WHY a Saiga (VS Other AK platforms)

[VladTepes 160]

I love my Saiga... no question about it.. and i get pretty fair groups with it... but i recently was discussing how happy i was with my Saiga on another forum and got a little grief back.. the poster stated he felt the Chinese AK platform was superior.. i have handled and fired a couple other AK variants.. and again feel like the Saiga was superior to the ones i have been in contact with.. but can you give me some feedback on why a Saiga over the countless other AK platforms out there..

besides personal experience any factual info would be great..

also any range reports groupings at 50/100yrds...

 

to be fair we are comparing a quality restored Saiga NOT the BS way they import it.. lol

 

thanks in advance..

[kresk 10,063]

Although the Chinese receiver is a bit thicker, how can you argue that there's anything better than A real Russian AK homegrown in the factory that MK himself cranked the first rifles out of. It IS the real thing.

[VladTepes 160]

Although the Chinese receiver is a bit thicker, how can you argue that there's anything better than A real Russian AK homegrown in the factory that MK himself cranked the first rifles out of. It IS the real thing.

 

 

i PERSONALLY totally agree.. and a thicker receiver would matter IF the standard Saiga receiver was somehow lacking which it obviously is not.. i think i could park a car on mine for a day or two and it would still fire fine.. to me a thicker receiver is just added weight which i do NOT want..

 

and i TOTALLY agree with your last statement..

 

just fishing to see if there are any actual qualities of the Saiga that make it "better"

[DavidQ 170]

Well I like the fact that it is built, not bought or pieced together like legos.

[imarangemaster 315]

Besides being true "Russian" AKs made in MK factory, ACCURACY is a major reason. Izhmash use hammer forged barrels and are 2 MOA or less accurate. As far as I know, they are the only foreign AK manufacturer that use hammer forged barrels. Domestic made Green Mountain barreled AKs (like Century Yugo builds) do match that, but are not Russian.

[Lone Star Arms 2,047]

I tear down Saiga sporters on a regular basis, and rebuild them the way MK intended them to be. These guns are tough! The consistency, and quality of the materials is second to none.

 

My dad has a couple of Chinese AK's and while they do the job, where the quality of materials used and the fit and finish (excl. paint) there is no comparison to the Russian guns. The Chinese AK's he has are good, but the Saiga is a great AK.

 

I hope this helps answer your question.

 

WS

[funshootin1 10]

He likes the chineese aks cause thats what he has, dont think too deep into this man, your saiga is an ass kicker, Ive had alot of diffrent ak type rifles and shot many more, I never really spent too much time going for accuracy though as the ammo is usually bulk stuff and the gun design in general doesnt lend itself to stellar performance at the range. They are real world guns designed to be used and abused by folks with limited training and under the worst conditions imaginable and work every time, mass production and cost per unit, simplicity and ruggedness of the gun and the ability to get lead on or around the target is the way of the ak. rivets and stampings, parts commanality and compatibility and machining that looks like some kid with a dremel tool went bananas on the boltwork dont make a tackdriver.., they are crude tools that perform better than alot of guns that are far superior on paper, that being said, some arent too bad and Ive seen some ak types do 3 and 4 inch groups at a 100yds (one of my yugos is like that and thats with irons). IMO keeping a mag full on a paper plate at 100 is just fine. Your saiga has lots going for it, you trigger is probably decent (if not it can be improved and that will help immensly), the stock is solid and give a good cheek weld, and you got a dot sight which takes alot of variable out of the equasion. I like it, its all an ak should be. all business without too much foo foo and bling hangin off it. If your trying to eek a little more out of it try some diffrent ammo. Buy a little bit of diffrent brands, bullet types, ect.(as much diffrent kinds as you can get your hands on) and hit the range. take your time and bring your cleaning kit, be scientific about it, use diffrent targets for each, write down which group is from which and see what ammo it shoots the best, then go an get as much as you can get. Im guessing youll find one particular type thatll group real tight. (remember this stuff is mass produced, some times the same ammo with a diffrent lot number will shoot more consistent) have fun!

[Rockina 60]

Opinions are like assholes, everyone has at least one.

[russiangunrunner 10]

well... like previously stated, it's a russian ak.... nothing beats that, but having said that, the ak's from other countries are just as good.... Except the chinese ones, they went with their own specs, dunno why. a commie era 1970's ak from bulgaria, poland, hungary, romania will always satisfy. and don't believe the BS about other countries barrels being made differently or any of that. sure, the quality control at some plants may have suffered some, like the maadi, or recent romanian and so forth, but honestly, yes, saiga's are great and i'd say one of the better rifles, but there's nothing wrong with a mil-spec al parts kits....

 

having said that, wasr10's ARE NOT worth the 350-450 people ask for them, nor are the chinese rifles worth the 800-1200.... but i'd still not hesitate to use any ak....

 

just dail the sights in and fix whatever may be wrong and you're good to go.

 

parts kit guns ARE nice guns, and yes a saiga conversion is a better rifle if converted right, so basically, i'd take a parts kit romy from 1979 back when the parts kits were 89.99 plus parts to build it over a fully converted saiga....why? because a mil-spec akm is a better deal than a saiga conversion at $550-750. or worse yet, a crapco conversion. ich.

 

don't worry, i own saiga's in 5.56 5.45 and 7.62 and love 'em

 

i also own an ak from most all countries and love them too, there's no reason to snob your nose at a quality bulgy ak74 that cost 350 bucks.... or to pretend that a russian made saiga is total crap either. hell, i love the fact that the russian's butchered the ak platform.... we get to buy them now.....

[VladTepes 160]

He likes the chineese aks cause thats what he has, dont think too deep into this man, your saiga is an ass kicker, Ive had alot of diffrent ak type rifles and shot many more, I never really spent too much time going for accuracy though as the ammo is usually bulk stuff and the gun design in general doesnt lend itself to stellar performance at the range. They are real world guns designed to be used and abused by folks with limited training and under the worst conditions imaginable and work every time, mass production and cost per unit, simplicity and ruggedness of the gun and the ability to get lead on or around the target is the way of the ak. rivets and stampings, parts commanality and compatibility and machining that looks like some kid with a dremel tool went bananas on the boltwork dont make a tackdriver.., they are crude tools that perform better than alot of guns that are far superior on paper, that being said, some arent too bad and Ive seen some ak types do 3 and 4 inch groups at a 100yds (one of my yugos is like that and thats with irons). IMO keeping a mag full on a paper plate at 100 is just fine. Your saiga has lots going for it, you trigger is probably decent (if not it can be improved and that will help immensly), the stock is solid and give a good cheek weld, and you got a dot sight which takes alot of variable out of the equasion. I like it, its all an ak should be. all business without too much foo foo and bling hangin off it. If your trying to eek a little more out of it try some diffrent ammo. Buy a little bit of diffrent brands, bullet types, ect.(as much diffrent kinds as you can get your hands on) and hit the range. take your time and bring your cleaning kit, be scientific about it, use diffrent targets for each, write down which group is from which and see what ammo it shoots the best, then go an get as much as you can get. Im guessing youll find one particular type thatll group real tight. (remember this stuff is mass produced, some times the same ammo with a diffrent lot number will shoot more consistent) have fun!

 

im content with mine.. and the FCG in my rifle is fine it is the Tapco FCG modified by Dinzag.. its nice and smooth..

 

my question was not so much about ME as im totally happy with mine.. it was more just a broad comparison of the different AK platforms..

 

thanks for the responses..

[nalioth 405]

Those China-boys love their Chinese AKs because they most likely (mistakenly) believe that "rare" = "better".

 

They have forgotten (if they're even old enough) that the Chinese guns were considered the "WASRs of their day". . .

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

The only Chinese AK I'd like to own is a Polytech "Legend" with a spike bayonet, (mostly because of that spike bayo ).... but I'd never pay anywhere near what you typically see them sold for nowadays.

Edited January 23, 2010 by post-apocalyptic

[imarangemaster 315]

That's true, Nalioth. I had a Poly Tech TYPE 56 underfoflder bayonet, and it was a great weapon. It was way better than the Norincos and Maadis that were common in the late 80s. A Saiga, and even my Yugo M70AB2 are much better than the Polytech. Legend Polytechs are nice, but no better than an Arsenal milled.

[bigsal 757]

Besides being true "Russian" AKs made in MK factory, ACCURACY is a major reason. Izhmash use hammer forged barrels and are 2 MOA or less accurate. As far as I know, they are the only foreign AK manufacturer that use hammer forged barrels. Domestic made Green Mountain barreled AKs (like Century Yugo builds) do match that, but are not Russian.

 

 

Ive yet to see pictures of green mountain's facilities, but I doubt they are as sophisticated as that of the Russians. See here:

 

 

(Fast forward to minute 1:10 of the video to see the Izhmash Robot Arm in action!)

 

 

[into_the_knight 22]

Here is an old post by SOPMOD:

 

Mandrel Formed Chromed Barrel(concentric,lasts longer)

Sheetmetal Receiver(lighter and proven more reliable by AK47/AKM comparison testing)

Hardened Rivets

Forged gas block

High temperature Furniture

 

 

I guess a late model Russian AK100 series would be my ticket and the next best thing would be a converted Saiga?

 

I like a few different AKs but the weight of the milled turns me off and breaking down receiver stubs on parts kits has shown me that the Saiga has the toughest rivets of any stamped AK ever made.I can knock the rivets off of Bulgarian,Romanian,Hungarian with a cold chisel but I'll be a monkeys uncle if it doesn't take a cutoff wheel or milling machine to get those damned Saiga rivets free!

[Ermac 8]

I assume you guys were talking about me with my Chinese AK's. Most of the reasons people give me why the Russian ones are better is simply because it's Russian and that's it. I suppose the thicker reciever of a Chinese rifle dosen't really have an advantage in semi automatic, but for sustained fire it might be better for the same reason RPK's have thicker reciever.

 

 

That's true, Nalioth. I had a Poly Tech TYPE 56 underfoflder bayonet, and it was a great weapon. It was way better than the Norincos and Maadis that were common in the late 80s. A Saiga, and even my Yugo M70AB2 are much better than the Polytech. Legend Polytechs are nice, but no better than an Arsenal milled.

I don't know if you're really a good judge of quality. I had a Yugo M70 and the thing was no where near as good as the Polytech in quality and even the reliability.

[nalioth 405]

That's true, Nalioth. I had a Poly Tech TYPE 56 underfoflder bayonet, and it was a great weapon. It was way better than the Norincos and Maadis that were common in the late 80s. A Saiga, and even my Yugo M70AB2 are much better than the Polytech. Legend Polytechs are nice, but no better than an Arsenal milled.

I don't know if you're really a good judge of quality. I had a Yugo M70 and the thing was no where near as good as the Polytech in quality and even the reliability.

You aren't possibly comparing a Century monkey-work kit gun to a factory built AK, are you?

[havok 21]

I think the real question should be, Why buy any AK that was not made in Russia?

If the AK is not stamped Made in Russia, it's just a knockoff...

For years I was never impressed with KO AK's/sks my friends owned or I have seen at shows and store's because they were not the real deal from Russia.

[Willie D 2]

Saigas are the best buy for the money. You aren't buying a parts gun.

 

 

But here's the dirty secret: all AKs pretty much run the same. Some stamped Romys will outshoot milled Bulgarians. Some Saigas are better shooters than Veprs, some are not. Unless you want to start talking about Galils or Valmets there is really no hard and fast performance scale.

[Ermac 8]

That's true, Nalioth. I had a Poly Tech TYPE 56 underfoflder bayonet, and it was a great weapon. It was way better than the Norincos and Maadis that were common in the late 80s. A Saiga, and even my Yugo M70AB2 are much better than the Polytech. Legend Polytechs are nice, but no better than an Arsenal milled.

I don't know if you're really a good judge of quality. I had a Yugo M70 and the thing was no where near as good as the Polytech in quality and even the reliability.

You aren't possibly comparing a Century monkey-work kit gun to a factory built AK, are you?

I was. I assume he was talking about a Century arms one as how many people do you know have a mitchell arms imported Zastava AK?

 

 

 

I think the real question should be, Why buy any AK that was not made in Russia?

If the AK is not stamped Made in Russia, it's just a knockoff...

For years I was never impressed with KO AK's/sks my friends owned or I have seen at shows and store's because they were not the real deal from Russia.

I have two Russian SKS's and two Chinese SKS's and they and I would say the Chinese is only slightly rougher or equal to the Russian one in quality. I suppose you think all other AR15 brands are bad because they aren't a Colt. I guess you could argue that the Russians would be better because they are constantly being updated where the Chinese,Bulgarian, or Romanian ones never really changed.

Edited January 24, 2010 by Ermac

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Because AKs should be made by people that play chess and drink lots of vodka. No one knows why ...

[shades_of_grey 1,092]

I assume you guys were talking about me with my Chinese AK's...

 

Well, your assumption is a bad one. DamagedWorld clearly states in his first post that: "i recently was discussing how happy i was with my Saiga on another forum and got a little grief back.. the poster stated he felt the Chinese AK platform was superior.."

 

Don't be so paranoid.

 

Chinese AKs are fine rifles and some of the best around. But... you shouldn't take it personally when people on this forum express their preference for Russian rifles over Chinese ones. I mean, this is a Saiga forum, if you hadn't noticed.

[Dirt Diver 0]

This one's very simple. Ask anyone concerned three questions:

 

1. Who invented the AK

2. Where is the inventor now and where does he work

3. Where are Saiga's made

 

Answers:

 

1. MK

2. Izhmash factory

3. Izhmash factory

 

Enough said...

Edited January 26, 2010 by Dirt Diver

[Reverendfranz 160]

And GM makes nice barrels, but they are not chrome lined.

[jimdigriz 580]

Because AKs should be made by people that play chess and drink lots of vodka. No one knows why ...

 

[bigsal 757]

 

I have two Russian SKS's and two Chinese SKS's and they and I would say the Chinese is only slightly rougher or equal to the Russian one in quality. I suppose you think all other AR15 brands are bad because they aren't a Colt. I guess you could argue that the Russians would be better because they are constantly being updated where the Chinese,Bulgarian, or Romanian ones never really changed.

 

Odd. In terms of "quality", the Chinese SKS should have no differences with the Soviet model. The type 56 was after all built with Russian tooling under the supervision of Russian advisors. The Chinese SKS rifles were continuously "updated" to a greater degree than the Russian production models. In fact, the newer Chinese commercial rifles were actually built on upgraded machinery, the design of which was purchased from.... guess where..... Russia! Remember the Russians stopped production of the SKS far before the Chinese, and they had to unload their extra tooling and plans for future platform updates somewhere.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 27, 2010 by bigsal

[Reverendfranz 160]

I have two Russian SKS's and two Chinese SKS's and they and I would say the Chinese is only slightly rougher or equal to the Russian one in quality. I suppose you think all other AR15 brands are bad because they aren't a Colt. I guess you could argue that the Russians would be better because they are constantly being updated where the Chinese,Bulgarian, or Romanian ones never really changed.

 

Odd. In terms of "quality", the Chinese SKS should have no differences with the Soviet model. The type 56 was after all built with Russian tooling under the supervision of Russian advisors. The Chinese SKS rifles were continuously "updated" to a greater degree than the Russian production models. In fact, the newer Chinese commercial rifles were actually built on upgraded machinery, the design of which was purchased from.... guess where..... Russia! Remember the Russians stopped production of the SKS far before the Chinese, and they had to unload their extra tooling and plans for future platform updates somewhere.

 

 

 

"Should" and "do" seem to be two different things. There are considerable differences between the Soviet and Chinese models of sks, though, oddly enough, not in terms of design, but exclusively in terms of quality. The Russian rifles are all machined parts, cut and finished to a fairly high standard. The Chinese is a transition to stamped and cast parts, utilizing less machined parts, including stamped receivers with unmilled bolts. Yes, the Chinese continually revised the manufacturing process, but only in terms of producing a cheaper mousetrap, not a better one. So, no. Quality is not determined by rate of production line changes, its determined by quality. The russian rifles have the highest quality barrels on an AK today. They have quality parts. Despite all the complaints here of vodka specials, it seems to me they have a higher rate of QC on issues like canted sight blocks, and other than the paint job, (and the trigger being installed in the wrong spot) are very well done rifles.

Edited January 27, 2010 by ReverendFranz

[Ermac 8]

I have two Russian SKS's and two Chinese SKS's and they and I would say the Chinese is only slightly rougher or equal to the Russian one in quality. I suppose you think all other AR15 brands are bad because they aren't a Colt. I guess you could argue that the Russians would be better because they are constantly being updated where the Chinese,Bulgarian, or Romanian ones never really changed.

 

Odd. In terms of "quality", the Chinese SKS should have no differences with the Soviet model. The type 56 was after all built with Russian tooling under the supervision of Russian advisors. The Chinese SKS rifles were continuously "updated" to a greater degree than the Russian production models. In fact, the newer Chinese commercial rifles were actually built on upgraded machinery, the design of which was purchased from.... guess where..... Russia! Remember the Russians stopped production of the SKS far before the Chinese, and they had to unload their extra tooling and plans for future platform updates somewhere.

 

 

 

"Should" and "do" seem to be two different things. There are considerable differences between the Soviet and Chinese models of sks, though, oddly enough, not in terms of design, but exclusively in terms of quality. The Russian rifles are all machined parts, cut and finished to a fairly high standard. The Chinese is a transition to stamped and cast parts, utilizing less machined parts, including stamped receivers with unmilled bolts. Yes, the Chinese continually revised the manufacturing process, but only in terms of producing a cheaper mousetrap, not a better one. So, no. Quality is not determined by rate of production line changes, its determined by quality. The russian rifles have the highest quality barrels on an AK today. They have quality parts. Despite all the complaints here of vodka specials, it seems to me they have a higher rate of QC on issues like canted sight blocks, and other than the paint job, (and the trigger being installed in the wrong spot) are very well done rifles.

There are hardly any stamped Chinese SKS's out there. They weren't very successful if I recall. None of your claims about the Chinese models having cast parts and stamped parts are verifiable other then the stamped trigger guard. That dosen't make it a, "cheaper mouse trap" I hope.

[bigsal 757]

I have two Russian SKS's and two Chinese SKS's and they and I would say the Chinese is only slightly rougher or equal to the Russian one in quality. I suppose you think all other AR15 brands are bad because they aren't a Colt. I guess you could argue that the Russians would be better because they are constantly being updated where the Chinese,Bulgarian, or Romanian ones never really changed.

 

Odd. In terms of "quality", the Chinese SKS should have no differences with the Soviet model. The type 56 was after all built with Russian tooling under the supervision of Russian advisors. The Chinese SKS rifles were continuously "updated" to a greater degree than the Russian production models. In fact, the newer Chinese commercial rifles were actually built on upgraded machinery, the design of which was purchased from.... guess where..... Russia! Remember the Russians stopped production of the SKS far before the Chinese, and they had to unload their extra tooling and plans for future platform updates somewhere.

 

 

 

"Should" and "do" seem to be two different things. There are considerable differences between the Soviet and Chinese models of sks, though, oddly enough, not in terms of design, but exclusively in terms of quality. The Russian rifles are all machined parts, cut and finished to a fairly high standard. The Chinese is a transition to stamped and cast parts, utilizing less machined parts, including stamped receivers with unmilled bolts. Yes, the Chinese continually revised the manufacturing process, but only in terms of producing a cheaper mousetrap, not a better one. So, no. Quality is not determined by rate of production line changes, its determined by quality. The russian rifles have the highest quality barrels on an AK today. They have quality parts. Despite all the complaints here of vodka specials, it seems to me they have a higher rate of QC on issues like canted sight blocks, and other than the paint job, (and the trigger being installed in the wrong spot) are very well done rifles.

 

Incorrect. The Chinese type 56 was an exact clone save the spike bayonet put in late products runs. The number of machined parts is identical on this model to the late Russian units. Not sure where you get your information from Rev, but I suspect you just make shit up and hope people believe you. The Chinese have also adopted newer designs to accommodate AK mags, shorter barrels, improved stocks etc. In other words they are not just building cheaper products for cheap productions sake. Further, most sks models built in China are milled not stamped.

 

 

Now I do agree that the Russians have the highest quality barrel production. And that the Russians build the best AK. Thats a no brainer. But in terms of the SKS, the Chinese are on par.

 

[THREAD HIJACK OVER]

[russiangunrunner 10]

wow. this thread is 90% bullshit written by guys who've owned maybe a couple rifles but deffinately not the spectrum of communist era firearms.

 

only the russians make hammer forged barrels?

chinese sks's are on par with the russian ones?

parts kits are crap?

 

ya'll are crazy.

 

how bout we hear it from the people who've owned and shot across the spectrum....

it's pretty hard to fuck up an ak.... so they're all good rifles but claiming that overpriced chinese crap is superior, or that any rifle other than russian will melt after a couple mags... there are differences, but not like everybody claims... and the guys talking about the galil or sako and valmet rifles are dead on. once you buy a rifle from every country making them you really start seeing whats up. and snobs who pay too much for a rare model or those who've only owned a saiga and a wasr and think thats all there is....

 

lighten up :-)

oh and cut the bull....