Thunderchild 0 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 This may be a goofy thought but after playing around with an S12 and installing an extended mag release, the thought came to me. I'm not an engineer, and have no idea what the follower would look like but heck, what about a mag about the length of the Surefire 12 round but double stacked with 20 rounds? Is this feasible? Technically a an Ak mag is double stack, correct? Sure, it would be fat but what the heck, I've had a couple glasses of wine and thought I'd ask. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yesno 1 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 well since there was an experimental quad stack mags. for an AK. Why not............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GPalmer 1 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Most folks in the know seem to feel it isn't possible due to the rim on the 12 gauge shell but they'd seel like hotcakes if you could produce them... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Thunderchild 0 Posted May 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 MD Arms did a fantastic job with his 20 round drum. If Mike could do this, you're right, it would sell like hot cakes. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Most folks in the know seem to feel it isn't possible due to the rim on the 12 gauge shell but they'd seel like hotcakes if you could produce them... Is the 10 round mag for a 7.62x54R Dragunov single stack then? From what I remember.... it is. However, if not, copy its design and scale it up accordingly. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Most folks in the know seem to feel it isn't possible due to the rim on the 12 gauge shell but they'd seel like hotcakes if you could produce them... Is the 10 round mag for a 7.62x54R Dragunov single stack then? From what I remember.... it is. However, if not, copy its design and scale it up accordingly. Pardon me, but you lost me... How does copying a design and scaling it up to accommodate double stacked 12g rnds, solve the inherent problems with double stacked rimmed cartridges binding together? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Most folks in the know seem to feel it isn't possible due to the rim on the 12 gauge shell but they'd seel like hotcakes if you could produce them... Is the 10 round mag for a 7.62x54R Dragunov single stack then? From what I remember.... it is. However, if not, copy its design and scale it up accordingly. Pardon me, but you lost me... How does copying a design and scaling it up to accommodate double stacked 12g rnds, solve the inherent problems with double stacked rimmed cartridges binding together? The 7.62x54R is also rimmed. The Dragunov (or better yet the FPK) is semi-auto / gas operated with the Kalasnikov design like the Saiga. My suggestion was to copy the solution to an analogous problem. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 However, its a moot point if the FPK mag is a single stack. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yesno 1 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) Barrett 50 bmg magazine holds them 12ga. shells . Mag is about 1 1/4 times to long . Holds 9 12ga shell. Edited May 11, 2009 by yesno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 Barrett 50 bmg magazine holds them 12ga. shells . Mag is about 2 1/4 times to long . Holds 9 12ga shell. Problem is that the 50 BMG is rimless and double stacks are well established for those type of rounds. Rimmed cartridges are another whole ballgame. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 It is a great idea, but difficult to accomplish with rimmed, straight-wall, cartridge case. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 It is a great idea, but difficult to accomplish with rimmed, straight-wall, cartridge case. That is what separates it out from the Drag/FPK/PSL mags Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yesno 1 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) Barrett 50 bmg magazine holds them 12ga. shells . Mag is about 2 1/4 times to long . Holds 9 12ga shell. Problem is that the 50 BMG is rimless and double stacks are well established for those type of rounds. Rimmed cartridges are another whole ballgame. Psl 54c is a double stack 7.62x54r which is rimmed.. I think it could be done if the geometry is right. Edited May 11, 2009 by yesno Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackback 135 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 It is a great idea, but difficult to accomplish with rimmed, straight-wall, cartridge case. That is what separates it out from the Drag/FPK/PSL mags hmmm... yeah, I have to agree with that major hurdle. The only remotely analogous feeding system I can think of is the long stack magazine on a gatling gun model 1871. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 (edited) I've helped load and fire an 1883 Gatling in .45-70 caliber that belonged to a collector. The "stick" magazines function more like a hopper than a true magazine as they are gravity fed with no feed lips. The Accles feeder or "drum" has internal construction similar to a MD-20 or Wraithmaker drum. The rim of the 12 ga. shotshell will not be easy to design into an alternating feed of a double-wide stick magazine as the shells must slide over each other during feeding only if they are loaded into the magazine that way. Nikonov and his Izmash design team, found the single most difficult part of engineering a Saiga shotgun from a rifle design, was constructing a single-stack box magazine for rimmed shotshells that worked consistently. Edited May 11, 2009 by Ronswin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hick 0 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 There are double stacked 22lr rimfire mags that work fine in 10/22's. Obviously not the same as a 12 gauge but they are a rimmed straight wall cartrige. It may take some figuring to do in 12 gauge but I'm confident it can be done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted May 11, 2009 Report Share Posted May 11, 2009 I'm still waiting for that belt fed S-12! Ladies and Gentlemen, make a US manufactured double stack mag of high quality and pretty much everyone here will buy at least one, until then as they say put-up or shut-up. Crap, you could make a Chinese one and all the faux-Patriots will buy them from you. These double stack mag threads have been going on for years, where are they? Years ago there was talk about a 20-round drum, few believed it would come to be, until a fucking brilliant man both put-up the investment capitol and shut-up all the non-believers, when he released the MD-20 drum; possibly one of the most bad-ass accessories for the S-12 ever made. Yet, there are still no double stack mags nor metal mags, why do you think that is? Please I beg you, prove my arrogance in believing that we will never see these products incorrect! Make me eat my words, I'll STFU, tell you that you freaking rock, AND on top of it pay you cash for your product! ...It may take some figuring to do in 12 gauge but I'm confident it can be done. If you're confident that it can be done, do it, the free market is open to you. You don't even need to do any market research and you already have customers. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 There are double stacked 22lr rimfire mags that work fine in 10/22's. ... Damn few, compared to the vast number that don't work worth a damn. And that is my point, is is very difficult, I did not say that it was impossible. Please there is the matter of scale... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I think if the double stack mag was really feasible and reliable it would have been out by no. I see that anything with a capacity more than 10 or 12 rnds is a drum and thats not only for the Saiga either. The AA-12 uses a 20rnd drum and a 36rnd drum. Obviously with all the engineering involved with that gun, I'm sure they looked into designing a double stacked mag for it but probably realized that it was not possible to engineer that into something that can work reliably in any condition, especially for combat. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 (edited) These double stack mag threads have been going on for years, where are they? Years ago there was talk about a 20-round drum, few believed it would come to be, until a fucking brilliant man both put-up the investment capitol and shut-up all the non-believers, when he released the MD-20 drum; possibly one of the most bad-ass accessories for the S-12 ever made. Yet, there are still no double stack mags nor metal mags, why do you think that is? Let's get the history straight. First shotshell drum that I'm aware of was the USAS12. 20 rounder and been around for ~20 years. Shotgun also had 10 round stick mags. Mike started with the USAS12 drum and adapted it to the S12. After he announced his intentions the Wraithmaker came out with a new design and beat him to the market by a year or two. And somewhere along the line a european company copied WM's drum, lightened it up and has it on the market too. All of the naysayers about the drum were not about it's possibilities (USAS12 was a proven concept, and Wakal was already competing with it to boot). The concerns were the odds of enticing our gov't nannies to take our shotguns away via a declaration of DD status. As for the double stack ... Given the USAS 12 uses a high capacity and mag fed design ... I'd guess it has been worked on for 20 years. So, yea, I'd be happy to join your bet with Hick. You can choose the time frame (5 years?). I'll bet there will not be a doublestack 12ga mag on the market that matches the reliability of my drums or stick mags. And I'll give you 2 to 1 odds:) Edited May 12, 2009 by kmoore Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I have a double stack 50rd mag for my 10/22, it blows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I have a double stack 50rd mag for my 10/22, it blows. Best post in this thread. If they can't make it reliable for metallic cartridges, it's gonna be pretty hard to do it with shotshells of differing sizes. I was thinking it could be done if you went with a zig-zag pattern in the mag that the rounds have to follow... as they would keep them from tumbling... but good luck dealing with all that added friction. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hick 0 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 I have a double stack 50rd mag for my 10/22, it blows. Yes, there are also ones that aren't worth shit. As a business venture I'd say it's a risky investment, another AWB and your done. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted May 12, 2009 Report Share Posted May 12, 2009 Let's get the history straight. First shotshell drum that I'm aware of was the USAS12. 20 rounder and been around for ~20 years. Shotgun also had 10 round stick mags. Mike started with the USAS12 drum and adapted it to the S12. After he announced his intentions the Wraithmaker came out with a new design and beat him to the market by a year or two. And somewhere along the line a european company copied WM's drum, lightened it up and has it on the market too. All of the naysayers about the drum were not about it's possibilities (USAS12 was a proven concept, and Wakal was already competing with it to boot). The concerns were the odds of enticing our gov't nannies to take our shotguns away via a declaration of DD status. As for the double stack ... Given the USAS 12 uses a high capacity and mag fed design ... I'd guess it has been worked on for 20 years. So, yea, I'd be happy to join your bet with Hick. You can choose the time frame (5 years?). I'll bet there will not be a doublestack 12ga mag on the market that matches the reliability of my drums or stick mags. And I'll give you 2 to 1 odds:) Yep, this is all correct. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
termite 463 Posted May 13, 2009 Report Share Posted May 13, 2009 Hell, I can get crazy with the best of them. Why not some type of helical drum like the Calico uses. Maybe Tony could design a belt fed S12 that could use either a belt or side mounted helical drum Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Hell, I can get crazy with the best of them. Why not some type of helical drum like the Calico uses. Maybe Tony could design a belt fed S12 that could use either a belt or side mounted helical drum There was a designer who worked up spec's on a shotgun that had shotshells loaded perpendicular to the bbl ... i.e. they lay flat left to right and above the bbl I think. They had worked out turning the shell as it loaded into the chamber. Been ~2 or maybe 3 years since I checked in with them ... can't even remember thier website now. Back then I thought for sure that it was only the promised 6 months from market I've grown a lot more skeptical since then Memory isn't my strong point (obviously) ... but it might have been a pump shotgun. Let's see, if you had the track be 18 inches long you could fit like 20 rounds in it! I'm thinking the gattling gun had it right ... let's set up a shotgun with a hopper ... when you run dry you grab a box, rip it open and dump it in ... If the gun jams just shake it a bit ... Yea, lots of potential. Honestly, I don't know why someone doesn't design a belt fed. I've heard guys talk about it and it does seem doable (as more than a april fool prank for those who have been a round a while). Even if AWB II becomes a reality, seems like a good market for one in the military. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 (edited) There was a designer who worked up spec's on a shotgun that had shotshells loaded perpendicular to the bbl ... i.e. they lay flat left to right and above the bbl I think. They had worked out turning the shell as it loaded into the chamber. Been ~2 or maybe 3 years since I checked in with them ... can't even remember thier website now. Back then I thought for sure that it was only the promised 6 months from market I've grown a lot more skeptical since then Halo Mfg IIRC Can't seem to dig up the picture of the whole shotgun Edited May 15, 2009 by scoutjoe Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmax4x4 68 Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 (edited) Can't seem to dig up the picture of the whole shotgun http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...mp;#entry359262 got the old video couldn't find a pic Coming in 2007 :lolol: Why so much confidence in development time for gun and gun accessory manufactures. Everyone needs to be realistic in the projected dates. And I already have a working design for a double stacked 20 round mag. I will post a pic if I can find my role of duct tape Edited May 15, 2009 by madmax4x4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dannyfantasy2000 68 Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 Hell, I can get crazy with the best of them. Why not some type of helical drum like the Honestly, I don't know why someone doesn't design a belt fed. I've heard guys talk about it and it does seem doable (as more than a april fool prank for those who have been a round a while). Even if AWB II becomes a reality, seems like a good market for one in the military. That would be sweet. You could coil the rounds like in a machinegun drum and have crazy capacity. With a SAW drum you could probably fit 30 or 35. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dannyfantasy2000 68 Posted May 15, 2009 Report Share Posted May 15, 2009 On top of that, an open-bolt shotgun could possibly be more reliable when it comes to feeding. And more, no mag problems! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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