Full Auto comparison: S-12 & AA-12

[willhutcherson 7]

SAIGA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_zIrgtv1J0

AA-12

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhstuvzMiB0&feature=related

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

There IS no comparison. Sell the AA12 to the nearest scrap metal dealer...

 

WS

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

There's no comparison. The AA's cyclic rate doesn't even come close to the Saiga's.

[mgconnor13 206]

AA-12 looks like a wanna be 12 gauge M16.

SAIGAS ARE JUST FRIGGIN SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh and they're legal to own with out 3 tons of paperwork.

 

pretty sure i can shoot my semi auto saiga 12 faster then the AA-12.

[Crusader 64]

I like the Saiga 12 better than the AA-12.

[kdbutler 563]

There's no comparison. The AA's cyclic rate doesn't even come close to the Saiga's.

 

Add to that what looks like potential for some really sloppy-assed mag changes on the AA-12.

 

S-12 FTW!

[diamondback 56]

I'm gonna seem a heretic here, but I'd take both. The AA12, preferably in a retro-Atchisson config, to go with the other irons of those who've had an influence on me, the Saiga for 'Serious Social Situations'...

[sudaevpps43 31]

In fairness to the AA-12, its low cyclic rate was a deliberate design choice made by Atchison (the designer) to make sure the AA-12 was easily controllable during full auto fire. To further help with controllability during full auto fire the AA-12 also has a very long run for its bolt carrier which makes sure the bolt carrier never hits the back of the receiver during cycling (which would otherwise impart an additional recoil force to the shooter). Also unlike the Saiga 12 the AA-12 fires from an open bolt (as can be seen in the video), so that the bolt is moving forward and hits the front of the receiver just as the round is fired. Because of this the backward moving recoil force of the fired round must first overcome the forward moving momentum of the bolt group, which also helps with controllability during full-auto fire.

 

Keep in mind that when compared to a cartridge that was specifically designed for controllable full-auto fire, like say the 7.62x39mm rifle round which typically has about 7 ft-lbs of recoil energy, a 12 gauge round (which can vary from low base 2-3/4" birdshot to high-base 3" magnum buckshot or slugs) will have anywhere from about 17 to over 50 ft-lbs of recoil energy (2.5 to nearly 8 times the recoil), so maintaining controllability in full auto fire with a 12 gauge across the full range of 12 gauge ammo types is no mean feat. In the full auto Saiga 12 video Mike makes keeping that full-auto Saiga 12 under control look easy because he has no doubt had a lot of practice firing it full-auto. You can see though that while he is firing 2-3/4" low base birdshot that he still has to lean into it a bit to keep the the Saiga 12 steady, while in the AA-12 video the shooters don't look like they are trying to lean into it or counteract the recoil in any way at all. I bet that if a full auto Saiga 12 and AA-12 were compared when firing high base 2-3/4" or 3" magnum buckshot, the difference would be even more noticeable. The bottom line is that a AA-12 will be easier to control on full auto fire than a Saiga 12, particularly when heavier recoiling 12 gauge ammo is being used.

 

Of course it is sort of an apples to oranges comparison since the Saiga 12 as originally designed by Izhmash is a self-loading shotgun, not a machine shotgun as the AA-12 was designed from the ground up to be. Moreover for the typical individual it's all academic anyway, since most of us will never get a chance to possess or fire any machine shotgun and are restricted to semi-automatic shotguns only, in which case the Saiga 12, which is lighter, simpler, more reliable, and much less expensive, is clearly the better choice.

Edited January 5, 2010 by Frogfoot

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

AA-12 looks like a wanna be 12 gauge M16.

SAIGAS ARE JUST FRIGGIN SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! oh and they're legal to own with out 3 tons of paperwork.

 

pretty sure i can shoot my semi auto saiga 12 faster then the AA-12.

 

As a matter of fact you can. And, with the S12's tendency to stay right where it's aimed, you can maintain your target area while you are doing so. Below is a link to a video a buddy and I made last summer while testing a couple of new S12 tactical builds. Bear in mind that we're basically just screwing around.

 

 

As for the 3" magnum stuff, I see no need for it in a weapon that slings lead downrange at the speed of the S12, in semi auto or full auto trim.

 

The Russians saw no need to produce a fully auto S12 because it is literally "overkill". I've done the math many times - at a semi auto cyclic rate of five rounds per second, the S12 is capable of putting 45 each 8.4mm 00' buck projectiles downrange. That is equivalent to a cyclic rate of 2700 rounds per minute for a single projectile firearm, allowing the S12 to put nearly as much lead downrange (for short intervals) as a Dylan Minigun. If you are using low recoil 2 3/4" 9 pellet 00' shells, there is absolutely no reason to go with more powerful ammo.

 

Double that output with a fully auto S12, and you have a weapon that is capable of mind numbing target devastation

 

The AA 12 is an impressive weapon, but IMO the Kalashnikov design is far superior.

 

WS

Edited January 4, 2010 by WaffenSchmied

[Big Boss 21]

Both are excellent designs, this is a pissing match :-P

[madmax4x4 68]

the AA-12 was a lot less recoil and is easier to keep on target with the lower RPM. The full auto saiga runs fast and blows so much smoke in your face you cant see the sights If I had to pick I would say saiga for fun, dirty warfare, and for spare parts available to use from semi gun. AA-12 for clean combat and resale. So hell if I know yea pissing contest

 

And everyone should have had used both before picking one

 

Also full auto builds for the saiga are going to a little different between builders.

Edited January 4, 2010 by madmax4x4

[madmax4x4 68]

add the USAS-12 full auto to the mix

 

USAS-12 looks like a wanna be 12 gauge M16 also. In full autos a higher RPM rate is not always better, that why I just got a lage slowfire upper

Edited January 4, 2010 by madmax4x4

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

add the USAS-12 full auto to the mix

 

USAS-12 looks like a wanna be 12 gauge M16 also. In full autos a higher RPM rate is not always better, that why I just got a lage slowfire upper

 

USAS 12 shares most of its DNA with the AA 12. IMO There's really not enough difference between them to warrant the USAS 12 being mentioned here as something truly different, or other than the AA 12. They are in fact close siblings if not fraternal twins.

 

The AA 12 started out as a 12 gauge M16 -- more or less -- but (along with its sibling the USAS 12) now uses a Kalashnikov style gas piston system. http://world.guns.ru/shotgun/sh16-e.htm The USAS 12's 20 round drum also has a very familiar look http://practical-defense.com/products/usas-12-drum-20-round.html.

Edited January 4, 2010 by WaffenSchmied

[Bvamp 604]

well the full auto saiga 12's Tom Cole makes, I can tell ya, are quite easy to control with light birdshot loads, as is being shown in both videos in both guns.

 

Im the only one that willingly loads Tom's 12's with 3" shells and fires it, and I can still keep those cannon rounds going onto target during mag dumps, quite easily, even with the snot getting knocked out of me.

 

 

The AA12 runs about 400 rpm, and as is said above was designed that way intentionally so any little squirt could control it with toy loads. Look at the segments in the different AA12 videos where they run slugs down it. it still jumps around a little bit.

 

 

The FA S-12's Tom makes run at about 520 RPM, but if someone for some reason WANTED to turn the rate down, there are things called rate reducers out there that can be installed, and burst trigger groups as well. oh yeh, Tom's typical configuration he prefers to use is oh....what, a third of the size and weight of the other FA shotguns out there?

 

 

Im not sure why one would want to turn down the cyclic rate of any machine gun, personally. Its all about lead on target. If you cant control the gun, leave it for someone who can and use something else. also consider an employment change, because you probably are in the wrong line of work.

 

Why one would want a full auto shotgun the size of your leg is beyond me. You make some target and take some time to swing going through someone's front door to raid the place. the shotgun is a CWB weapon, not something deployed 300 meters out.

 

and lets not even get into what happens when there is a failure, and which is the quickest to clear or fix......you AR guys LOVE when you have a failure or jam, dont ya? I know you like taking the whole friggin gun apart to clear the weapon (that is if slamming the butt on the ground dont work) Im sure the AA12 will have the same problem if it does jam....the S12 you just rack the bolt back nice and simple, and dump the jam out and keep on truckin.....

 

Then again, we are talking work tools here, not toys for joe blow......all three FA's in this thread kill just fine, im sure, but for the real work tool, Ill take "the beast" any day of the year without even an afterthought......

[TR Young 175]

Besides the S12 being superior in ease of operation, the AA12 is just plain, old, butt ugly....

[opto_isolator 3]

god I wish I could own one!

[Paulyski 2,227]

You don't notice recoil when you're fighting for your life.

 

You do notice that huge pile of a million parts to break when you're humping it around.

 

I will take the S-12 for the $$ & the rest. (unless it was given to me I I planned on selling it for an S-17 & a shitload of ammo money.)

[jmacken37 4]

I was a little supprised when the owner of Viking Tactics who fought in some of the nastiest places for our country's most elite force told me he never used full auto when putting down the bad guys. Sure FA is used, but not really with shoulder mounted assault rifles. That being said, FA is fun!

 

Jake

[AtlSaiga 25]

ya know what I hate about the aa12 - those friggin sights! they look like a couple of tower cranes sticking out of the top of the gun. why are they like that? seems like there would be no way to mount optics. doesn't that make it an epic failure? I assume it has to do with the charging handle that protrudes from the top. that too seems like a failure. should't that handle be coming out of the left side?

[psl sniper 963]

no one mentioned the weight difference. a fully loaded saiga with a 20 rnd drum is about 5-6 lbs lighter than a

aa 12 with 20 rnd drum. just my 2 cents.

Edited September 8, 2010 by psl sniper

[jbw00d28 4]

no one mentioned the weight difference. a fully loaded saiga with a 20 rnd drum is about 5-6 lbs lighter than a

aa 12 with 20 rnd drum. just my 2 cents.

 

 

Action hero Terry Cruze handles the weight of the aa12 with ease in the expendables...That being said, having handled both the AA12 and the Saiga, I have to say that I prefer the SA Saiga 12 to the FA AA12 any and every day of the week. Just personal preference.

[cvhanh20 1,052]

Although there are some really cool feature with AA12, such as the mag support, with slow motion cameras we all have seen how the plastic mags bounce around while firing. But the support looks awkward and I think it would be hard to load very fast. I like how fast the weapon can be disassembled, but I don't like some of those really long internal parts, wow, what where they thinking! The slower rate of fire has both a draw back and an advantage, a little more control, although we see Mike controlling the Saiga 12 with one hand so that might be a hard argument of course with heavier loads this would really start to come into play! Over all the AA12 is a fine weapon, a little over done, over priced, and a little over the top on bragging rights. We're American's, lets face it, we love to fix shit up. Saigas are hit and miss coming out of the box, but for the price and now the accessory platform they have for them, thanks to myself and many other dedicated manufactures. Not one Saiga is the same IMO, and I believe thats been a big part of their success, well that and price. the AA12, you get what you get, they all look the same! As stated here in so many ways, SAIGA 12 rocks if your willing to put the work into them!!!!!

[SaigaKen 338]

I would love all the special ammo that is used in the AA12 for my S12......

 

It puts a shotgun shell grenade round through a window at 200 yards and take out anything living in a 3meter radius......

[psl sniper 963]

I would love all the special ammo that is used in the AA12 for my S12......

 

It puts a shotgun shell grenade round through a window at 200 yards and take out anything living in a 3meter radius......

yeah that would be quite fun. the round is called a frag 12. it doesnt arm until its 3 meters from the gun. good to know if youre cranking full auto.

[psl sniper 963]

okay looked it up again the AA 12 empty weights 11.46 lbs. with a drum it weights 16 lbs.

 

now the saiga. empty the SAIGA 12 weights 7 lbs 15 oz. could not find data of weight with a drum. so as it stands the saiga is about 4 lbs lighter than the AA 12.