Boba Debt 350 Posted January 29, 2011 Report Share Posted January 29, 2011 (edited) I'm just wondering why the Ace and Tromix Stocks require so much work to make them fit an S-12. From what I have read you have to remove the rear trunion and weld a plate in place. It seems like a simple adapter block that worked with the factory tang would help get these stocks on more guns. Am I missing something? Edited January 29, 2011 by Boba Debt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Juggernaut 11,054 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 IIRC, the Original ACE block retained the tang.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
evlblkwpnz 3,418 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 You just cut the tang and weld in a plate or an adapter block can be used, but the tang has to go. It's a hell of a lot easier than installing an AK100 folder. All of that cutting and fitting is kinda stressful when you have never done it before. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThirtyAughtSix 101 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Just remember, once you cut that tang off, theres no going back. It may seem like a really cool idea but you never know what your going to want down the road... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hobbyshooter 59 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) IIRC, the Original ACE block retained the tang.. Yep, there is one on the gun in my avatar. To answer the OP. The stocks you are referring to weren't designed specifically for the Saiga. They are "hot rod" parts which may require modification to fit your particular installation. Edited January 30, 2011 by hobbyshooter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I think the reason is, when folded the gun is shorter. You dont have the big block you have with folders that attach to the tang. I actually dislike the normal folders that I have on my other AK's. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I'm just wondering why the Ace and Tromix Stocks require so much work to make them fit an S-12. From what I have read you have to remove the rear trunion and weld a plate in place. It seems like a simple adapter block that worked with the factory tang would help get these stocks on more guns. Am I missing something? Welding in the back plate with the mounting holes for the Ace and Tromix stocks is an option, but you can also just use this: http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-372/Saiga-AK47-Internal-Stock/Detail Granted, you still need to remove the tang, but it's not as involved as getting into welding and whatnot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boba Debt 350 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) If you use one of the Stock Adapters what does the Bolt Carrier Group Spring fit into? I just did the math and it aint pretty $40 for the Stock Adapter $80 for the Folding Mechanism $85 for the Stock That's $205 for a stock. I really try to not be cheap but I just can't see myself spending $600 to put these stocks on my S-12s I picked up a used Tapco Folder at a gun show today for $20. It seems to do the job but I still want to get one ACE or Tromix Stock for the S-12 I plan to SBS Edited January 30, 2011 by Boba Debt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 If you use one of the Stock Adapters what does the Bolt Carrier Group Spring fit into? I just did the math and it aint pretty $40 for the Stock Adapter $80 for the Folding Mechanism $85 for the Stock That's $205 for a stock. I really try to not be cheap but I just can't see myself spending $600 to put these stocks on my S-12s I picked up a used Tapco Folder at a gun show today for $20. It seems to do the job but I still want to get one ACE or Tromix Stock for the S-12 I plan to SBS You only cut tang, not the whole thing off. Check out the pic below. You cut where the red line is. The part where the recoil spring slips into remains untouched. As for the price....well I guess ya gotta pay to play. I'll be going with the stock adapter, but I won't be using a folding mech. Saves me $80 right there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gkcf 8 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I started with a Tapco stock. Never fired the gun with it either. I swapped it out for an ACE stock with external mounting block and folding mechanism almost immediatly. I just wasn't happy with it. After shooting with the external block and the hassle involved (it kept coming loose) I decided, to hell with it, I was going to get an internal block and chop the tang. Got the part in the mail, took a hacksaw to the tang, a little dremel action, some finish filing, a shot of spray paint, bolted the block in and was good to go in about an hour. I couldn't be happier. The internal block with an ACE stock is much more sturdy than either of the other stock options. Learn from my mistake. Buy once, cry once. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boba Debt 350 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) I started with a Tapco stock. Never fired the gun with it either. I swapped it out for an ACE stock with external mounting block and folding mechanism almost immediatly. I just wasn't happy with it. After shooting with the external block and the hassle involved (it kept coming loose) I decided, to hell with it, I was going to get an internal block and chop the tang. Got the part in the mail, took a hacksaw to the tang, a little dremel action, some finish filing, a shot of spray paint, bolted the block in and was good to go in about an hour. I couldn't be happier. The internal block with an ACE stock is much more sturdy than either of the other stock options. Learn from my mistake. Buy once, cry once. "I started with a Tapco stock. Never fired the gun with it either." This is exactly how I feel. I bolted up the Tapco last night and I have no plans to fire the gun with it. I'm going to get an internal adapter and the DPH Stock, it seems like a bargain at $69, but I don't know which folder I'm going with. This one http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/servlet/-strse-171/ACE-SAIGA-FOLDING-MECHANISM/Detail Or this one http://store.carolinashooterssupply.com/catalog/2359872.JPG Edited January 30, 2011 by Boba Debt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bridis 319 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 (edited) I've got the bottom one and have never tried the top one. To fold your stock with the bottom one you have to use both hands to work the folder and it's a bit of a pain in the ass. You have to hold the gun just above the folding mechanism with one hand, grab the stock just below the folding mechanism with the other and pull up/push down (depending on how you installed the folding mechanism) on the stock to get it to fold. Because the folder is activated in this fashion it causes 2 problems. 1. The activating spring has to be rigid enough to prevent the stock from folding accidenatlly, this makes activating the folder sightly difficult. 2. However, the spring isn't rigid enough to prevent the "squishy" feeling you get when the gun recoils. Basically you can feel the the gun shifting at the spring when you shoot it. The top folder is push button activated, which should prevent that "squishy" feeling. But I don't know how hard you have to push that button to activate it or how well it will hold up over time. I hope that helps. Edited January 30, 2011 by Bridis Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gremlinx 20 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Any close up pics of the adapter that you dont cut the tang? I'm on the fence on cutting the tang..., how much longer does it make it when folded... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Any close up pics of the adapter that you dont cut the tang? I'm on the fence on cutting the tang..., how much longer does it make it when folded... None of these are mine, but these pics give you an idea of how it looks (awkward, IMO) and the added length: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Parson Julabee Jones 32 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 "I started with a Tapco stock. Never fired the gun with it either." Do folding stocks adjust as to LOP? I put the TAPCO stock on mine, and have never looked back. I shoot it daily (and lots), and it allows me to use the very short length of pull I prefer, especially with open sights, which again, I much prefer. I plan to convert with warmer weather (I use my shop now to freeze 2 liter SUNDROP bottles of water for 'target' shooting), but still haven't made up my mind as to folder or whatnot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 1) Ace wasn't originally designed just for the AK. 2) TROMIX (and all the others) are designed to be compatible with the Ace. 3) The welded plate makes the cleanest installation possible, which is why all TROMIX guns are done that way exclusively. Sure it's more work, but it looks and functions better. As posted above, if the LOP and look of the thing doesn't bug you, you can just do the bolt-on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Boba, this would be a good one for you to do an installation step by step on. Many people are doing these mods and with your attention to detail and the excellent photos you take it would be worthy of a sticky or a topic in the review thread IMHO. I for one am watching this to see how it turns out as I am going to install something different on my current S12 and am going to convert a couple more in a month or so when the gun funds are replenished. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boba Debt 350 Posted January 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Boba, this would be a good one for you to do an installation step by step on..... Why, this looks pretty simple - Cut the tang, bolt the parts in place. Am I missing something? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Boba, this would be a good one for you to do an installation step by step on..... Why, this looks pretty simple - Cut the tang, bolt the parts in place. Am I missing something? Pretty simple to you and me, I was referring to the noobs who are always asking "which stock" etc..... Once you have converted a few guns it is easy to say something is pretty simple. Me, I just wanted to see how it went and your thoughts on the one you were installing. Opinions and observations posted with a final result was kind of the point to your thread wasn't it? Loose, hard to fold, to cut or not to cut the tang, etc.... If that wasn't your intent the other posters took it in that direction. Personally I don't like the looks of the ones with the tang left and was curious to see your thoughts on the adapter block and stock you chose with some good pics. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Skitterfish 10 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 I did a cut tang with a push button folder and it was a super easy job and my first conversion. I wound up removing the folding mechanism due to my OCD not being able to deal with the minimal wiggle that is inherent in the design. I now have the skeleton stock bolted directly to the internal block and couldn't be happier with the setup. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Just get this adapter and be done with it. http://www.krebscustom.com/PartsPages/KalashnikovParts.shtml Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mrmallek 53 Posted January 30, 2011 Report Share Posted January 30, 2011 Just my 2cents but I have the old style folding mechanism - your picture #2, Don't care for it - will be removing it soon and just bolting my tromix direct to the gun. The reason I don't like it is the wiggle you get when you shoot with it. I have thought about drilling and tapping the bottom for a thumb screw to jam it. but realized for what its worth - I don't need a folder. I have heard good things about the push button - seems similar to the factory setup on my AMD65 abd tho I don't like the thin wire stock - it is solid. Good luck whichever way you go. Look forward to more of your build tutorials Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigmegina 3 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 not really a big problem cutting off the rear tang.i bought a spare rear trunnion on the ak board for $15.if i want to go back all you have to do is drill out 2 rivits and rivit in the new rear trunnion. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boba Debt 350 Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 Well I decided to go with the Internal Adapter, Push Button Folder and DPH Arms Skeleton Stock with a 1/2 recoil pad. I guess I could do a tutorial thread if I have the time. I'll be honest though, I kind of lost the motivation to post those kind of threads because of all the trolling that they inspire. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
danklab 57 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 I've got the bottom one and have never tried the top one. To fold your stock with the bottom one you have to use both hands to work the folder and it's a bit of a pain in the ass. You have to hold the gun just above the folding mechanism with one hand, grab the stock just below the folding mechanism with the other and pull up/push down (depending on how you installed the folding mechanism) on the stock to get it to fold. Because the folder is activated in this fashion it causes 2 problems. 1. The activating spring has to be rigid enough to prevent the stock from folding accidenatlly, this makes activating the folder sightly difficult. 2. However, the spring isn't rigid enough to prevent the "squishy" feeling you get when the gun recoils. Basically you can feel the the gun shifting at the spring when you shoot it.The top folder is push button activated, which should prevent that "squishy" feeling. But I don't know how hard you have to push that button to activate it or how well it will hold up over time.I hope that helps. I've got the bottom one also (non push button) and decided to mount it so that the stock folds to the left side of the receiver. That actually enables me to keep my hand on the pistol grip and push up on the folding mechanism with that thumb in order disengage the mechanism to fold the stock. Pretty much operates like the amd 65 stock, but without the push button method. I get a very small amount of wobble when it's locked though. Just my 2cents but I have the old style folding mechanism - your picture #2, Don't care for it - will be removing it soon and just bolting my tromix direct to the gun. The reason I don't like it is the wiggle you get when you shoot with it. I have thought about drilling and tapping the bottom for a thumb screw to jam it. but realized for what its worth - I don't need a folder.I have heard good things about the push button - seems similar to the factory setup on my AMD65 abd tho I don't like the thin wire stock - it is solid.Good luck whichever way you go. Look forward to more of your build tutorials My primary gripe with the non push button system is that it unfolds much too easily. I've heard that the push button requires you to push the button to unfold as well. I had that folder on my S-12 and it didn't feel right. I decided to bolt the stock directly to the receiver on the shotty and never looked back.. I much prefer the s-12 that way. The amount of wobble seemed to be amplified a lot by heavier loads in a 12 gauge. I've got an amd 65 as well, and I ended up hating the wire stock and the inability to get a good cheek weld. I actually removed the rear trunnion and replaced it with a flat one from ak-builder that was drilled and tapped for Ace type stocks. I installed my Ace folder and a billet stock on the AMD and now I activate the folder like I did before, but it folds to the left now. On the rifle, this mechanism is much better than on my S-12. The wobble isn't really noticeable while shooting, although I would really like to replace it with a push button system, I just don't want to spend the extra money at the moment. I will say though, mine doesn't have as much play as some seem to have. If you really want to improve your AMD, you might want to look into it. Mine shoots like an entirely new rifle. I'll try to post some pics eventually. I haven't regretted losing the wire folder for a second.. and still have folding capability, plus a great cheek weld. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jclark45 0 Posted January 31, 2011 Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Any close up pics of the adapter that you dont cut the tang? I'm on the fence on cutting the tang..., how much longer does it make it when folded... None of these are mine, but these pics give you an idea of how it looks (awkward, IMO) and the added length: Awkward looking? Yes, a bit, and yes, it adds length, but my brother used one on a saiga 7.62x39 and I was impressed by how sturdy it is. Just work a bit to fit the shim screws right. I also was impressed that it locks tighter than other folders I have handled, so I'm going to go the same route with my Saiga-12. (The other advantage is that the current models accept a pistol grip on the base of the block, preventing you from having to do the full conversion if you're not ready for that yet, or not interested in doing it.) Edited January 31, 2011 by fezzik Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boba Debt 350 Posted January 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 31, 2011 The folder is a temporary fix until I get my SBS paper work approved. Once I cut it down I may remove the folder and bolt the stock directly to the adapter. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 Any close up pics of the adapter that you dont cut the tang? I'm on the fence on cutting the tang..., how much longer does it make it when folded... None of these are mine, but these pics give you an idea of how it looks (awkward, IMO) and the added length: Awkward looking? Yes, a bit, and yes, it adds length, but my brother used one on a saiga 7.62x39 and I was impressed by how sturdy it is. Just work a bit to fit the shim screws right. I also was impressed that it locks tighter than other folders I have handled, so I'm going to go the same route with my Saiga-12. (The other advantage is that the current models accept a pistol grip on the base of the block, preventing you from having to do the full conversion if you're not ready for that yet, or not interested in doing it.) Yeah, I'm not doubting the sturdiness of the setup. Just not for me, because as I said, it just looks too weird for my tastes. I have no problem doing conversions and have no sentimental attachment to the tang, so the extended adapter is not for me, personally. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted February 1, 2011 Report Share Posted February 1, 2011 And yet another option... This is a factory Romy with a Russian Grenade Launcher Pad and a custom welded cheekrest. Total cost, about $45. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boba Debt 350 Posted February 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 I received all of my parts today and it took about 30 minutes to do everything, including the paint. I was a bit disappointed to discover that you can not fire the gun with the stock folded to the right and if you flip the hinge upside down so that it folds to the left the hinge looks a bit odd. Oh well. I attached the DPH Stock directly to the Internal Adapter and it looks and feels awesome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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