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RoughRider666

Flashhider or Breecher

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Hey guys, my S-12 conversion is finally done and i feel between my own work and Alliance Armament's full reliability service we did a pretty kick ass job on this gun, and now its time for a muzzle devise of some kind, but i lack the knowledge on the shotguns on which type would benefit me the best. Can somebody out there please tell me the real differences between the functions of a Flashhider, Door Breach, Muzzlebrake or do they all function as a Brake as well?

 

please enlighten me...

 

thanX,

-RR

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Cobra's WinChoke adapter. Muzzle breaks are worthless on a shotgun. Never used a breacher, but why can't you just stand off a bit from the locking mechanism and shoot a slug or two into it and accomplish the same thing? Do you have rounds made specifically for breaching or do you just want it to look cool? A choke is actually a beneficial addition and allows you to tailor your gun to the specific load you are shooting.

Edited by sapper1371usmc
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Cobra's WinChoke adapter. Flashhiders are worthless on a shotgun. Never used a breacher, but why can't you just stand off a bit from the locking mechanism and shoot a slug or two into it and accomplish the same thing? Do you have rounds made specifically for breaching or do you just want it to look cool? A choke is actually a beneficial addition and allows you to tailor your gun to the specific load you are shooting.

 

Sapper said it best. However I prefer the Poly Choke II to the Winchoke adapters.

Edited by Classy Kalashnikov

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Cobra's WinChoke adapter. Flashhiders are worthless on a shotgun. Never used a breacher, but why can't you just stand off a bit from the locking mechanism and shoot a slug or two into it and accomplish the same thing? Do you have rounds made specifically for breaching or do you just want it to look cool? A choke is actually a beneficial addition and allows you to tailor your gun to the specific load you are shooting.

 

Sapper said it best. However I prefer the Poly Choke II to the Winchoke adapters.

Don't mean to highjack, but speaking of the Poly Choke II, I just got one through CSS and was shocked that the engraving of the settings was not painted so you could read them. I looked on the Poly Choke website and the engraving looks gold. I did a passable job by rubbing some white paint into it, but I'm not really happy. Also, it doesn't quite operate as smoothly as I had hoped. Anyone?

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There are two MAJOR differences between flash-hiders & breacher/brakes legally that have yet to be stated in this thread, or on the forum for quite some time...

 

Brakes have slots running vertically or semi-vertically.

Flash-hider's slots run horizontally.

 

One can shorten the barrel & use a BRAKE (permanently attached) to make up the 18" from the closed bolt-face without requiring an SBS stamp.

 

If one attempts to make up the difference in length with a permanently attached flash-hider, it won't count as barrel length & they will require an SBS stamp to be legal.

 

Flash hiders are considered more of an aggressive "evil" part, as they are supposed to be tactically advantageous & "hide" the location of the shooter.

 

Breacher/Breaks are in theory, to reduce recoil, which is less "evil".

Edited by Paulyski

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If one attempts to make up the difference in length with a permanently attached flash-hider, it won't count as barrel length & they will require an SBS stamp to be legal.

 

Never heard of that. I thought as long as the barrel was not less than 18", and any devices were permanently attached, you were good to go. I didn't think it had a bearing on what was on the terminal end of the barrel

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Pauly, are you sure on that? Source? I thought permanently attached= part of barrel, even if it was just a peice of pipe. For the sake of the thread, I vote Choke.

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Pauly, are you sure on that? Source? I thought permanently attached= part of barrel, even if it was just a peice of pipe. For the sake of the thread, I vote Choke.

+1

what he said

no big interest in flash or breach or what is legal to add length (as stated thought you could even use just pipe) while maybe not as cool I usually want a choke system in a shotgun.

Edited by going12220

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Researching...

 

This info came from the most knowledgeable member on this forum with regards to BATFE laws, regulations & intricacies therein...

 

As the BATFE has (seemingly intentionally) made their specific official regulations rather hard to find on the net & if one google's it, one only finds here-say from unofficial sources, so this may take a little while to deliver a source from an official government website... I'll work on it.

 

Maybe he'll chime in.

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Here's where I am so far...

 

 

 

 

Seems like lots of good reads...

I haven't gotten very far down the list yet, but check it out.... Interesting to hear stuff from the horse's mouth.

 

Edited To Remove link;

that link was setting off a lot of bells & whistles with regards to my computer's security alerts.

 

This is a copy of title 26 I'm currently reading...

 

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/laws/nfa34.htm

 

Maybe the specifics will be found herein... :unsure:

Edited by Paulyski

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ok...so how is a breach actually used...im still lost on that part? And they double as a brake? did i get that part right?

 

The breacher devices have a crown on the front of them, it is used to help grip the surface of a door and steady the shotgun, and a special door breaching round is fired either between the lock mechanism and door jamb, or the hinges.

 

Muzzle brakes, for the most part, are just for show on shotguns. None of the designs noticeably reduce recoil. Some brakes have a breaching crown as well, some do not.

 

A choke set is much more functional, and practical, as it allows you to adjust the pattern of your shotgun. Tighter choke patterns also increase pressure in the gun, and help under-gassed guns function better with cheap loads as a side bonus.

Edited by Classy Kalashnikov
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Here's where I am so far...

 

 

 

 

Seems like lots of good reads...

I haven't gotten very far down the list yet, but check it out.... Interesting to hear stuff from the horse's mouth.

 

Edited To Remove link;

that link was setting off a lot of bells & whistles with regards to my computer's security alerts.

 

This is a copy of title 26 I'm currently reading...

 

http://www.keepandbeararms.com/laws/nfa34.htm

 

Maybe the specifics will be found herein... :unsure:

Don't see anything there. Rifles do it all the time. Occasionally you'll see some weird letters from tech concerning shotguns because of their "sporting" exemption but Ive never heard that a welded on flash suppressor isnt Kosher on a shotgun. I'd have to see that letter. In any case a letter pretty much applies to the letter writer.

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ok...so how is a breach actually used...im still lost on that part? And they double as a brake? did i get that part right?

 

The breacher devices have a crown on the front of them, it is used to help grip the surface of a door and steady the shotgun, and a special door breaching round is fired either between the lock mechanism and door jamb, or the hinges.

 

 

I have yet to notice any change if felt or perceived recoil after having a breaching brake installed. However, they do work very well for jamming and holding the muzzle into the door jams while breaching.

 

As far as breaching goes and contrary to what some may believe, slugs are not used for this simply because you never know whom or what is on the other side of the door. A slug will go through the door and several walls behind it, possibly injuring a person inside. Classy is correct in his description listed above. Breaching rounds are made of highly compressed lead, copper or even plastic powder. They disintegrate shortly after impact, greatly reducing the risk of injuring someone on the other side.

 

Yes, they look cool and make the gun more functional for breaching. But as far as any type of recoil reduction, not that I have noticed yet with the shells that we use.

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In the free states, you can have a spoon welded to the end of your shotty, if it makes it 18" (just make sure it won't bend :D )

 

IOW, brake or flash hider, so long as it's permanently attached and the barrel + permanently attached device = 18" (or more), it's all gravy.

 

 

 

 

If you're in a ban state, you're in trouble for having a flash hider attached to the gun, no matter what it's used for.

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If you're in a ban state, you're in trouble for having a flash hider attached to the gun, no matter what it's used for.

 

 

As in everything else. Your'e only in trouble if you get caught.

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Oops...

I guess it's a state by state thing....

 

Guess I'm full-o-shit...

 

Sorry for any false red-flags.....

 

:backs out slowly:

 

:bag:

 

 

 

 

In any case a letter pretty much applies to the letter writer.

If one had coppies of spicific BATFE letters, they could effectively argue a case in court (as long as they were real letters with real BATFE agent's names)

 

Here's a WHOLE bunch of interesting letters I came across during my search, but ONLY CLICK THE LINK IF YOU'RE SECURE & CONFIDENT WITH YOUR ANTI-VIRUS, SPYWARE & MALWARE PROGRAMS.

AVG is giving me some blocking alarms, but after I accessed the site, I performed full scans with AVG, Spybot, McAfee & AdWare & found no problems.

 

Caution, Access at your own risk.

http://www.titleii.com/bardwell/law.html

Caution, Access at your own risk.

 

The letters provide quotes of other laws that one can google such as this letter from before the AWB was lifted;

 

 

DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

Washington, D.C. 20226

 

JUN 19 2000

903050:CHB

3311

 

Dear Mr. Bardwell:

 

This refers to your letter of May 30, 2000, in which you asked

about a semiautomatic shotgun.

 

You describe a Mossberg M9200A1 semiautomatic shotgun which accepts

4 rounds of 2-3/4 or 3-inch ammunition in a fixed tubular magazine,

and having a pistol grip and a folding stock.

 

As defined in section 921(a)(30)(D), of Title 18, United States

Code, the term "semiautomatic assault weapon" means a semiautomatic

shotgun that has at least 2 of the following features:

 

(i) a folding or telescoping stock;

 

(ii) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the

action of the weapon;

 

(iii) a fixed magazine capacity in excess of 5 rounds; and;

 

(iv) an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

 

The described semiautomatic shotgun has two of the qualifying

features; therefore, it is a semiautomatic assault weapon as

defined.

 

- 2 -

 

Mr. Bardwell

 

Section 922(v)(1), of Title 18 U.S.C., provides that it shall be

unlawful for any person to manufacture, transfer or possess a

semiautomatic assault weapon. However, paragraph (v)(3)(D)

provides that the prohibition in paragraph (1) shall not apply to

any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of

ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

 

If the described shotgun cannot hold more than 5 rounds of

ammunition in its fixed magazine, it is excluded from the

prohibition in section 922(v)(1).

 

We trust that the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.

If you have further questions concerning this matter, please

contact us.

 

 

Sincerely yours,

 

[signed]

 

Curtis H.A. Bartlett

Acting Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

 

To research laws, that which I highlighted in red is pure gold to me.

I use those #'s to find the US code, just as I would to find state Revised Statutes & Administrative Rules to find loopholes.

 

This is how one lives as free as possible & hands those in power who think that they, personally, are the law their asses in a republic's courts.

Edited by Paulyski

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James Bardwell was a God among men. His work back in the Ed Owens days laid a lot of foundation for what we're legally able to do with guns today. Having said that a lot of it is dated what with the expiration of the 94 ban and is wide open to being reinterpreted by the current head of the tech branch. I havent seen anything From James for at least 5 or 6 years and I fear he may be retired or worse. Any other lawyers want to take up the torch?

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In the free states, you can have a spoon welded to the end of your shotty, if it makes it 18" (just make sure it won't bend :D )

 

IOW, brake or flash hider, so long as it's permanently attached and the barrel + permanently attached device = 18" (or more), it's all gravy.

 

 

 

 

If you're in a ban state, you're in trouble for having a flash hider attached to the gun, no matter what it's used for.

 

How do i find what the laws are in my state? I cant find anything anywhere...

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In the free states, you can have a spoon welded to the end of your shotty, if it makes it 18" (just make sure it won't bend :D )

 

IOW, brake or flash hider, so long as it's permanently attached and the barrel + permanently attached device = 18" (or more), it's all gravy.

 

 

 

 

If you're in a ban state, you're in trouble for having a flash hider attached to the gun, no matter what it's used for.

 

How do i find what the laws are in my state? I cant find anything anywhere...

 

What state are you in?

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Ya know, if you put your state in the "location" field, I don't think anyone's gonna find you.

 

This is the field (that way, nobody's got to ask first to provide answers to residence-related questions)

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Ya know, if you put your state in the "location" field, I don't think anyone's gonna find you.

 

This is the field (that way, nobody's got to ask first to provide answers to residence-related questions)

Something tells me he's in Ca...

 

Am I right? Am I right???? :D

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Ya know, if you put your state in the "location" field, I don't think anyone's gonna find you.

 

This is the field (that way, nobody's got to ask first to provide answers to residence-related questions)

Something tells me he's in Ca...

 

Am I right? Am I right???? :D

 

 

I think that if he were in California he wouldnt have a problem finding something.

 

If I were to move to California would wouldnt do shit to my guns. Just saying.

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1) Flash hiders DO work on shotguns. I've tried them all and shoot my S12 quite often at night. I use the Tromix flashider of course and it makes a huge difference.

 

 

 

There, I fixed my post. I was thinking muzzle breaks but instead typed Flashhider. I have never used a flashhider on an S12 or any shotgun for that matter, but that is some good info to know if I ever do. Thanks Bob

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Ya know, if you put your state in the "location" field, I don't think anyone's gonna find you.

 

This is the field (that way, nobody's got to ask first to provide answers to residence-related questions)

Something tells me he's in Ca...

 

Am I right? Am I right???? :D

 

Yes, im from the Kommie state....im not a horrible person i swear! please dont hate me...lol

  • Like 2

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2) I have no idea why anyone would post that a perm-attached device doesn't count as barrel length. Please guys, if you don't know what you're talking about, either do the research or just don't post about it; you do more harm than good by spreading disinformation.

Little late bob...

Read a few posts up.

My source (who I'll not name, you can likely figure it out) is usually VERY reliable on these matters...

My deepest, sincere, heartfelt apologies on the matter.

Please forgive me.

Pwetty pweese with suga on twop?

 

isorry.jpg

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