icefire 10 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) ok, I tried to install my dinzag bullet guide an hour ago. First, the drill bit wandered whilke I was drilling and i didnt notice due to bad light. I drilled a hole completely thru the trunnion too far in toward the barrel. At that point, I should have just tapped it and drilled out the bullet guide to accept the screw at the strange location. But no, beacuse i'm an idiot, I tried to drill another hole in the right place. Got the hole drilled, all the way thru the trunnion again, but now have 2 holes, front and back facing the barrel, in a kind of figure 8 situation. the problem is, is that when I try to tap the front hole, (the one closest to the right place, the tap freezes up and spins in the tap holder, due to the holes being broken thru together in a place about halfway down. the edge grabs the tap, and locks it up. I cant tap it. Have I ruined the trunnion forever? or can i find a handle that might hole the tap securely, and keep trying? That seems like I'm causing more damage... One Idea i have is to fill the wrong hole carefully with a toothpick with JB weld if possible, let it dry, then try to tap again...but the jb weld might fill into the good hole.... What do I do? HELP!! Am I just screwed? I'm way out in the mountains hundreds of mile away from any gunsmith or shop.... At this point i will take any and all ideas before i throw this thing against the wall... UPDATE: Now I'm screwed for sure. I tried to hold the tap with vice grips, just to get the threads to start. of course, the tip of the tap, about 1/8' BROKE OFF ABOUT 1/8" DOWN IN THE "FIGURE 8" SHAPED HOLE. SUCH A SMALL PIECE, THERES NO WAY TO GET IT OUT. The hole is too small of a diameter to get anything at all into there to get it out. And, its caught tight in there against where the 2 holes come together... Please, someone tell me how to fix this. I have no more money. The closest machine shop is 4 hours and hundreds of miles away, thru a snowstorm tonight and they would be closed tommorow. I cant afford to send it to a gunsmith to fix.... 2nd UPDATE: I managed to get a small allen wrench down in there and pry out the broken piece of tap. the small broken piece dropped down in between the bottom of the holes in the trunnion and the sheet meatl...its out of the way now...Now I'm stuck with an oval almost figure 8 shaped opening of 2 6-32 holes together. is the solution to drill the whole thing larger and tap them, and use a bigger diameter screw? As you can tell, I'm not that mechanically inclined...I got the first hole drilled easily enough, but it was in the wrong place. Now thats theres two, what next? Edited February 28, 2010 by icefire Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mav 459 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 You could rivet it in, or have it done. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Schneiderman 2 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 I'm no expert, not a gunsmith or a machinist etc, but thinking about how the gun functions and how the bullet guide functions I don't think you are screwed. Keep in mind the AK is a simple, rugged weapon, not some high tech, precise instrument. All the bullet guide is is a piece of metal that the round runs into, causing it to ride up into the chamber. With the right magazines the rifle will function without a bullet guide, so the easiest solution is to just buy the proper magazines (Surefire I think?). But those mags are more expensive. Otherwise all you have to do is fashion a reliable means for the round to ride up into the chamber from a surplus mag. I am absolutely 100% sure there are other ways to do this besides the bullet guide and drilled+tapped hole. Exactly what those ways are I am not sure on, but I bet there are plenty of more knowledgeable people on this forum than me who will tell you. I remember reading that at least one person simply left the hole untapped and secure the bullet guide screw with a nut on the other side. If you can get the broken tap out of the hole (difficult, I know) this may be an option. You already expressed a familiarity with JB weld. I would think that you could simply fashion a bullet guide out of JB weld right there on the trunnion. I'm not too experienced with JB weld, only used it once, but if it will adhere to the steel on the trunnion then I think it would be fine. Don't take my word for it, wait for someone more knowledgeable than me to confirm this, but don't lost hope. It's an AK. You didn't break it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
icefire 10 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) You could rivet it in, or have it done. Well, I have no way to redrill or rivet it in...I dont have many tools. And like I said, no place within 100's of miles to take it to...and no money to send it out...its a brand new saiga that Ive only shot 60 rounds thru...a present for christmas...I just want to get the bullet guide in...But how to get a bigger hole even for a rivet or larger screw? the edges of the existing hole are tiny, and not round...seems like a hole would end up being 1/4" or bigger if it was drilled out to be even...that would weaken the trunnion for sure... Edited February 28, 2010 by icefire Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GregM1 241 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 you could also choose to have it welded into place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) Yeah, at this point stop messing with the tap and drill as the trunion is ruined. Either weld the bullet guide in place, or if no welding equipment available, you can try and Afghan it and just sand the trunion and bottom of the bullet guide nice and rough, and JB Weld it in place. Not preferable of course, but it will only run you $5 and JB Weld will do the job. In your situation this is probably the best bet as any other option will be far more expensive. I know that sounds pretty terrible, but it will hold up. Edited February 28, 2010 by Klassy Kalashnikov Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ae13291 3 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 im pretty sure JB weld will do the trick Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 I know you already said you cant do it, but seriously, riveting is the easiest answer. All you need to set a solid steel rivet is a hammer, and a punch, really. (granted, thats not exactly the prettiest rivet, there, but it will hold) Slightly more effort will get you a bucking plate and a press (or a bench vice) and look as pretty as can be. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
icefire 10 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) Ok, I know that I might be able to just JB weld the entire bullet guide into place, as it doesnt have much force on it...but I am still hoping the hole(s) can be drilled slightly oversize and tapped. I'm enclosing a pic. the holes go all the way thru, but are still very small diameter...if you guys would look at the pic, and let me know what you think...If I COULD get it into a machine shop, do you think the hole could be drilled larger, or would this just weaken the trunnion more...? I'll JB weld the guide down into place if possible, maybe I could attach a stud into the small hole that holds it into place with JB weld on the stud, as well as on the bottom of the bullet guide itself...Just thinking how to salvage this....I was warned that tapping the hole might be a hassle, but never thought that drilling it itself might be a problem... Edited February 28, 2010 by icefire Quote Link to post Share on other sites
CMX 1 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 I had kinda the same issue. I just ended up drilling the hole larger, and just bolted the bullet guide on. A few hundred rounds later and it is still running like a champ. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Utah_Jay 2 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 Personally at this point I would JB weld it on. There is no reason that won't hold up. For those who have not yet put a bullet guide in, I recommend using a center punch before you start drilling. That is what I did on mine so the drill bit would not wander. Then I just let the drill bit do the work. Also make sure when you start to tap it you using a cutting oil. And go easy on it and you shouldn't have any problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paulry 50 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 The guide has a lip that slides under the rear of the barrel. This holds the guide in place and takes all the load of the cartridge hitting it. The bolt just holds it down and keeps it from moving. The J B weld is a second place option to riveting. Hell has anyone ever thought to Pop rivet a bullet guide? If you could get one close or if you can find some real mild steel or copper to lightly pound down as a rivet, you would be good to go. The tough part of riveting is to get a solid support under the trunnion so you don't dent the receiver just below it. Anyone think of a soft metal that would work? Something lying around the house? I think it would be easy to make a small little rivet. I had the same problem with my first bullet guide, the center punch was not dead center (blind) but with patience and persistence I worked it until it fit. Good luck. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thehopping1 105 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 I personally wouldn't trust JB weld alone to hold your BG to your trunnion. I don't see a pic but it sound like your trunnion is fine, if anything drill the hole a little bigger and get a nut and longer bolt and use JB weld so it doesn't move front to back. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
icefire 10 Posted February 28, 2010 Author Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) ok, I did some damage control after I stopped and took a long breath. I was able to drill the hole a little bigger, and tapped it enough to use a different screw. I used JB weld as locktite on the screw and on the bottom of the bullet guide where it touches the trunnion, so it should be semi-permanent...It was JB Kwik, which sets in an hour, so 2 hours after i did it, I manually cycled 2 30 round clips thru it. After a few jams at first they all fed thru. its too late tonite to fire it and make sure it works properly self-cycling...but it looks like it will. I took the time to add all the other things I have been saving up for it, and I will attach a pic here. i have a Midwest tac rail, dinzag bulllet guide, mil-surp mag modification, forward tac grip, and a tapco T6 stock with PG..(yes, I know the tapco isnt the best, its temporaary until I get a better one)...As soon as I can afford the parts, I will convert it the proper way.. [/img] BTW, The Saiga version of these Midwest Industries quad rails are top notch...well=built, sturdy, and look good...you can get the Saiga version (its 2 inches longer than the standard AK one) from Mil Surp .com [/img] Edited February 28, 2010 by icefire Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GregM1 241 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 (edited) you had that photo link all jacked up. Edited February 28, 2010 by GregM1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
paprotective 362 Posted February 28, 2010 Report Share Posted February 28, 2010 ice.. I would suggest very lightly beveling the lead edge of the guide with a flat file (coming from the mag side) so the ride for the bullet is smoother this also will reduce the 'break-in' time. ) See pic.. BTW some people do the thin coat of JB weld under the guide.. Its been done here before LOTS of times. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
icefire 10 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 (edited) you had that photo link all jacked up. hey, Thanks for fixing my picture post...I did that at 5 am after working on the gun all night, and was stressed and half-brain dead..Usually I can figure out how to post pix... And BTW: That is the new Saiga-specific Midwest rail on there, Its just a lil longer than the regular AK rail they sell...I like it a lot...$119 plus .49 cent shipping from Milsurpstuff online (cant post link, not a sponsor) Edited March 1, 2010 by icefire Quote Link to post Share on other sites
icefire 10 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 ice.. I would suggest very lightly beveling the lead edge of the guide with a flat file (coming from the mag side) so the ride for the bullet is smoother this also will reduce the 'break-in' time. ) See pic.. BTW some people do the thin coat of JB weld under the guide.. Its been done here before LOTS of times. Thanks, I am planning on beveling it as soon as I get home to my Dremel on Friday...I also need to smooth out a couple of other rough edges here and there..And I figured the JB weld wwould be extra insurance to hold the BG in place, even though the screw is in there...Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Time to convert that rifle for real man. You will be happy you did. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
icefire 10 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Time to convert that rifle for real man. You will be happy you did. very soon...it's my very next thing to do to it...probably within weeks...And I'll go a LOT slower to avoid potential "oops' like the BG drilling..and refer back here constantly while I do convert it..The expertise on this forum is invaluable to a noob like me... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
my762buzz 141 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Time to convert that rifle for real man. You will be happy you did. very soon...it's my very next thing to do to it...probably within weeks...And I'll go a LOT slower to avoid potential "oops' like the BG drilling..and refer back here constantly while I do convert it..The expertise on this forum is invaluable to a noob like me... If you ever need to drill the trunnion on another one, you can crazy glue the bullet guide in place before you do and this helps to check for bolt clearance. Then allow the guide to serve as a drill bit guide as you drill through the screw hole into the trunnion. Crazy glue is easy enough to remove with acetone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GregM1 241 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 I would suggest very lightly beveling the lead edge of the guide with a flat file I used a 4" taper file and did that exact thing with mine during install last night. The first round was all scraped up after the first load. Filed the guide then everything was smooth sailing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chevyman097 2,579 Posted March 1, 2010 Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 Next time I would suggest marking alignment then use a punch to make an indention where you will drill. This should keep the drillbit from moving around while trying to drill in the spot you want it to go. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
icefire 10 Posted March 1, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2010 (edited) Next time I would suggest marking alignment then use a punch to make an indention where you will drill. This should keep the drillbit from moving around while trying to drill in the spot you want it to go. yeah, I was going to, but I forgot to bring my Dremel to work with me, (where i worked on the gun), which would have had the cone sander wheel to make a divot, I also didnt have a punch with me, so I tried to use a screw, which worked a lil bit, but the hole started a lil bit too far in, and I couldnt tell until I finished drilling. At that point, i should have just tapped it and modded the bullet guide to fit it, but I messed up and drilled another hole, too close to the first one. It all fixed now, but I learned a good lesson... Edited March 1, 2010 by icefire Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AK-OD 0 Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 you had that photo link all jacked up. Dude, I like that handguard....I'm gonna be starting my own conversion soon...i wanna fixed butt stock but i would like a handguard like yours minus the foregrip. Did you have to do any modifactions up front for that handguard or do you just take the factory one off and put the new one on?....I basically wanna do the Tapco conversion but add that cool handguard you have. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RookieShooter 5 Posted March 4, 2010 Report Share Posted March 4, 2010 Can you provide more info or link on the maglock? Thanks Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 You know, I have heard about this hole wandering etc. a hundred times it seems like around here and it just came to me that people should use a center punch or even a center drill first. Then use some sort of fluid that is designed for tapping/machining. WD-40 IS NOT TAPPING FLUID! Do it right the first time and you only have to do it once. I hope this helps someone and am sorry I couldn't have helped the OP before he screwed it up. I hope it works ok for him. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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