socom688 217 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) The movie theater incident has me rethinking a carry pistol idea. I am thinking of adding the Five-seveN to my collection of concealed carry-ables. I know the ammo isn't cheap, and Five-seveN is expensive too, but how much body armor can the round pierce? I found this: " It can pierce the older U.S. Army PASGT vest at 300 meters range, and a U.S. Army PASGT helmet at 240 meters". I am guessing both the aforementioned vest and helmet are "soft" armor, and not plated? Can it pierce plated armor? Edited July 21, 2012 by socom688 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
haugpatr 972 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 What about 7.62x25? It has some capabilities and the ammo is cheap. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 What about 7.62x25? It has some capabilities and the ammo is cheap. Honestly, I haven't thought about that. According to my wikipedia research skills, "can easily defeat lighter ballistic vests (class I, IIA and II) as well as some kevlar helmets, such as the American PASGT helmet." So it is not quite as good at piercing armor as the 5.7, but will still penetrate kevlar soft armor, correct? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
unclejake 428 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 The 7.62x25 is a very good round and underappreciated! I don't know what it will and will not penetrate, but I bet that it wouls take on just about any soft armor, such as his throat protector, the groin armor (unless it was a ceramic plate. I wish that one of the American companies would offer one of their newer compact concealed carry pistols in this caliber!! I would buy one in a minute!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 5.7x28 armor piercing is impossible to buy on the civilian market. The ammo you see for sale in this caliber is the standard blue-tip "sporting round" and it does not possess the same AP capability as the round you are referring to... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shandlanos 1,470 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 In terms of 5.7x28, the best you can do as a civvie is the stuff Elite Ammunition produces - they sell a high-powered FMJ, costs about $1 a round. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Man Out 1,283 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Some thoughts; People are thinking of the recent mass shooting and ways to prevent it. The premise of this thread is to determine what will pop through armor. Ain't gonna happen = All LEO's wear armor daily. Civvies are prevented from buying effective ammo that can off police. Anyway, I would suggest putting the money into more shooting -- get better at shot placement. Even a couple .45 rounds in the "K" zone of a perp wearing the best armor will knock them down and put them out of the fight for a bit, Time enough to close the gap and take care of biz if needs be. It's all about shot placement, even a tank round ain't crap if you miss... 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Some thoughts; People are thinking of the recent mass shooting and ways to prevent it. The premise of this thread is to determine what will pop through armor. Ain't gonna happen = All LEO's wear armor daily. Civvies are prevented from buying effective ammo that can off police. Anyway, I would suggest putting the money into more shooting -- get better at shot placement. Even a couple .45 rounds in the "K" zone of a perp wearing the best armor will knock them down and put them out of the fight for a bit, Time enough to close the gap and take care of biz if needs be. It's all about shot placement, even a tank round ain't crap if you miss... Well not to split hairs odd man, but we certainly can buy ammo that pierces armor. I don't know about you, but my WASR 10 would make short work of a perp in soft armor . Also the 5.7 rounds we can buy do penetrate police issued soft armor vests, but as mentioned they are expensive. I was just seeing if they piece plated because I have no idea if there are varying degrees of plated armor. Obviously the stuff our buys are using as plates armor in the sandbox stop 7.62x54r rounds, so obviously not that stuff. I agree with you saying its about shot placement. But I firmly believe until I have experienced a chaotic situation first hand, a crazy as hell situation like in that theater, I doubt I would get any sort of decent shot off, and I am a pretty damn good shot with my concealed carry guns. There were just too many factors and perhaps could have been brain overload... Just being realistic here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zenman223 460 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 I was just over on the FNH forum yesterday reading up on the MPA 5.7 pistol as an alternative to the FNH 5.7(unrelated to this incident, just been wanting a 5.7) and apparently federal american eagle is making a TMJ 5.7 bullet. I read more than a few complaints about the price of ammo and availability of decent ammo. According to those guys FN is purposely watering down the civilian ammo more and more. Some even seem to think the 5.7 caliber is going to go away eventually due to lack of support. I would like a pistol chamered in 5.7 but right now its not gonna happen until better ammo options become available. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 I was just over on the FNH forum yesterday reading up on the MPA 5.7 pistol as an alternative to the FNH 5.7(unrelated to this incident, just been wanting a 5.7) and apparently federal american eagle is making a TMJ 5.7 bullet. I read more than a few complaints about the price of ammo and availability of decent ammo. According to those guys FN is purposely watering down the civilian ammo more and more. Some even seem to think the 5.7 caliber is going to go away eventually due to lack of support. I would like a pistol chamered in 5.7 but right now its not gonna happen until better ammo options become available. Thanks big J for the info. I'll look into getting a 7.62x25 gun like a Tokarev Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mgconnor13 206 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 (edited) Even if some one is wearing soft armor you hit them with something heavy enough you can break ribs and rupture organs even without penetration. Simplest was to put some one down wearing armor is to shoot them in the groin/hip, through the arm pit or the face. Armor is just an insurance policy not a guarantee. Shoot placement is more important then caliber. 7.62x25mm is a nasty little round and worth looking into. I'd look into some of the larger revolver calibers if you want a wheel gun. You could also look into 357 sig as an option too if you want a semi auto. A 223 pistol with M855 is also an something to consider. If your in your car just hit them. Some how I think a lawyer is going to have a harder case to make against you if a gunmen ends up under your truck then if you filled them with lead, not the mention 2 tons of steel will do more damage then half an ounce of lead if you drive fast enough. Edited July 21, 2012 by Rusty truck 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 How much armor can the FN 5.7x28mm round pierce? ...or, more importantly..... Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 if you want some of the "good" 5.7 ammo that was banned a while back, check gun broker. ive seen several batches not long ago. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
timy 1,185 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari? I was thinking exactly the same thing. Only in English, of course. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Odd Man Out 1,283 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 I firmly believe until I have experienced a chaotic situation first hand, a crazy as hell situation like in that theater, I doubt I would get any sort of decent shot off, and I am a pretty damn good shot with my concealed carry guns. There were just too many factors and perhaps could have been brain overload... Just being realistic here. If I may toss in a bit more realism -- So, with all the chaos and the degrading of skills with the influx of fear/adrenalin, you are hunting for a round with better penetration capabilities to be used in a crowded sit??? Bad idea... 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Encountering an active shooter with body armor can happen... but the odds are astronomical. By trying to go to a handgun and round that are effective against body armor you're giving up the effectiveness of expanding self-defense ammunition for which it is the best choice in 99.99% of possible shootings scenarios. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 I firmly believe until I have experienced a chaotic situation first hand, a crazy as hell situation like in that theater, I doubt I would get any sort of decent shot off, and I am a pretty damn good shot with my concealed carry guns. There were just too many factors and perhaps could have been brain overload... Just being realistic here. If I may toss in a bit more realism -- So, with all the chaos and the degrading of skills with the influx of fear/adrenalin, you are hunting for a round with better penetration capabilities to be used in a crowded sit??? Bad idea... Not this exact situation in particular. It would be nice to know that even if a psychotic asshat POS wearing body armor tried to take my life or the lives of innocent people around me, I would be able to turn his organs into swiss cheese. No way I would be shooting into a crowd trying to take out the perp, I would only shoot if I got a clear beat. And obtaining a beat anywhere on the torso is much easier than a HS in that kinda hectic situation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
socom688 217 Posted July 21, 2012 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Encountering an active shooter with body armor can happen... but the odds are astronomical. By trying to go to a handgun and round that are effective against body armor you're giving up the effectiveness of expanding self-defense ammunition for which it is the best choice in 99.99% of possible shootings scenarios. Good point. My daily concealed carry weapon is my LCP, and I figure for most any situations I may run into, it would work just fine. I still would like maybe a 7.62x28 Tokarev. The more I read about it, the more I want it. Its cheaper, will penetrate soft armor, and wont over penetrate as much as a 5.7 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 If it were me, I'd be more interested in capacity for a carry gun rather than penetration in regards to defending against a body-armored active shooter. A good double stack pistol, 12-20 rounds of either 9mm/.40/.45 cal plus a reload gives you the firepower needed to lay into an armored foe until you either defeat the armor or get in around the edges (head/neck/arms/groin). 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 And then there is this issue with the FN 5.7.... http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012/02/27/fn-five-seven-kaboom/ 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 And then there is this issue with the FN 5.7.... http://www.thefirear...e-seven-kaboom/ Only an issue if you reload. FNH strongly discourages reloading for the 5.7 as the margin for error regarding peak pressures are very small. This guy admits to shooting handloads prior to his kaboom and I suspect that it was, in fact, a handload that caused it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 most kabooms are from human error. but that still looked painful. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 Being able to penetrate a kevlar vest isn't exactly "armor piercing", is it? Is kevlar considered "armor"? Honest question. That being said............if a bad guy decides to throw some trauma plates into the mix, I don't think 5.7 is going to penetrate it. Admittedly, I'm no expert on the issue, though. I do know that the 5.7's penetrating abilities have always been hyped up by things like the Brady campaign stating that all 5.7 is "armor piercing". 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 good point shooter. the type of "armor" is the question..most soft armor, even level III wont stop a small rifle round, but should stop up to a .44 mag handgun round. but that doesnt mean it wont destroy your organs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jpanzer 1,265 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 ANY rifle round will go through a soft vest like a hot knife through butter, regardless of its NIJ rating. Concussive effects from soft armor actually stopping a pistol round or a slug can cause internal trauma and break bones, and if a 12 gauge slug is stopped at short distances it can even cause internal organs to rupture, depending of course on where it hits the torso. To stop rifle rounds you need a set of hard plates, and these have to be backed by a soft trauma plate to minimize the internal damage I previously mentioned. A good site to look at the penetration capability of various firearms is The Box O Truth... http://www.theboxotruth.com/ 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
thebuns1 4,323 Posted July 21, 2012 Report Share Posted July 21, 2012 well put panzer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Concussive effects from soft armor actually stopping a pistol round or a slug can cause internal trauma and break bones, and if a 12 gauge slug is stopped at short distances it can even cause internal organs to rupture, depending of course on where it hits the torso. Truth be told, I'd rather take a pistol round to the chest with no vest than a 12 gauge slug to the chest with one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 If it were me, I'd be more interested in capacity for a carry gun rather than penetration in regards to defending against a body-armored active shooter. A good double stack pistol, 12-20 rounds of either 9mm/.40/.45 cal plus a reload gives you the firepower needed to lay into an armored foe until you either defeat the armor or get in around the edges (head/neck/arms/groin). EXACTLY! You may not defeat the armor if he has SAPIs or ESAPIs. If the shooter doesn't go down with a controlled pair, then you put the third in his brain bucket. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Zambidis 90 Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 If that 5.7 kaboom is the one that made rounds on a number of forums a while back, IIRC the guy finally admitted to it being a double charge. Double charges are an issue with just about all guns nothing unique there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shotgun12 205 Posted July 22, 2012 Report Share Posted July 22, 2012 Conceal Carry a Draco Pistol if you are worried about gunman with body armor but i would just suggest carrying a compact .45 ACP. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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