Sold my AR

[Kliegl 304]

Mine never has, but then, I don't drag it through the shit either.

[ChileRelleno 7,071]

I love both my AR in 5.56 and my AK in 7.62x39, Pros & Cons for both rifles.

I can consistently bang steel (new 12" gong at our range ) all the day long at 400 yards with the AR... I can't do that with the AK.

And my .308/7.62x51 isn't going anywhere any time in the foreseeable future, same with the .22lr.

 

Different tools for different jobs.

[DLT 1,646]

Nothing wrong with ARs. I just wont buy one until "they" make an affordable one with a gas piston. You still cant beat Saigas IMHO.

 

Piston ARs have carrier tilt and the only benefit you get from the piston is with short gas systems not cooking your extractor. A midlength DI gun mitigates that issue by 80% and a rifle length mitigates it's entirely without tilting your carrier and gouging your upper until the BC won't enter the receiver extension.

 

The only piston AR that does not do this(and subsequently the only one I would own) would be the HK and only if someone gave it to me for free

Not sure what you mean by cooking the extractor? I agree that the reliability of the AR15 platform increases with the length of the gas tube. My first AR was a hybrid A2 lower and stock on a carbine upper and it completely sucked. Double feeds, fail to feeds, and jams up the wazzoo. Of course, it was not a chrome lined barrel, had no M4 feedramps and the inside of the bolt carrier was not chrome lined either. It only shot well when extremely wet or greased (gasp!). I sold that upper years ago and only recently replaced it with an A4 (20 inch) fluted barrel upper complete with new bolt carrier. The difference is AMAZING!. The rifle is now 100% reliable and I would trust my life on it. It's action is so amazingly smooth, that I am still shocked every time I take her to the range. And the accuracy is phenomenal. I still have a Colt carbine that has never given me problems, but hey, it's a Colt, and in the world of AR's, you get what you pay for if going carbine.

 

Now my Saiga's have been 100% reliable from day one. I own one in just about every caliber they make except 5.45. No problems there whatsoever, other than they can get hard to find from time to time. Just like now, it's almost impossible to find a Saiga 12.

[SOPMOD 254]

Nothing wrong with ARs. I just wont buy one until "they" make an affordable one with a gas piston. You still cant beat Saigas IMHO.

 

Piston ARs have carrier tilt and the only benefit you get from the piston is with short gas systems not cooking your extractor. A midlength DI gun mitigates that issue by 80% and a rifle length mitigates it's entirely without tilting your carrier and gouging your upper until the BC won't enter the receiver extension.

 

The only piston AR that does not do this(and subsequently the only one I would own) would be the HK and only if someone gave it to me for free

Not sure what you mean by cooking the extractor?

 

There are 3 primary issues addressed by changing a DI gas system to piston and in order of statistical relevance they are.

 

1.Extractor failure(this includes extractor pin and spring). The extractor assembly gets huge doses of hot gas that never gets a chance to cool in carbine length weapons and the primary fault of DI M16s in the military are FTEs caused by this accelerated heat induced weakness. You can take an M16 extractor spring, hold it with a pair of needlenose pliers and heat it up with a bic lighter and reinstall it in the bolt and watch a previously reliable weapon have consistent FTEs. This can happen from a single incident of prolonged full-auto or rapid fire or cumulatively from repeated thermal cycles of much lower intensity.

 

2.Gas port erosion.On carbine length DI rifles the gas pressure and heat are tapped much closer to the chamber and this causes a massive increase in pressure and temperature through the gas port and because DI guns require a precise volume,pressure and speed of gas to operate reliably the gas port hole being blow torched larger by gases so close to the chamber will mess up the dwell time and cause malfunctions.Pistons mitigate this by mechanically restricting the speed at which these blow torch gases pass through the gas port via the piston being a physical barrier to continuous high pressure gases.

 

3.System fouling. the DI rifle "shits where it eats" and can build up enough residue to make already tight tolerances in the bolt barrel extension juncture too tight and thereby cause malfunctions as well as residue interfering with clearances in the extractor and firing pin recesses.

 

 

Of all of these the primary weakness that the military keeps throwing money and COTS parts at is the BBQ that is happening on an M4s extractor. 20in rifles do not have this problem because the gases have the time to cool and the gas tube is long enough to compensate for this as well as tapping the gas much further from the chamber where they are much cooler and much less violent as they pass through the gas port.

 

 

The military can live with a dirty gun by enforcing maintenance procedures and they can even live with the gas port erosion because it takes at least 3000rds of hard full auto use to rear it's ugly head but failures to extract due to thermal stress on extractor springs,pins and extractors themselves can take an M4(or any carbine length DI gas system) out in a single incident of heavy use.

 

Extractors and pins get softer every time you heat them up(or worse they get hard and brittle from forced rapid cooling in wet environments and will shatter) and the springs are literally the thinnest piece of tempered wire and will lose all of their resistance if the temper is messed with(say by piping hot gases directly down a tube and carrier key right onto the bolt).

 

there, that is my explanation for the phrase "cooking extractors".

[MT Predator 2,294]

Except that it is not as reliable as an AK. That ruins it for serious purposes IMHO. My wife likes her AK74.

 

(Probably someone will chime in about how their AR has never malfunctioned, but I see it at the range all the time with other shooters).

Chiming in to report no weapon related malfunctions with any of mine. The military kind of burned weapons maintainence into my brain taking care of that platform. Most problems people have with them are a result of a dry weapon. ARs are like women, they run better wet. Lube it generously, fire the shit out of it, repeat.

BTW, I won't give up one particular weapon (AR) just to have a different one (AK) and vice versa. Two different tools for my toolbox IMO.

[sjgusmc21 850]

Except that it is not as reliable as an AK. That ruins it for serious purposes IMHO. My wife likes her AK74.

 

(Probably someone will chime in about how their AR has never malfunctioned, but I see it at the range all the time with other shooters).

Chiming in to report no weapon related malfunctions with any of mine. The military kind of burned weapons maintainence into my brain taking care of that platform. Most problems people have with them are a result of a dry weapon. ARs are like women, they run better wet. Lube it generously, fire the shit out of it, repeat.

BTW, I won't give up one particular weapon (AR) just to have a different one (AK) and vice versa. Two different tools for my toolbox IMO.

 

Concur. I built mine and have never had a malfunction. I love both of them, and both have their own uses. Lube goes a long way......

[jimdigriz 580]

Except that it is not as reliable as an AK. That ruins it for serious purposes IMHO. My wife likes her AK74.

 

(Probably someone will chime in about how their AR has never malfunctioned, but I see it at the range all the time with other shooters).

Chiming in to report no weapon related malfunctions with any of mine. The military kind of burned weapons maintainence into my brain taking care of that platform. Most problems people have with them are a result of a dry weapon. ARs are like women, they run better wet. Lube it generously, fire the shit out of it, repeat.

BTW, I won't give up one particular weapon (AR) just to have a different one (AK) and vice versa. Two different tools for my toolbox IMO.

 

For those willing to give lots of TLC to their weapons, an AR can be a fine weapon, no doubt.

[redfish28 50]

Love my 74. Love my piston ar15. I trust both 100%. I treat the ar15 no better than the 74. I believe the piston platforms have come a long way since they first hit the scene. In my experience technology has made carrier tilt a non issue. I have had zero malfunctions of any kind. Now I do think that there are more parts on the 15, so I tend to like the 74 for simplicity. All I'm saying is the piston ARs are getting better each year. Don't discount them. I believe in piratical accuracy, but when I hunt or want to kill critters a believe in a different kind of accuracy. That's why I still like an AR platform. Honestly, like I said I love them both though . Wish I had more of each.

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

Nothing wrong with ARs. I just wont buy one until "they" make an affordable one with a gas piston. You still cant beat Saigas IMHO.

 

Piston ARs have carrier tilt and the only benefit you get from the piston is with short gas systems not cooking your extractor. A midlength DI gun mitigates that issue by 80% and a rifle length mitigates it's entirely without tilting your carrier and gouging your upper until the BC won't enter the receiver extension.

 

The only piston AR that does not do this(and subsequently the only one I would own) would be the HK and only if someone gave it to me for free

Not sure what you mean by cooking the extractor?

 

There are 3 primary issues addressed by changing a DI gas system to piston and in order of statistical relevance they are.

 

1.Extractor failure(this includes extractor pin and spring). The extractor assembly gets huge doses of hot gas that never gets a chance to cool in carbine length weapons and the primary fault of DI M16s in the military are FTEs caused by this accelerated heat induced weakness. You can take an M16 extractor spring, hold it with a pair of needlenose pliers and heat it up with a bic lighter and reinstall it in the bolt and watch a previously reliable weapon have consistent FTEs. This can happen from a single incident of prolonged full-auto or rapid fire or cumulatively from repeated thermal cycles of much lower intensity.

 

2.Gas port erosion.On carbine length DI rifles the gas pressure and heat are tapped much closer to the chamber and this causes a massive increase in pressure and temperature through the gas port and because DI guns require a precise volume,pressure and speed of gas to operate reliably the gas port hole being blow torched larger by gases so close to the chamber will mess up the dwell time and cause malfunctions.Pistons mitigate this by mechanically restricting the speed at which these blow torch gases pass through the gas port via the piston being a physical barrier to continuous high pressure gases.

 

3.System fouling. the DI rifle "shits where it eats" and can build up enough residue to make already tight tolerances in the bolt barrel extension juncture too tight and thereby cause malfunctions as well as residue interfering with clearances in the extractor and firing pin recesses.

 

 

Of all of these the primary weakness that the military keeps throwing money and COTS parts at is the BBQ that is happening on an M4s extractor. 20in rifles do not have this problem because the gases have the time to cool and the gas tube is long enough to compensate for this as well as tapping the gas much further from the chamber where they are much cooler and much less violent as they pass through the gas port.

 

 

The military can live with a dirty gun by enforcing maintenance procedures and they can even live with the gas port erosion because it takes at least 3000rds of hard full auto use to rear it's ugly head but failures to extract due to thermal stress on extractor springs,pins and extractors themselves can take an M4(or any carbine length DI gas system) out in a single incident of heavy use.

 

Extractors and pins get softer every time you heat them up(or worse they get hard and brittle from forced rapid cooling in wet environments and will shatter) and the springs are literally the thinnest piece of tempered wire and will lose all of their resistance if the temper is messed with(say by piping hot gases directly down a tube and carrier key right onto the bolt).

 

there, that is my explanation for the phrase "cooking extractors".

Regarding Carrier Tilt, I have an Adams Arms system and there is no carrier tilt whatsoever - several other makers have remedied this problem as well. The Adam's BCG has "skis" on the bottom to allow for smooth cycling without an off center motion that skids on the buffer tube (not ideal, but less than catastrophic).

 

If you shoot brass, the brass will actually clean your chamber with every round as carbon sticks to the brass and then ejects out. I shoot suppressed with both a piston and DI, and they are both really dirty because of the blowback into the chamber. The amount of carbon on the ejected cases is significant, yet the chamber still feeds because it is not cumulative due to most of the crap sticking to the brass.

 

The vast majority of problems that people have with any platform is when dumping a large quantity of rounds in a very short period (like the ejector problem). The standard M4 has a 3 round burst in lieu of full auto to conserve ammunition and lower the overall rate of fire. The M240B and M249 are the suppressive fire guns, not the M4. Most M4 carrying troops don't carry more than 6 magazines or 180 rounds at a time. They also don't carry extra barrels to accommodate prolonged suppressive fire because that is not their purpose. I don't understand why everyone still wants to judge M4's with the same criteria as suppressive fire systems.

 

I own multiple AK's and only 2 AR's. One AR lower is registered as an SBR in 7 different calibers and allows me to switch calibers and/or barrel lengths/optics/sighting platforms quickly. The AK's are excellent reliable workhorses with cheap effective ammo. Both are excellent systems and have proven their effectiveness with well over 50 years of combat service in some of the world's most advanced and proficient militaries.

[redfish28 50]

BuffetDestroyer,

 

I too own the Adams Arms Kit, and I never experienced carrier tilt. Like I stated before, the system just plain runs. I don't have to use a ton of lube and clean up is a snap. I run the kit hard and show no ill signs from doing so.

[jrance@iacwds.com 716]

and the beat goes on.................

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/search.php?media=video&terms=Top+Ten+Combat+Rifles

Top Ten Combat Rifles according to Military Channel. Just another opinion...no undue credence given to them,

AK-47 ranked Number 1

M-16, M-4, AR-15 et al ranked Number 2

 

I use these and many other platforms and enjoy/trust them all. Sounds like another mine is bigger than yours contest. Enjoy. I treat all my weapons as if I had to pay for them (clean & inspect).

 

1911

[MT Predator 2,294]

Except that it is not as reliable as an AK. That ruins it for serious purposes IMHO. My wife likes her AK74.

 

(Probably someone will chime in about how their AR has never malfunctioned, but I see it at the range all the time with other shooters).

Chiming in to report no weapon related malfunctions with any of mine. The military kind of burned weapons maintainence into my brain taking care of that platform. Most problems people have with them are a result of a dry weapon. ARs are like women, they run better wet. Lube it generously, fire the shit out of it, repeat.

BTW, I won't give up one particular weapon (AR) just to have a different one (AK) and vice versa. Two different tools for my toolbox IMO.

 

For those willing to give lots of TLC to their weapons, an AR can be a fine weapon, no doubt.

Sure an AK can handle some crap in the action and cycle dry. Those who choose not to lube an AK are just promoting premature wear and tear on it. An AR will run fine even dirty with lubrication. You may have a black mess dripping out of it, (carbon and lube), but it will still run. Our guys in the field over in the box are not detail cleaning their weapon all the time. They are giving them a good CLP bath when they can't though. Not exactly TLC.

[MT Predator 2,294]

FWIW, an example of what I was talking about above.

A few years ago, six of us went to a class with good old military carbines. We shot up a little over 27,000 rounds in five days. With that much firing, we didn't have time to clean weapons, rather doused them in Breakfree every day. Everything ran fine and part of the course of fire involved full auto fire as well.

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Except that it is not as reliable as an AK. That ruins it for serious purposes IMHO. My wife likes her AK74.

 

(Probably someone will chime in about how their AR has never malfunctioned, but I see it at the range all the time with other shooters).

Chiming in to report no weapon related malfunctions with any of mine. The military kind of burned weapons maintainence into my brain taking care of that platform. Most problems people have with them are a result of a dry weapon. ARs are like women, they run better wet. Lube it generously, fire the shit out of it, repeat.

BTW, I won't give up one particular weapon (AR) just to have a different one (AK) and vice versa. Two different tools for my toolbox IMO.

 

For those willing to give lots of TLC to their weapons, an AR can be a fine weapon, no doubt.

Sure an AK can handle some crap in the action and cycle dry. Those who choose not to lube an AK are just promoting premature wear and tear on it. An AR will run fine even dirty with lubrication. You may have a black mess dripping out of it, (carbon and lube), but it will still run. Our guys in the field over in the box are not detail cleaning their weapon all the time. They are giving them a good CLP bath when they can't though. Not exactly TLC.

 

+1!

 

Last I heard, the "Filthy 14" (A BCM rifle that Pat Rogers has been running for a long time now) is up to over 40K rounds with minimal cleaning. Just re-oiling the bolt when needed. That's the thing, when you have quality components like BCM, reliability isn't an issue. Given the high amount of rounds through that particular AR, and how many times it's been cleaned, I'd venture to say that it's cleaning-to-rounds fired ratio is FAR less than what the average shooter does to their AK.

 

As for seeing other people at the range with AR's crapping out......my guess is they're POS rifles to begin with. Not necessarily a testament to the platform itself. Hell, if I were to go on what I saw at the range with other people's rifles, I'd come to the conclusion that an AK can't hit shit. Because I've lost count on how many times I've seen people with unGodly horrible accuracy with an AK in their hands. But we all know that's not a testament to the platform.

 

I love my AK's and AR's. If they had vaginas, I'd have an orgy with all of them.

[Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393]

Thank god i sold my AR-15 last night, from now on I'm doing only Russian weapons.

 

You've taken your first step into a much larger world, young Skywalker

 

Which Saiga are you going to get first?

[sjgusmc21 850]

Last I heard, the "Filthy 14" (A BCM rifle that Pat Rogers has been running for a long time now) is up to over 40K rounds with minimal cleaning. Just re-oiling the bolt when needed. That's the thing, when you have quality components like BCM, reliability isn't an issue. Given the high amount of rounds through that particular AR, and how many times it's been cleaned, I'd venture to say that it's cleaning-to-rounds fired ratio is FAR less than what the average shooter does to their AK.

 

As for seeing other people at the range with AR's crapping out......my guess is they're POS rifles to begin with. Not necessarily a testament to the platform itself. Hell, if I were to go on what I saw at the range with other people's rifles, I'd come to the conclusion that an AK can't hit shit. Because I've lost count on how many times I've seen people with unGodly horrible accuracy with an AK in their hands. But we all know that's not a testament to the platform.

 

I love my AK's and AR's. If they had vaginas, I'd have an orgy with all of them.

 

Well said. Any weapon will only be as accurate as the 'dope' behind the sights. As for the orgy.....well now, there is food for thought!

[YARP 300]

I love both my AR in 5.56 and my AK in 7.62x39, Pros & Cons for both rifles.

I can consistently bang steel (new 12" gong at our range ) all the day long at 400 yards with the AR... I can't do that with the AK.

And my .308/7.62x51 isn't going anywhere any time in the foreseeable future, same with the .22lr.

 

Different tools for different jobs.

 

 

Except that it is not as reliable as an AK. That ruins it for serious purposes IMHO. My wife likes her AK74.

 

(Probably someone will chime in about how their AR has never malfunctioned, but I see it at the range all the time with other shooters).

Chiming in to report no weapon related malfunctions with any of mine. The military kind of burned weapons maintainence into my brain taking care of that platform. Most problems people have with them are a result of a dry weapon. ARs are like women, they run better wet. Lube it generously, fire the shit out of it, repeat.

BTW, I won't give up one particular weapon (AR) just to have a different one (AK) and vice versa. Two different tools for my toolbox IMO.

 

Solid points. I ran away from the AR platform for years, then I realized I was just running from the caliber. The days of people saying that an AR is bound to fail are probably never going to end, the honest to gods truth is that major technological advances have been made. The claims that were made during the Vietnam era are still toted around today like nothing has changed, but the truth is things have. Comparing an AK to an AR is like comparing goats to sheep........different animals.

 

I truly hope the OP is going to have a blast (no pun intended) with his new Saiga!

Did you get a x39 or x51?

[22_Shooter 1,560]

The days of people saying that an AR is bound to fail are probably never going to end, the honest to gods truth is that major technological advances have been made. The claims that were made during the Vietnam era are still toted around today like nothing has changed, but the truth is things have.

 

Huge +1.

 

I'll never understand why people still bring up the Vietnam/M16 era when trying to demerit the platform. (I haven't seen it in this thread, but I have seen it from other members on this board in other AR threads here)

[baraban7.62 20]

Thank god i sold my AR-15 last night, from now on I'm doing only Russian weapons.

 

You've taken your first step into a much larger world, young Skywalker

 

Which Saiga are you going to get first?

 

I have already posted a few posts about my Saiga 7.62 that i'm converting to AKM, did the pistol grip, now changing out the FSB, Gas block and putting on the lower hand guard retainer, waiting to get it back from gun smith, as soon as i get it back, imma put a 14x1 LH thread on and put a slant break on, than maybe i'll get a ribbed cover for it to give it the last authentic looking piece

[GREYLUPO 358]

Heres what I think, piston ARs and other piston rifles are the future

[SOPMOD 254]

The days of people saying that an AR is bound to fail are probably never going to end, the honest to gods truth is that major technological advances have been made. The claims that were made during the Vietnam era are still toted around today like nothing has changed, but the truth is things have.

 

Huge +1.

 

I'll never understand why people still bring up the Vietnam/M16 era when trying to demerit the platform. (I haven't seen it in this thread, but I have seen it from other members on this board in other AR threads here)

 

 

 

Vietnam my ass, Ranger School circa RIGHT NOW! Barrel fell the fuck off!

Edited February 15, 2011 by SOPMOD

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Heres what I think, piston ARs and other piston rifles are the future

 

Maybe other piston rifles, but not piston AR's, IMO.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

I'll chime in with that statement - my AR has never jammed, in approximately 700 rounds since it was purchased new. It has also never gone through 200 rounds without being thoroughly cleaned.

 

My first AK, however, went through more than 2,000 rounds before I first cleaned it - and I bought this gun used, uncleaned. And it has been fired many more times since then, to this day without a jam.

[MT Predator 2,294]

2

Vietnam my ass, Ranger School circa RIGHT NOW! Barrel fell the fuck off!

I know many will argue That AK will stand up to more abuse, however, those training weapons Ranger and other schools use are abused pretty bad. I've spent plenty of time training and conducting joint Airborne ops with the 6th Ranger Training Battalion here in FL. Those students could break a bowling ball! I'm sure they could do a number on any weapon. I know the S4 Officer out there who is in charge of the weapons and ammo issue. I'm sure he could dig up photos of M-240s, M-249s equally fucked up.

[redfish28 50]

2

Vietnam my ass, Ranger School circa RIGHT NOW! Barrel fell the fuck off!

I know many will argue That AK will stand up to more abuse, however, those training weapons Ranger and other schools use are abused pretty bad. I've spent plenty of time training and conducting joint Airborne ops with the 6th Ranger Training Battalion here in FL. Those students could break a bowling ball! I'm sure they could do a number on any weapon. I know the S4 Officer out there who is in charge of the weapons and ammo issue. I'm sure he could dig up photos of M-240s, M-249s equally fuc

ked up.

 

 

+1, and we have all seen AKs that have had catastrophic failures. They are both machines. They can break. To not do the proper maintenance on any weapon, and then treat it like trash, and expect it to safe your life is not smart. Its like driving my truck and never getting an oil change. Wont go far doing that.

[SOPMOD 254]

You guys sound like a bunch of Poindexters making excuses for your 300lb cross eyed prom dates,lol

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGabL8fpRW4

 

I don't think the Taliban are doing Tap Rack Bang to get their weapons to work, do you?

 

If you get a catastrophic failure with an AK it's either excessive headspace or bad ammo with pulverized powder and for the record an AKM with in spec steel cased ammo can run 8 thousandths out and not blow up in your face like an M16 in the same condition.

Edited February 15, 2011 by SOPMOD

[BuffetDestroyer 969]

You guys sound like a bunch of Poindexters making excuses for your 300lb cross eyed prom dates,lol

 

I don't think the Taliban are doing Tap Rack Bang to get their weapons to work, do you?

 

If you get a catastrophic failure with an AK it's either excessive headspace or bad ammo with pulverized powder and for the record an AKM with in spec steel cased ammo can run 8 thousandths out and not blow up in your face like an M16 in the same condition.

 

If you don't like AR's, don't buy one! Petition the military and Congress to adopt the AK because all AR's blow up in your face and don't work because of hot extractors!

 

P.S., don't buy out of spec ammo like Allah Akhbar here:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMXKo8fySrg

Edited February 15, 2011 by BuffetDestroyer

[GREYLUPO 358]

You guys sound like a bunch of Poindexters making excuses for your 300lb cross eyed prom dates,lol

 

I don't think the Taliban are doing Tap Rack Bang to get their weapons to work, do you?

 

If you get a catastrophic failure with an AK it's either excessive headspace or bad ammo with pulverized powder and for the record an AKM with in spec steel cased ammo can run 8 thousandths out and not blow up in your face like an M16 in the same condition.

 

If you don't like AR's, don't buy one! Petition the military and Congress to adopt the AK because all AR's blow up in your face and don't work because of hot extractors!

 

P.S., don't buy out of spec ammo like Allah Akhbar here:

 

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=pMXKo8fySrg

 

 

LOL! I like how he was a bad ass in the beginning but then when it blows he did his lil gay move and looked like he was about to cry.

[RobRez 1,895]

I switched years ago. Sure there are perfectly reliable ARs but they all have "Top Notch" parts. So for the price of what...6 Saiga 7.62x39 rifles I can have ONE reliable AR.....Hmmmmm. Or 1 Saiga 7.62 and about uh...6000 rounds of ammo??? No brainer to me.

[GREYLUPO 358]

I wonder which one of his terror buddies decided to upload it to youtube