atxshooter 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 hi, i have some questions.....i would like a decent optic for my converted rifle i use this gun for the occasional hunt, range, home protection, etc. i love my saiga i try to use it for everything.....so what can you reccomend? what are yall using? ive seen some people using vortex, any reviews? what about using aimpoint or eotech clones? i went to a gun show today and had a chance to mess with an eotech sight and a replica and could hardly tell the difference if any at all, thanks for the help! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 hi, i have some questions.....i would like a decent optic for my converted rifle i use this gun for the occasional hunt, range, home protection, etc. i love my saiga i try to use it for everything.....so what can you reccomend? what are yall using? ive seen some people using vortex, any reviews? what about using aimpoint or eotech clones? i went to a gun show today and had a chance to mess with an eotech sight and a replica and could hardly tell the difference if any at all, thanks for the help! I can't say many good things about the knock offs. Ive seen the eotech gear that ebairsoft.com is putting out, and they stink. They also have a really bad replica Kobra that I bought, but had major ghosting issues. That being said, the best Comm-Block optic is the PK-AS-V. Accept nothing less. Don't buy shit, you get what you pay for. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rhodes1968 1,638 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 Scout mounted? The red dots work very well in that position. Bushnell has a recent offering in the Trophy series that has back up sights built right in and so far good reviews. Wont cost an arm and a leg either. http://www.amazon.com/Bushnell-Tactical-El...0508&sr=8-1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atxshooter 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 thank you for the replies, i will look into the pk...it looks intresting i am not sure on my mount yet i have a quad rail so i was considering a scout style mount, i am going to look into this bushnell as well...thanks to you both what about magnification? i know this is not a longrange rifle but maybe a 2x-4x? is it worth it? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 (edited) thank you for the replies, i will look into the pk...it looks intresting i am not sure on my mount yet i have a quad rail so i was considering a scout style mount, i am going to look into this bushnell as well...thanks to you both what about magnification? i know this is not a longrange rifle but maybe a 2x-4x? is it worth it? If your going with a rail system, use ultimak and an aimpoint optic. If you intend to use the rifle as it was designed, go with the PK-AS-V, or PK-AS-S or Kobra. Things to avoid: 1: Rails made by airsoft companies like UTG 2:Optics made for airsoft rifles (knock offs) 3: Avoid the LaRue IronDot until he ditches the looser Burris optic Avoid these three things and I won't laugh at you behind your back..... Edited August 31, 2009 by bigsal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atxshooter 0 Posted August 31, 2009 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 lol you better start laughin cause i got the quad rail from utg ha ha wel im going to do alot of research before dving into an optic glad i got some info and input...thanks again Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rockina 60 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I just bought the "Strikefire" by Vortex, look for some reviews of it on here, it has a 2X removable lens that comes with it, it's about $160 delivered, it's a Red or Green dot sight, varable intensity dot...LIFETIME warranty..comes with a choice of rings,(using the AR rings you can co-witness). It's really a nice well made optic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I'll add to the laughter, I've been running the Ultimak tube and Burris FastFire for about a year now. It's a great budget setup. I've run 3GUN competitions and a 500-600rd class with it without any problems. I have also used it on my S12. I have a friend that also has 2 of them and they've run fine. The hot set up is the Aimpoint H1/T1 on the Ultimak rail. The Aimpoint will allow a co-witness the EOTech will not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I use the burris fastfire on my Shotgun and it never "blinks" and i've had ZERO issues with it. It's probably the best Red-Dot min-optic for under $200. If you want the BEST mini-red dot, get a Cmore .... they have a new lil-beast of an optic that mimics the docter/fastfire but it's more solid and around $250-$300 i think. It's new so idk. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I use the burris fastfire on my Shotgun and it never "blinks" and i've had ZERO issues with it. It's probably the best Red-Dot min-optic for under $200. Under $200 being the key phrase. I don't know of a single optic I would trust in that segment. Ever dropped your burris with any weight on it? I don't trust shit that can't take a fall. I mean you really do get what you pay for optics wise. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BrutalGardener 205 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 I have a (Belo)Russian POSP 4x24 illuminated reticle scope that I put on during the hunting reason. It works very well for hunting deer in my area. The rest of the year, I use a PK-AS collimator. I chose this scope, because it has something called a "black dot", which makes it work without batteries in daylight. I hate to have to rely on batteries in my optics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DEshooter 1 Posted August 31, 2009 Report Share Posted August 31, 2009 My x39 is set up with the Bushnell mentioned above...on a BN02 quick release. No complaints as of yet...only a couple hundred rnds thru with it on...bullet goes where the red dot is. The red/green and brightness options are a plus for bright or low light conditions. The only negative is the weight...it is near a pound. For the little bit of carrying and shooting I do...weight doesn't matter. If I was hiking alot with it, I might look to something lighter. I like what I read about the Vortex Strikefire...having a little magnification would be a big plus for my old eyes. Of course if this were my "grab first" piece...I would spring for the battle proven stuff. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atxshooter 0 Posted September 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 ok i kinda narrowed it down to the vortex, the pk, or im also lookin into a millet dms....i like the vortex and the millet cause of the magnification and have read good reviews on both....i like the pk-as-v because of the black dot and it looks like it belongs on these rifles....hmmm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 I have a (Belo)Russian POSP 4x24 illuminated reticle scope that I put on during the hunting reason. It works very well for hunting deer in my area. The rest of the year, I use a PK-AS collimator. I chose this scope, because it has something called a "black dot", which makes it work without batteries in daylight. I hate to have to rely on batteries in my optics. Thats why I use it as well. Nothing like a battery fail to ruin your day. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThePants 1 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Things to avoid:1: Rails made by airsoft companies like UTG 2:Optics made for airsoft rifles (knock offs) 3: Avoid the LaRue IronDot until he ditches the looser Burris optic Avoid these three things and I won't laugh at you behind your back..... OK, let me preface this by saying that I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to learn. 1. What is wrong with the UTG rail? I understand it is an airsoft company, but I have recently installed one onto my Saiga and I'm pretty happy with it. It seems very solid and does not move. The reason that I purchased this is because the Ultimak is very expensive. So what are the pros to an Ultimak rail and the cons to the UTG? 2. OK, I'm with you here, the airsoft optics are a whole different ball game. I would never consider it. 3. So the Burris optic on the Larue is just more fragile and won't hold up? Glad to know, what about the Docter option for the Irondot? I would really like to know since I haven't purchased any optics as of yet. If I can find out why the Ultimak rail is worth the additional price I am sure I will have no problem finding a new home for my UTG. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 Things to avoid:1: Rails made by airsoft companies like UTG 2:Optics made for airsoft rifles (knock offs) 3: Avoid the LaRue IronDot until he ditches the looser Burris optic Avoid these three things and I won't laugh at you behind your back..... OK, let me preface this by saying that I'm not trying to be argumentative, I'm just trying to learn. 1. What is wrong with the UTG rail? I understand it is an airsoft company, but I have recently installed one onto my Saiga and I'm pretty happy with it. It seems very solid and does not move. The reason that I purchased this is because the Ultimak is very expensive. So what are the pros to an Ultimak rail and the cons to the UTG? 2. OK, I'm with you here, the airsoft optics are a whole different ball game. I would never consider it. 3. So the Burris optic on the Larue is just more fragile and won't hold up? Glad to know, what about the Docter option for the Irondot? I would really like to know since I haven't purchased any optics as of yet. If I can find out why the Ultimak rail is worth the additional price I am sure I will have no problem finding a new home for my UTG. good questions; 1: the utg does not allow co witness and does have a general high profile that is undesierable. Ultimak makes better quality stuff, just look into it. 2: no argument 3: I have only seen the non-doctor version in person, but the aluminum housing is not rear caged (the LaRue folks obviously saw this as an advantage for slipping the optic into the housing and for replacing the unit) which means if it falls into the wrong material on a bad angle the optic will be fucked. At least thats how it seems to me, a guy who has only seen the non-doc version in person... so take my advice or don't. I mean the platform seems like a good idea, but the burris shit-optic is the real problem. Ill probably buy one when they put a aimpoint on it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
animal2992 0 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) 1: the utg does not allow co witness and does have a general high profile that is undesierable. Ultimak makes better quality stuff, just look into it. I'm curious myself, I've heard mixed reviews for the UTG. So people say the can CW and some do not. Bigsal, on yours can you CW or is it obstructed by the rail. Also, as far as quality goes; can you offer more details. I.E. points of failure, fatiguing metal, etc. TIA! Dave Edited September 1, 2009 by animal2992 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
indie 0 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) I just won some A1optic green and red dot with 2x screw on magnification lens on gunbroker for 18 bucks shipped. For the price, and lifetime warranty its worth the risk. I'll report how I like it once I get it. Edited September 1, 2009 by indie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) 1: the utg does not allow co witness and does have a general high profile that is undesierable. Ultimak makes better quality stuff, just look into it. I'm curious myself, I've heard mixed reviews for the UTG. So people say the can CW and some do not. Bigsal, on yours can you CW or is it obstructed by the rail. Also, as far as quality goes; can you offer more details. I.E. points of failure, fatiguing metal, etc. TIA! Dave Oh I do not own a UTG, but you can clearly see it will not co witness with the irons. I had an ultimak gas tube rail (before I went with the PK-AS-V which uses the standard rail) and it is really the only option if your going to go front heavy. Edited September 1, 2009 by bigsal Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThePants 1 Posted September 1, 2009 Report Share Posted September 1, 2009 (edited) Actually the UTG is grooved down the center and co witnesses perfectly. I'm currently using my iron sights and it works just fine. Edited September 1, 2009 by ThePants Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sharker524 0 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Actually the UTG is grooved down the center and co witnesses perfectly. I'm currently using my iron sights and it works just fine. That's not what co-witness means. Co-witness means you can use the iron sights through the optic you have mounted. And you cannot, not with the UTG rails. I bought an ultimak gas tube mount and it cowitnesses perfectly with my itac defense red dot. Which is very durable and quite satisfactory, btw. $160 on cheaperthandirt. I machined down my handguard rails so I could use the lower trirail with my ultimak gas tube, so I still got some use out of it. Btw, cowitness also prevents you being SOL when the batteries die. That's kinda the whole point. I'd love to have one of those tritium/Fiber optic red dots that don't require batteries, but those things are pricey! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Actually the UTG is grooved down the center and co witnesses perfectly. I'm currently using my iron sights and it works just fine. That's not what co-witness means. Co-witness means you can use the iron sights through the optic you have mounted. And you cannot, not with the UTG rails. I bought an ultimak gas tube mount and it cowitnesses perfectly with my itac defense red dot. Which is very durable and quite satisfactory, btw. $160 on cheaperthandirt. I machined down my handguard rails so I could use the lower trirail with my ultimak gas tube, so I still got some use out of it. Btw, cowitness also prevents you being SOL when the batteries die. That's kinda the whole point. I'd love to have one of those tritium/Fiber optic red dots that don't require batteries, but those things are pricey! If you use the PK-AS you don't have that problem.... Doesn't matter if the batteries die due to he residual black dot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigsal 757 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Actually the UTG is grooved down the center and co witnesses perfectly. I'm currently using my iron sights and it works just fine. Read Sharker524's post. You have mistaken the definition of "co-witness" with that of "using iron sights". Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThePants 1 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Actually the UTG is grooved down the center and co witnesses perfectly. I'm currently using my iron sights and it works just fine. That's not what co-witness means. Co-witness means you can use the iron sights through the optic you have mounted. And you cannot, not with the UTG rails. I bought an ultimak gas tube mount and it cowitnesses perfectly with my itac defense red dot. Which is very durable and quite satisfactory, btw. $160 on cheaperthandirt. I machined down my handguard rails so I could use the lower trirail with my ultimak gas tube, so I still got some use out of it. Btw, cowitness also prevents you being SOL when the batteries die. That's kinda the whole point. I'd love to have one of those tritium/Fiber optic red dots that don't require batteries, but those things are pricey! Wouldn't co-witness be situational then? I know anything I have mounted on the rail wouldn't co-witness, but in that case I'd just take it off. (yeah this isn't practical in a combat situation, but if I'm ever in armed combat it will likely be indoors with my 12 gauge or from my car or bed with my .45) The way the Irondot is made it should work exactly like an iron site when the power is down, from what I gather and thus would be able to co witness if the iron sites work. Again, not arguing, I want to learn and if this assumption is wrong please tell me. Would the slight pieces of metal that slightly get in the way on either side of the Irondot interfere with the targeting for some reason? Now I know I'm out of luck if I drop my gun right on top of a Larue Irondot, but I also generally make it a point not to drop my guns. atxshooter: Sorry if I sort of hijacked your thread. From what I know about Eotech and the knockoffs a lot of the knockoffs might not adjust for light too well, and will fail after a bit of use. I've never heard anyone complain about their Eotech. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moe Zambeak 53 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 I have a (Belo)Russian POSP 4x24 illuminated reticle scope that I put on during the hunting reason. It works very well for hunting deer in my area. The rest of the year, I use a PK-AS collimator. I chose this scope, because it has something called a "black dot", which makes it work without batteries in daylight. I hate to have to rely on batteries in my optics. Thats why I use it as well. Nothing like a battery fail to ruin your day. I found this scope for $119 online. That seems pretty darn cheap. I never heard of the retailer before. What is an average price on this scope? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bernerz 11 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 I have heard good things about Millet. I have a Bushnell red dot that goes either red or green, however, as mentioned before, batteries can fail, especially if you accidentally left the friggen thing on like I did. Leupold makes the Prismatic which has a reticle etched on the glass and also provides a red dot. The problem with the Leupold is the price. I haven't seen one less than around $400.00. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sharker524 0 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 Wouldn't co-witness be situational then? I know anything I have mounted on the rail wouldn't co-witness, but in that case I'd just take it off. (yeah this isn't practical in a combat situation, but if I'm ever in armed combat it will likely be indoors with my 12 gauge or from my car or bed with my .45) The way the Irondot is made it should work exactly like an iron site when the power is down, from what I gather and thus would be able to co witness if the iron sites work. Again, not arguing, I want to learn and if this assumption is wrong please tell me. Would the slight pieces of metal that slightly get in the way on either side of the Irondot interfere with the targeting for some reason? Now I know I'm out of luck if I drop my gun right on top of a Larue Irondot, but I also generally make it a point not to drop my guns. It either cowitnesses with a mounted optic or it does not cowitness. I'm not completely sure what you're asking, lol. The whole point is for combat situations where you cannot stop and remove a failed optic to continue shooting accurately. The LaRue Irondot is made with a backup rear sight. So yes, it does cowitness. I've never used it, so I don't know anything about the durability. I replaced my rear sight leaf with a click-adjustable Mojo peep sight, for a bit better long-range accuracy. I gave thought to the irondot, but I just didn't want to go back to the old style iron sights, when that is what I use for longer ranges. I have my red dot sighted in at 25yds/300yds(but its 4MOA), and iron sights the same. It's much easier to aim with the peep sight at longer ranges than with the 4MOA dot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
stix213 3 Posted September 2, 2009 Report Share Posted September 2, 2009 (edited) I really don't understand some people's obsession with having iron sight co-witness with their optics. If your optic fails for any reason, it is unrealistic to assume you will still be able to look through it to continue using your iron sight. I personally am using a mount with a quick release lever with my reflex sight (Mueller Quick Shot reflex sight comes recommended by me by the way, 3 MOA at smallest setting), which always keeps zero when reattached to the rifle. So in a situation where an optic fails I don't have to continue struggling to see through the freaking broken optic for my supposedly superior co-witness setup, where instead I just flip a lever and toss the broken optic immediately. Light refraction from cracked and crooked glass in your optic will make your sight appear in a different location relative to when your optic was functional, making your co-witness setup ending up completely throwing off your aim with a broken optic. Bad idea IMO if you think this will work to use your irons as a backup like this. Good luck with that though. I'd really like to see a rifle configured with co-witness, then have someone mess up the glass so a lens is crooked and see how good you see those irons after that and if they appear lined up still with POI when fired. I'm pretty sure you will be disappointed. Edited September 2, 2009 by stix213 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
555JM 10 Posted September 3, 2009 Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 I agree, stix. It seems that insisting on co-witness limits the choices. If the exchange is at ranges where sighted shots are taken and sights are necessary, then there should be time to remove a broken optic on a quick release mount....just like there would be time to change magazines if one ran dry. If the ranges are so short and the action so fast that there is not time, then probably the sights aren't needed or wouldn't be used anyway. The best backup option in that case might be a laser sight. In a nutshell: If you've got the time to take sighted shots, then you've got the time to remove a quick release optic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
atxshooter 0 Posted September 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted September 3, 2009 thanks for all the input and info.....i took a trip to austin today and had a chance to visit with my unce who is retired military and told me to hold off on my purchase cause he is gonna try to hook me up with a military issue eotech im onna give him a month i he doesnt come through its either the millet or the pk Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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