Best home defence S12 set-up

[Ragnar 10]

Yes it's a $250 shotgun. No, I paid $550 for it. Yes, I did a lot of work to it. Sure, I can build you one just like it for $1500. -Kris' Signature (above)

 

Now that is funny! I think I have said nearly those exact words at least five times.

Edited March 18, 2010 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[stix213 3]

My opinion is practicing and repeated familiarization with your wife's favorite firearm is going to be far more important than picking the perfect firearm for the job. It needs to be something your wife isn't scared of shooting (an S-12 is a bit scary, part of the fun) and something she has used frequently. Even if she has fired the S-12 several times, in the heat of the moment it can be easy to forget the safety, to pull the charging handle, etc unless she has fired it so many times she already does all those motions without thinking.

 

If she isn't doing frequent practice with her chosen firearm, S-12 or whatever else, then realistically a phone might be a better weapon of choice for her than any firearm. An unarmed burglar breaking into your home who is confronted with a woman holding an S-12... only for the burglar to notice she has left the safety on, is now a burglar holding a loaded S-12 at your wife... unfortunately that is a real possibility when using a firearm isn't second nature. Locking the bedroom door with the kids and calling 911 might be better if she won't practice.

Edited March 19, 2010 by stix213

[Ragnar 10]

The Bride loves her Benelli M2 with SpeedFeed's short LOP tactical stock and Tritium night sights. She uses a neoprene and foam raised comb to get her sight alignment just right, and reduce the recoil on her cheek. Much, much lighter than the Saiga.

[racolqui 19]

I keep a Mossberg .410 HD model loaded with #4 shot with laser and tac light with in easy reach of my wife and daughter. I also have a Taurus judge, a Rossi .45LC Ranch hand, and a Keltec P3AT .380 with in easy reach. The way my house is built The bad guy would be coming from rooms that are to the right of a half moon hall way away from the bedrooms. Plus I have a killer Boston terrier and bad ass Yorkshire terrier to warn of an intruder and may eat them from the ankles up before I have a chance to shoot them.

.

[sickness 89]

If you're SERIOUS about home defence, the answer is to look at who may be doing the fighting, and to pick a tool - or maybe a few tools - to maximize the effectiveness of the person. Guns don't kill. People do. You need to pick tools that turn your wife, yourself, and maybe your child into weapons.

 

If your wife isn't going to practice that should be seen as a problem. You should pick a tool to help alleviate that problem, but NOT necessarily by picking a big old intimidating 12ga for the "spread". You should consider a gun that she can handle well and that she will be comfortable shooting so that she is more likely to train in the first place. She will be safer with a 9mm carbine that she has trained with and is CONFIDENT with, rather than a 12ga that she flinches with when she shoots.

 

A 20rd drum is ridiculous for HD. Its ridiculous in general, in my opinion. It is a great range toy. Its fun as hell. But it is heavy, and forces the offhand into an awkward position to reach around the drum. I'd MUCH rather have my 8rd Izzy mags. By far. Every time. The only way I load up my MD20 for defence is if I'm up against aliens with 7 hearts.

 

The S12 isn't a cheap gun, on the average. By the time you work on it to get it 100% reliable and get it converted, and all that - you'll be in for some dough. For the price, you can get two guns that better meet your needs.

 

If I were you?

 

I'd get a Remington 870 for myself (a Mossberg 500 is just as good. I just prefer the 870) in 12ga and keep it loaded with #4 or reduced load buck. If you want heavy duty stuff, get a police model, which typically have heavier barrels.

 

For my wife, I'd get a pistol caliber carbine. I'd probably opt for a Keltec Sub-2000 in 9mm, if you can find one. A Hipoint or Beretta carbine would be fine too. If you want milspec, get an M1 Carbine in .30 Carbine. A lever-action carbine in .357 Magnum would be a great choice too. Actually, you should take her somewhere that rents guns. Some gun stores have indoor ranges where you can rent different guns and try them out. Find one and make it a weekend trip if you have too. Saturday can be for the shooting, and Sunday can be for something she likes to do. Buy her the gun SHE likes, is comfortable with, and which shoots the best for her. Caliber is largely irrelevant.. so long as it isn't an anemic round like .22lr, .32ACP or .380 or something like that, it is worth it.

 

Your wife will be able to handle a pistol caliber carbine easier, and she might end up finding it enjoyable after awhile. If she doesn't enjoy shooting, she is NOT going to enjoy 12ga and she will almost certainly develop bad habits with flinching, closing her eyes, or whatever from being forced to shoot one.. at least with a pistol carbine, she will get eased in and might end up working up to the 12ga in time. If so, thats great .. if NOT .. at least she will be able to handle the 9mm.

 

A pistol carbine MAY not "shred" body armor .. but thats OK. A good load out of a carbine will penetrate soft armor. If they are wearing hard armor, hell even your 12ga won't do shit. And with the pistol carbine in that situation, it is easier to make aimed headshots.

 

As another poster touched on here.. your best survival strategy, EVEN if you are a bad-ass super-duper elite member of SEAL Team 6 is to get your family into a room, lock and barricade the door, point the muzzles at it, and wait for the cops. You don't need lights and lasers and all that bullshit on your guns. If you're smart, you're not going to go clearing rooms unless you absolutely have to. Police and soldiers call in backup or air support all the time because that is how you survive. You don't own a single thing which is worth dying over.. and your kid doesn't own a single thing that is worth losing her Dad over. You have homeowners insurance to pay for that bullshit. You have the guns to protect your life, not your property.

 

The #1 thing that will save you is being smart, not tough.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

MY OPINION FOR WHAT ITS WORTH WHEN SOMEONE BREAKS IN UR HOUSE U DONT WANT TO BE FUMBALING AROUND WITH MAGS AND FLASHLIGHTS ECT.WHEN YOUR ADRENALINE IS RUNNING YOU HAVE ABOUT THE SAME MOTOR FUNCTION AS IF YOU HAD A GOOD BEER BUZZ GOING....SO MY SETUP IS A MOSSBERG 500 PISTOLGRIP SHOTGUN LOADED WITH 00 BUCK ITS SMALL ENOUGH TO GO AROUND CORNERS AND NOT GET CAUGHT UP ON EVERYTHING AND I CAN KEEP IT LOADED WITH EIGHT SHELLS WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT THE SHELLS BEING DAMAGED LIKE U DO WHEN U KEEP A SAIGA LOADED..THAT IN MIND I LOVE MY SAIGA 12 DEARLY AND IT IS MY SHIT HITS THE FAN GUN IF ANYTHING REALLY MESSED UP HAPENS THEN SHE COMES OUT BUT FOR HD IT REALLY IS NOT PRACTICAL LIKE LOVELESS SAID

 

Ok folks it's now time for "One Word Solutions with Caged"

 

TRAINING!

[yooper14.5 84]

My only real input here is if there's a possibility of your wife needing to run a s-12, you probably want to reduce the recoil as much as possible. I run with a enidine buffer, recoil pad and monster brake. However, the brake might cause muzzle flash issues, so you might want to try a flash hider. Don't run a mid barrel compensator, as they drop barrel pressure, hindering cycling and FPS.

 

As for my plan, Anybody that breaks into my house is going to leave in a body bag. I can step out my bedroom door, and I have a clear shot to 90% of the main floor, max distance being 25 yards. And its not possible for them to enter through the 10% I can't see. All the bedrooms are at the end of the hallway in a cluster, so no worries about hitting friendlies. The nearest neighbor is 200 yards away. I have a clear shot on all of the main floor easy entrance points, and if they break in the basement, which is the other easy way in, I just sit and point my gun down the stairs and wait for them to walk by my window of vision. Every bedroom in my house is armed with some fully loaded gun.

Edited July 6, 2011 by yooper14.5

[ewoketeer 35]

I gotta start with: Everyone, please don't get mad at me for being honest with opinions that many people here may disagree with... I am respectful and I hope all of you will be. I'm happy to have people disagree, it wouldn't be interesting if everyone said the same thing but there's no need to get pissed at me for respectfully thinking something against the grain...

 

I LOVE my Saiga!! I personally think you should own one if at all interested and enjoy the hell out of it! I recommend the Saiga to many people. That said, Saiga for home defense in your unique situation MIGHT not be the best idea. I like Chocolate Ice Cream but a lot of people want a different flavor, some are even allergic to Chocolate! Everyone is different, when the wife is included, it is important to consider all variables with either of you as the potential shooter.

 

Maybe a 9mm full of hollowpoints in your strong hand with a good flashlight in your off hand held out away from your chest is right for you. Maybe a different handgun or rifle but it is possible that the Saiga isn't right for you (and or your wife). I love the 1911 type, but it's not for everyone. I don't feel I can comfortably recommend that you use a tool for something as important as defending your life and the lives of your family without helping you at least consider other options and eliminate them altogether just in case you haven't.

 

When in the dark it is important as hell to identify your target... but in home defense if someone is there to do you harm, if you have a shotgun with a mounted light walking around a corner and the attacker has a .45 while hiding in a dark area, he's going to see your light and he may shoot at it. He'll see your light beam down the hall before you can find him. It is a beacon shining around giving away your position. Some people I know use night vision, some use a hand gun with a loose LED flashlight in their off hand held away from the body. If the criminal shoots at the light their hit percentage goes down. They'd have to be a terrible shot to hit anything other than a hand or arm if aiming their firearm at the light. They may not know that your light is on a shotgun but if you're an unarmed ignorant gun control supporter (I know YOU aren't) you may be holding a flashlight in front of you. Bottom line: bad guys are called BAD guys for a reason and them knowing where you are while you don't know where they are is just plain scary. If you have tactical experience and are going after the jackass that chose to bust into your place and can safely and quickly clear rooms than great! Enjoy the light, it should be bright and durable. Can your wife clear the room and fire on a suspect with out hesitation if she sees a weapon being raised at her? If she, or you even, yells "I have a gun and will use it if you don't leave!" and the bastard doesn't run away piddling in his pants... Then you fire a warning shot and the sound still doesn't scare them off, they have no value on life and may be high on PCP and/or Meth or many other narcotics and he may have the intent of knocking you off to steal stuff to sell for more drugs. It's not likely and I hope you never have to be in any of these situations but if you find yourself with an intruder in your house and you have time to get to a firearm, it doesn't matter what it is in MOST situations as long as it is reliable and easy to operate.

 

All light issues aside, even though I'm sure we'll hear from people that animately disagree with me, in a home your wife and possibly even yourself may benefit from a lightweight, easy to use and handle hand gun that can tuck under a mattress or in a bedside drawer or in a BioVault near the bed... You gotta look at your situation. If you want a Saiga and only a Saiga and home defense isn't a worry but an excuse or a great additional benefit, then sweet! I really do hope you love it and it works great for you. I'm not a dick trying to rain on your parade about wanting to have a Saiga. I'm the opposite. Trying to help with your home defense and I'd love you to have the coolest firearm I've ever held. I hope, if the Saiga is right for you, you want it even more now after reading my post.

 

Good luck to you man! The people on here are 99.9% awesome and you'll have all the help you can handle from the great members here!

 

I wouldn't disagree with any of that advise. I would never take the position that an S12 is a "one size fits all" firearm by any means. It sounded like the OP had made up his mind about a weapon so I made my comments under that assumption. You are right about tactics being an important part of the equation. I don't have children or anyone else in another room that I have worry about so if I hear someone in my house I have no problem staying put behind the bed with the S12 trained on the door while I call for reinforcements. People with kids of course may not be comfortable with that and have to put themselves in harms way more than me. Having said that, nobody is going to get in my house, or even inside my fence for that matter, without me knowing it because "Jake" hears everything and lets me know when he does. You can't beat a dog for an early warning system. And if the bad guy kills my dog then he is going to die very shortly or I am going to die trying to kill him. Some people might think that is crazy but my dog would do the same for me and those are my values and that's not going to change. OK, I'm babbling now. My point is that every situation is different and tactics need to be thought out ahead of time, with the gun itself being only one part of that.

 

Your dog is a part of your layered defense system. If your dog is killed because it's doing it's job, the party responsible is trying to get to you with malevolent intent. Deal with them appropriately

[tokinshitload 12]

You want an easy to use,small,low recoil shotgun for your wife? If you really want to go that route get a Taurus Judge. If she cant handle the 410 you can put in some 45 long colt or 45acp with some star clips. Training with any firearm would be the most prudent move on your part to get her involved. I dont recommend an s12 for home defense other than a backup for a possible home invasion. Unless you want to pay to have it cut and file paperwork for a SBS. They are big guns that even folded are long.

Get your family involved with defensive firearms use. My son and wife both are comfortable shooting a 45acp 1911. I never worry about leaving my family defenseless when I am not home! I am confident that if need be both of them can place a full magazine center mass. My son on the other-hand will double tap an crook in the head without hesitation.

xacex

[Black3 16]

I love my S-12 and if we got into some SHTF situation where I had to defend my home from raiding zombies, it would be my short-distance weapon of choice. That said, the weapons beside my bed are my Mossberg 500 and a Walther PPK/S in .380. The Mossberg has the recoil-absorbing stock so my wife is more comfortable with it, though I can't say she is all that comfortable, but she'd fire it effectively if she had to. The S-12 is just too big, heavy, and nasty to use as a HD weapon that your wife might have to use unless she is a really, really gun-friendly woman. The Mossy has a light, but I'm not sure I'd use it unless I absolutely couldn't see the intruder. It's just the two of us, so anybody in my house in the middle of the night is an intruder and is probably going to die. I'm not a big handgun guy except as a last-ditch and backup weapon so all we have in modern handguns are the PPK/S and she has a P-22 as a handbag gun.

 

Everybody likes to talk about slugs and 00 for home defense but unless you live way out in the country and just like home repair and lawsuits, I don't think either are the first choice in the 'burbs. The Mossy has five rounds of #8 birdshot in the tube. At realistic middle of the night intruder distances of 5 yds. or less, that is a deadly round that won't kill your neighbors across the street. Maybe somebody totally whacked out on meth or PCP would take a step or two after a centermass shot at ten feet, but not likely. Ten or fifteen feet down the hall is the realistic distance for HD. I have a sidesaddle that has three 00 and two slugs if I have to do something to follow on, but if you're in home defense and you're doing real slug shooting, you're flirting with a murder charge; if you go looking for the guy or shoot him as he's fleeing, it ain't self defense, castle law or not.

[RichardC1967 81]

The only reason it needs work and customization is so that you'll fit in with 95% of the members here..mine works fine out of the box with only minor cosmetic changes like a Tapco stock and foregrip to make it look cool..I don't have a $3000.00 "Sons of Guns" modification, just some minor adjustments (I added a KA puck and Gunfixer plug,puck was free and plug around $25-$30)and I bet mine shoots just as good as the most expensive moded Saiga on this site, i.e. it goes bang when I pull the trigger(everytime), no FTE's or FTF's(I guess the guy that built mine wasn't drunk that day, 2009 ,3 hole model)..

Edited July 13, 2011 by RichardC1967

[RichardC1967 81]

MY OPINION FOR WHAT ITS WORTH WHEN SOMEONE BREAKS IN UR HOUSE U DONT WANT TO BE FUMBALING AROUND WITH MAGS AND FLASHLIGHTS ECT.WHEN YOUR ADRENALINE IS RUNNING YOU HAVE ABOUT THE SAME MOTOR FUNCTION AS IF YOU HAD A GOOD BEER BUZZ GOING....SO MY SETUP IS A MOSSBERG 500 PISTOLGRIP SHOTGUN LOADED WITH 00 BUCK ITS SMALL ENOUGH TO GO AROUND CORNERS AND NOT GET CAUGHT UP ON EVERYTHING AND I CAN KEEP IT LOADED WITH EIGHT SHELLS WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT THE SHELLS BEING DAMAGED LIKE U DO WHEN U KEEP A SAIGA LOADED..THAT IN MIND I LOVE MY SAIGA 12 DEARLY AND IT IS MY SHIT HITS THE FAN GUN IF ANYTHING REALLY MESSED UP HAPENS THEN SHE COMES OUT BUT FOR HD IT REALLY IS NOT PRACTICAL LIKE LOVELESS SAID

 

Ok folks it's now time for "One Word Solutions with Caged"

 

TRAINING!

 

Hooked on Phonics worked for me!!

[msrdiver 42]

Sellior and Belliot 4 Buck has a nice spread out of my 20" and 19" barrel guns. It is the first round in each setup followed by two Win. low recoil OO Buck shells. Then repeat the order. I want the spread the 4 Buck delivers that way I am more likely to hit the BG while I'm stuck in survival mode. Then a second and third, if necessary, very controllable OO shots. In my area breakins are perpetrated by BG's in pairs or more. A few blocks away 4 men broke into the home of two older women and two BG kept them on the floor while the others stole the electronics.

 

Get a dog, respect that dog, and it will go to bat for your family with wild barks of alarm. Use those seconds to get your gun while the BG is reconsidering since you have a dog in the house. Barks buy you needed seconds.

 

I've not tried the low recoil OO out of the Saiga yet. I suspect it will NOT work. The 4 buck works in the Saiga just fine but is full power.

[kevin.rose0@gmail.com 62]

Me neither, but I know some of the low recoil stuff didn't cycle an 1187P.

[sickness 89]

Get a dog, respect that dog, and it will go to bat for your family with wild barks of alarm. Use those seconds to get your gun while the BG is reconsidering since you have a dog in the house. Barks buy you needed seconds.

 

+1 for having a dog.

 

Some years ago, my car was in the shop and late at night some dumbass tried to break into my home.. probably figured no one was there because no cars were in the driveway and the lights were all out. My dog was downstairs when he/they tried; I heard the sound of the glass break, and I heard my dog go batshit. I grabbed a 357 6" Smith and perched near the top of the stairs covering the staircase .. fully expecting to have to shoot someone for breaking into my home and killing my dog.

 

Midnight just kept on barking though. After a minute or two, I went downstairs .. found him with a cut on his head and no intruders in sight.

 

I cleaned up the wound, and defrosted the biggest steak in the freezer for him. He snatched up the steak and brought it right down next to that door with the broken window. He never hung out by that door before that night.. but after that, it was where he slept always. He died there in his sleep too.

 

I miss that son of a bitch.

[VladTepes 160]

don't know if this has been said yet.. but I have a Saiga 12.. I would probably grab for home defense.. but my fiance on the other hand.. not really a reasonable weapon.. for her I have a cx4 carbine full of self defense ammo..

 

light weight... small tight design offer low profile..

stability of a carbine..

ability to accessorize as needed....

accurate on man size targets at 150 yards + with standard sights..

next to no felt recoil..

pistol caliber allowing you to purchase a round suited to your needs.. if you live in an urban area select round and caliber based on minimal over penetration..

 

a handgun is good and all.. but not for an untrained novice.. actually hitting a target with a pistol in the night while holding a flashlight.. under stress.. yeah.. good luck.. on the carbine the flash light is mounted.. and the natural curves of the gun allow you to set it up so it is all so smooth..when I hold my storm my thumb naturally falls on the flashlight..

 

all in all.. for home defense.. under normal circumstances.. a reliable pistol caliber carbine with modern self defense ammo is the way to go.. IMO..

[sickness 89]

all in all.. for home defense.. under normal circumstances.. a reliable pistol caliber carbine with modern self defense ammo is the way to go.. IMO..

 

Yup. I'm an advocate of pistol caliber carbines too. So is my wife.

 

She's been nagging me about finding a good lever gun in .44mag. "I want some wallop, and it'll be fun to play Annie Oakley."

 

So, I guess my Steyer AUG is going to have to wait even longer. But at least when I finally get it, she'll shoot it with me. Could be worse, I suppose.

[ewoketeer 35]

Regardless of what you choose, keep in mind most juridictions require the intruder be a credible threat to life and limb. I believe most of the patrons of this forum understand this, so this is for the less-well-informed...

[Saiga_rom 91]

for HD i prefer my AKM with bayonet. you dont have to worry about gas settings, or rounds deforming. The AK will always work, and thats a beautiful thing for any type of self defense situation.

 

its also true that in most states, especially california, that a home invader must physically threaten you before you can shoot him, which is where the bayonet becomes a major advantage, as it allows you to deter the home invader without actually harming them. no one in their right mind is going to rush you if you have a loaded AK with a bayonet in your hands.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Cali_Armz

[Mephis 82]

Short as possible, stripped down as much as possible, a decent light, and a competent person behind it.

 

Pretty simple really.

 

 

My MSAR is my go-to for home defense. Only thing I trust to have responsible ballistics for working inside of a home.

(In case you didn't know, M193 usually stops entirely inside the body because it's fragmented too bad at that point to exit. It will also penetrate barriers which might be an important thing to consider for home defense should you need to take a shot through a door or a wall.) Have a 1-4x on it since I do use it for the range once in awhile, but leave it on 1x... Also have a 250 lumen strobe light on it as well. Being 27" overall, with a full 16" barrel, it makes for a ridiculously good home defense gun. Sure a red dot might be better, but if you're the type that like to shut yours off, like me, a 1x scope is a little more reliable in that sense.

Edited July 14, 2011 by Tombs