I think. For general small game use, I like #6 shot or larger. I tend to stay away from #8 unless I'm wanting to shoot small birds or snakes. Besides, my Saiga sometimes will short stroke the action with Federal #8, but not with the Federal 6 and a half. Same weight load, same powder charge. Go figure. If you're not wanting to have to adjust the gas setting, don't go with 3" rounds. I personally can fire all but #8 birdshot or lighter on setting 1, but my gun is probably a little overgassed. Depending on your particular Saiga, you might still want to adjust your setting when switching between high brass and low brass rounds. Basically, you want the lowest setting that will reiably cycle your gun for each load. I hope this helped. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted February 21, 2009 Report Share Posted February 21, 2009 If you insist of using Bird shot for HD, use #4 turkey loads... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Wow! Thats crazy! So if you're gonna shoot, better shoot to kill ortherwise you might get sued? I can't believe that the laws are that screwed up. A firearm can only be used in self defense when the peril is so great that you must use deadly force. Any other usage is a self-admission that you over reacted and that there was not legitimate need for a firearm. To those that totally dismiss bird shot as a defensive load, my suggestion is to shoot a piece of 1/4" plywood from 8-10 feet away, look at the hole, and tell me then if you think that kind of wound would have stopped you? Thank you! I knew somebody could phrase that much better than I. Thats exactly what I was trying to say. I'd like to address the issue of birdshot for HD, however. This discussion comes up from time to time and always seems to generate a good bit of debate. I do not believe birdshot to be a viable anti-personnel round. Although the shot cup keeps the shot charge together in the first ten or fifteen feet of flight, I do not believe that it will act like a slug upon impact. The cross sectional density of the individual pellets is insufficient to produce a wound cavity deeper than an inch or two. I say this from experience treating gunshot wound victims. Every year in this country several people attempt to take their own life using 12 gauge birdshot. These wounds are about as close range as you can get, being self inflicted. Here's an example: Now, this is undoubtedly a messy, nasty wound. There are multiple skull fractures throughout the frontal lobe and multiple projectiles in the right eye socket. However, this person is not dead. In fact he did not die, hes just permanently blind and disfigured. Here's another example of a close-range birdshot wound: This person is demonstrating a left hemothorax (blood in the lung) from multiple birdshot pellets in the chest. The white lines are EKG leans and a chest tube. The pellets that struck bone did not penetrate into the lung, only the pellets that went between the ribs. While the shot penetrated deep enough to puncture a lung, notice the almost complete lack of bony-damage to the ribs. Contrast this to a surgical film of a buckshot wound to an elbow: Notice that although there are only several pellets in the elbow, there is extreme comminution (crushing) of the bony fragments. This is typical of high-energy impacts and is a significant difference from the films we saw of the birdshot wounds. Hopefully this will help shed some light once and for all on the debate of birdshot for HD. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, I'm just sharing what I've learned from personal experience in the hopes that it will help somebody else. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacknast76 2 Posted February 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 (edited) Also remember there will be 5-20 rnds of bird shot flying at the target. If that doesn't stop someone maybe a swift buttstroke to the head when they are disoriented. Edited February 22, 2009 by jacknast76 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Good pix. I always figured #4 buck or larger, looks like I was right! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted February 22, 2009 Report Share Posted February 22, 2009 Also remember there will be 5-20 rnds of bird shot flying at the target. If that doesn't stop someone maybe a swift buttstroke to the head when they are disoriented. Wouldn't one round of buckshot be better? Or 5-20 rounds for that matter? I don't understand peoples resistance to this idea. Birdshot doesn't work on people. It mostly just maims them so they can sue you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Good pix. I always figured #4 buck or larger, looks like I was right! I'd no go any smaller either. You don't want to kill the person, you want to stop them. Stop them by killing them really really fast! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Good pix. I always figured #4 buck or larger, looks like I was right! I'd no go any smaller either. You don't want to kill the person, you want to stop them. Stop them by killing them really really fast! LOL! +1 Stop them by killing them really really fast! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacknast76 2 Posted February 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 I agree 100%, only use a firearm if life is trully threatened and then shoot to kill. I only use birdshot for clay pigeons and practice. Heck even less than #4 won't necessarily take a goose or a duck, cleanly. I've got military grade OO buck and rifled slugs to put the bad guys to bed. However I wouldn't unload a magazine loaded with birdshot to load it with buckshot in the face of an intruder. The original intent of the thread was to find one good birdshot round for clay pigeons and practice, and good buckshot round and a good slug round. Once one of each type was ID'd I'd then stock up on them and start reloading. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Sorry, I got a little off topic with the whole "birdshot for defense" argument. Just a pet peev of mine I suppose. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted February 23, 2009 Report Share Posted February 23, 2009 Here's a good example of a bird shot injury, which made national news: Whittington Injury. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
maroast 1 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 (edited) Birdshot doesn't work on people. I've personally seen two people shot in the face with birdshot. One 12G and the other 20G.... you could tell what gauge is was because the ME was able to pull the wad out of the brain goop. I'd say the birdshot did its job in these cases. With that said, my HD shotgun is still loaded with OO buck. Edited February 24, 2009 by maroast Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted February 24, 2009 Report Share Posted February 24, 2009 My HD mag load is a 5 rounder loaded with 2 of my "special" non leathal rounds, then 2 #4 shot , then 1 00 buck. Have second 5 rounder on stand by loaded with 1 1/4 oz slug super loads, if I gets to that ,it will go thru just about anyone/thing. Oh, and 13 x of 45 acp as back up will prolly finish the job. If not, time to high tail it. HUZZAH!! Wow that seems overly complicated. I would hate to be in a position when you need that first rounds to be the real deal and have a less than round come out. I've always wondered why people people programmed their shotgun shell order like they expect to fire a warning shot or 2 and then some bird shot and then be serious, pretty convoluted. I think the best advice is load up your mags with all 00 buck or all slugs period. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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