Canted Top Cover, and warrantee issues

[ec4321 113]

Worst case scenario, You buy a $12-20 stick of aluminum rail, drill out the rivets for the plastic rail, and carefully locate your own.

 

I think that's over simplifying it by a great deal. It needs to be radius cut on the bottom, anodized, and it is mounted to a hinge up front to keep it centered and secured there - there's going to be quite a bit involved to do it right.

[Lord Ak-47 49]

Mine looks to be straight. Maybe a millimeter or two cant, but maybe I am more forgiving of a rail on a shotgun dustover.

[randyf 35]

There is no excuse for guns being shipped out with canted or misaligned or defective parts. That being said I would hope that anyone who is having these issues is also contacting the retailer or importer directly to see how this can be resolved. Posting to a forum is good to inform other potential buyers of this situation, but you shouldn't expect resolution without direct contact to the parties involved. I am curious to see how they handle this.

 

On another note I see a lot of people complaining about the price and expecting pure perfection for there money. I do agree ANY product regardless of price should look and function as advertised out of the box otherwise should be made to do so by the parties responsible. I think we also need to remember that NO mass manufacturing process is 100% perfect 100% of the time. Even a Bentley dealership has a service department. Hopefully those who have issues with there rails being canted will receive the repairs or refunds they are owed in a timely fashion.

Good luck all.

 

"the parties involved. I am curious to see how they handle this."

 

Yes... And it would be good to here from some of the parties involed... they have been posting info here on this forum fairly often thus far. It seems like it will look.... shall we say kinda funny if they were to get quiet sudenly.

[oOghostriderOo 14]

Has anyone contacted the retailer or distributor directly?

[chevyman097 2,579]

Has anyone contacted the retailer or distributor directly?

 

As I posted before. I have contacted Classic arms where I purchased mine and they said they have not had any complaints yet. I will have my rifle tomorrow I hope and I will post what I find. Im guessing maybe it is just a small lot that has the canted rails. Just a guess. Maybe vodka specials though.

[oOghostriderOo 14]

Has anyone contacted the retailer or distributor directly?

 

As I posted before. I have contacted Classic arms where I purchased mine and they said they have not had any complaints yet. I will have my rifle tomorrow I hope and I will post what I find. Im guessing maybe it is just a small lot that has the canted rails. Just a guess. Maybe vodka specials though.

 

Sorry for the confusion Chevyman, I meant has anyone with a canted rail tried to see what the retailer or importer will do to remedy this situation?

[Paulyski 2,227]

S-12 - $630 + background check & transfer fees

Basic conversion kit - $140.00

Dinzag RSB option - $250.00

Dinzag lower handguard retainer - $50.00

type 030 gas block - $130.00

Custom op-rod - likely over $100.00 to have machined

JTE magwell - $100.00

 

Okay... Now we haven't even gotten to the foregrip, hinging the dust cover, a rail for the dust cover, tuning the weapon, or 1 red cent of labor costs & we've already broken $1400.00....

 

Vepr-12 - $999.99 + $18.00 handling + $15.00 shipping + $25.00 transfer, total, $1058.00

 

I think fixing a canted rail's not exactly the end of the world, all things considered.

 

It's all in what one's looking for I guess.

The S-12 is cheaper to get in the door on, but works out to more in the end if going for the same end result.

[PapaZorro 401]

S-12 - $630 + background check & transfer fees

Basic conversion kit - $140.00

Dinzag RSB option - $250.00

Dinzag lower handguard retainer - $50.00

type 030 gas block - $130.00

Custom op-rod - likely over $100.00 to have machined

JTE magwell - $100.00

 

Okay... Now we haven't even gotten to the foregrip, hinging the dust cover, a rail for the dust cover, tuning the weapon, or 1 red cent of labor costs & we've already broken $1400.00....

 

Vepr-12 - $999.99 + $18.00 handling + $15.00 shipping + $25.00 transfer, total, $1058.00

 

I think fixing a canted rail's not exactly the end of the world, all things considered.

 

It's all in what one's looking for I guess.

The S-12 is cheaper to get in the door on, but works out to more in the end if going for the same end result.

How Verp-12 cost in US (that is include import/export tax, shipping and profit of the seller) the same or cheaper then in Russia where the price is 1000-1500 USD depends of the seller?

 

The first rails were made from stell, was heavy and very expensive, for mass production Molot & IZMASH change them to plastic, and they could not make 100% QC of making them straight, due to tech proc . Russian customers also don't like canted rails. Molot designed Al railed dust cover that is made by their partner Molot Arms, and cost exta hundred bucks or more, for people need 100 % perfect look like gun.

 

To compare mass production and custom prod IMHO is similar to compare land Rover Deffender and Ferrari Enco, even then Everybody wans to buy Ferrari for the price of Deffender.

 

[hdskumm 39]

...and they could not make 100% QC of making them straight, due to tech proc.

Vodka... I knew it

Edited November 1, 2012 by hdskumm

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

The S-12 is cheaper to get in the door on, but works out to more in the end if going for the same end result.

 

That is why I went with the VEPR and am happy I did. My rail is straight and the weapon shoots like a champ, eating everything it gets fed. The cost is lower in my mind than taking a S12 to the same configuration. I would have happily paid more if it had a left side charging handle, metal rail etc.

[rs51085 136]

The S-12 is cheaper to get in the door on, but works out to more in the end if going for the same end result.

 

That is why I went with the VEPR and am happy I did. My rail is straight and the weapon shoots like a champ, eating everything it gets fed. The cost is lower in my mind than taking a S12 to the same configuration. I would have happily paid more if it had a left side charging handle, metal rail etc.

 

I totaly agree. For once I am one of the lucky ones and my rail is straight as well. But I have had my fare share of problems from other guns. And here is some food for thought. Warranty issues and complaints are probably a big consideration for any company thinking of importing cool stuff like the vepr 12. Due to the fact that they bend over backwards trying to get these things here at reasonable pricces and all people do is complain and cost the companies more money. This greatly reduces the chances of them importing new cool stuff when they are taking all the risk.

[Lord Ak-47 49]

S-12 - $630 + background check & transfer fees

Basic conversion kit - $140.00

Dinzag RSB option - $250.00

Dinzag lower handguard retainer - $50.00

type 030 gas block - $130.00

Custom op-rod - likely over $100.00 to have machined

JTE magwell - $100.00

 

Okay... Now we haven't even gotten to the foregrip, hinging the dust cover, a rail for the dust cover, tuning the weapon, or 1 red cent of labor costs & we've already broken $1400.00....

 

Vepr-12 - $999.99+ $18.00 handling + $15.00 shipping + $25.00 transfer, total, $1058.00

 

I think fixing a canted rail's not exactly the end of the world, all things considered.

 

It's all in what one's looking for I guess.

The S-12 is cheaper to get in the door on, but works out to more in the end if going for the same end result.

 

This has been my point the whole time people are complaining about little things like a rail (that most will not use once they make grips with rails on them).

[Muffman 54]

I've pulled out my vepr 12 and stared at the rail 3x cause of this thread. The first two times I could not tell it was canted. Finally the third time studying it, I could see it was just barely canted. Not enough to care about, and easily enough for any red dot to correct. I would have never noticed if it wasn't for this thread, and I would be suprised if others were not in this same boat. Anyway.. my point is... I think this thread would be a lot more helpful to others if there were more pics and/or measurements. Not saying people are crying wolf, but I hear a lot about canted rails on these Vepr 12's but have only seen pics of one Vepr 12 that was canted enough that I personally would send back. So what do the others look like? Pics or it didn't happen.

[ec4321 113]

It's perfectly fine for a red-dot, at least the cant I have on my vepr rails. Not good for a scope, not sure how many folks are going to put scopes on veprs without rifled barrels - but none the less.

 

Anyway... it's not a "little thing" - it's a crooked optics rail on a firearm. Now, sure we all come to expect this out of Izhmash, but imagine if you got a Ruger rifle with a crooked optics rail. I think folks were hopeful that Molot wouldn't pull an Izhmash. Clearly there are huge cultural differences as no US manufacturer could release firearms to the public with crooked optics rails and stay in business.

 

In this thread though, we again have folks again telling other folks what they should not complain about. It never ceases to amaze me. How about each person will decide for themselves if it bothers them - and if they want to complain about it then that's their choice.

Edited November 1, 2012 by ec4321

[JayLT4 18]

S-12 - $630 + background check & transfer fees

Basic conversion kit - $140.00

Dinzag RSB option - $250.00

Dinzag lower handguard retainer - $50.00

type 030 gas block - $130.00

Custom op-rod - likely over $100.00 to have machined

JTE magwell - $100.00

 

Okay... Now we haven't even gotten to the foregrip, hinging the dust cover, a rail for the dust cover, tuning the weapon, or 1 red cent of labor costs & we've already broken $1400.00....

 

Vepr-12 - $999.99+ $18.00 handling + $15.00 shipping + $25.00 transfer, total, $1058.00

 

I think fixing a canted rail's not exactly the end of the world, all things considered.

 

It's all in what one's looking for I guess.

The S-12 is cheaper to get in the door on, but works out to more in the end if going for the same end result.

 

Remember though, the Legion Saiga-12 030 model is available through Atlantic Firearms for $1150, converted and it comes with the RJF Mojo brake (mine did anyway) which brings the price very close to the cost of a VEPR-12.

[Koljec 37]

Here's mine:

 

That's about as good a picture of it as I can get without fighting autofocus all day. The plane of the rail should be parallel to the plane of the sight. It's clearly, sadly not.

 

It might be a moot issue; the more I play with the hinge-mount dustcover/rail, the less I find it a feature and the more I find it a design flaw. There is play in the dustcover and how it seats, and that exacerbates the cant on the sloppily mounted rail (I think the bad mount is due to bad screw/rivet placement). Not to mention the picantinny grooves challenge my eyes' ability to focus on the irons. This makes me long for the side mount.

 

Anyway, to me firearms are all about reliability, accuracy, and precision. It's arguable that an 18" shotgun doesn't really need such accuracy, but the point her is that the Vepr 12's features, the things that are supposed to justify its price higher than the Saiga 12, are poorly executed. With regard to this dustcover and rail, it's more Verp than Vepr. I think what pisses me off most is that I notice it every stinkin' time I look down the barrel!

 

I don't fault the importer or the seller in the slightest. Importing and sales are a risk, and TGI brings some really excellent firearms into the country (I love my Legion Sobol) that we'd otherwise never see. But in this case I'd appreciate some direction from Atlantic or SGM/TGI. I'd gladly give up the freebie mag for a quality solution here.

 

If nothing can be done, I can live with it, but I think this will be the last time I get excited about AK shotguns.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Koljec

[chevyman097 2,579]

I just picked up my VEPR and this thing is awesome! Im glad I waited on the Saiga12 to be honest.

 

ON the rail. it is canted SLIGHTLY to the left. Maybe 2 mm. It probably would have taken me a long time to notice if I wasnt looking for it.

 

I for one will not fuss about it. Unless they just decide to send me a free rail thats straighter it doesnt seem that big of an issue. It doesnt look as bad as the OPs though.

 

I will try and post pics in a minute.'

 

 

I cant wait to shoot this thing. fit and finish is very tight! and clean. The FFL was very impressed and says he is going to get one too.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Here are the pics. Im not good with the camera so they arent very good. Ohwell you can see what im talking about.

 

 

The first picture i really can hardly tell a problem. The second picture honestly it looks like the rail is slightly canted but as it moves up the rail it appears to get more straight. Maybe its just me.

 

 

 

 

 

I am happy with what I got. Maybe it will be something in the future I look into changing cosmetically.

 

Now enough bullshittin! im off to shoot this bad boy!

Edited November 1, 2012 by Chevyman097

[Superhawk138 202]

It looks like the rail has a little twist but the rear sight base appears to be what's canted.

[hdskumm 39]

my rear sight is a little crooked, kinda looks like Koljec's picture. I'll fiddle around with it to see if I can straighten it out, but my rail looks to be in perfect alignment. Anyway, it's a shotgun. I'm not planning on sniping anyone from 300 yards with it, and mounting optics on a hinged dustcover, to me, seems like a pain in the ass to keep trued anyway. Probably see if I can mount a red dot where the rear sight is, or get a railed handgaurd one day.

[chevyman097 2,579]

It looks like the rail has a little twist but the rear sight base appears to be what's canted.

 

The rear sight is not canted. I think the rail just makes it look that way.

[Superhawk138 202]

Looking at the image on Atlantic's website something is definitely not center line of the gun.

 

[Muffman 54]

Looking at the image on Atlantic's website something is definitely not center line of the gun.

I don't think it works like that. Your line needs to be a 3D line where you can shift the plane of it...

 

I'll post pics of mine when I get home. Mine is pretty similar to Chevyman's. To be honest, even if mine was more canted.. I'd still be more obsessed with the play in my dustcover. I have a TWS dustcover and it has zero play. I also have an M92 with a hinged dustcover. Because it is hinged it is common for people to put rails on the dustcover, especially with the pistol version. My M92 dustcover also has zero play. My Vepr 12's dustcover has a fair amount of play in it. I'm personally more concerned about the play in the dustcover than the cant, which is why I will probably be opting for adding a red dot on a railed handguard for my Vepr 12.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Muffman

[chevyman097 2,579]

Looking at the image on Atlantic's website something is definitely not center line of the gun.

 

 

Ya i dont really think that is an accurate assessment. You are just looking at the picture too hard I think. Im telling you, i have rifle in hand and the sights are straight. Not canted.

 

 

Looking at the image on Atlantic's website something is definitely not center line of the gun.

I don't think it works like that. Your line needs to be a 3D line where you can shift the plane of it...

 

I'll post pics of mine when I get home. Mine is pretty similar to Chevyman's. To be honest, even if mine was more canted.. I'd still be more obsessed with the play in my dustcover. I have a TWS dustcover and it has zero play. I also have an M92 with a hinged dustcover. Because it is hinged it is common for people to put rails on the dustcover, especially with the pistol version. My M92 dustcover also has zero play. My Vepr 12's dustcover has a fair amount of play in it. I'm personally more concerned about the play in the dustcover than the cant, which is why I will probably be opting for adding a red dot on a railed handguard for my Vepr 12.

 

My dust cover has not play in it. Actually it is very very tight I hope it loosens up a little.

[randyf 35]

The S-12 is cheaper to get in the door on, but works out to more in the end if going for the same end result.

 

That is why I went with the VEPR and am happy I did. My rail is straight and the weapon shoots like a champ, eating everything it gets fed. The cost is lower in my mind than taking a S12 to the same configuration. I would have happily paid more if it had a left side charging handle, metal rail etc.

 

I totaly agree. For once I am one of the lucky ones and my rail is straight as well. But I have had my fare share of problems from other guns. And here is some food for thought. Warranty issues and complaints are probably a big consideration for any company thinking of importing cool stuff like the vepr 12. Due to the fact that they bend over backwards trying to get these things here at reasonable pricces and all people do is complain and cost the companies more money. This greatly reduces the chances of them importing new cool stuff when they are taking all the risk.

 

The importers and dealers are out to make a profit just like every other company plain and simple. That is the only motivation, nothing was done out of the goodness of anybody's heart and it is naive to think otherwise. The importers will continue to import guns if they believe they can make a profit and the dealers will sell them for a profit if their is a demand.

Edited November 1, 2012 by defequisimo

[lokmeup 30]

Here's mine:

 

Your rear sight is canted to the right compared to the front sight... this is also making the rail's cant to the left that much more exaggerated.

[chevyman097 2,579]

Here's mine:

 

Your rear sight is canted to the right compared to the front sight... this is also making the rail's cant to the left that much more exaggerated.

 

Again, the rail being canted is making the whole picture look awkward, im betting if he measures it out everything is level. It may very well be that some sights are canted, it happens with all rifles some time or another but dont let the rail fool you.

[Koljec 37]

Your rear sight is canted to the right compared to the front sight... this is also making the rail's cant to the left that much more exaggerated.

 

I did the table-top test, and you're right, there is a lesser cant between the sights as well.

Edited November 1, 2012 by Koljec

[chevyman097 2,579]

Your rear sight is canted to the right compared to the front sight... this is also making the rail's cant to the left that much more exaggerated.

 

I did the table-top test, and you're right, there is a lesser cant between the sights as well.

 

So is the sight leaf canted or is it the whole block? I would think it pretty rare for the rear block to be canted.

[thebuns1 4,323]

Your rear sight is canted to the right compared to the front sight... this is also making the rail's cant to the left that much more exaggerated.

 

I did the table-top test, and you're right, there is a lesser cant between the sights as well.

 

So is the sight leaf canted or is it the whole block? I would think it pretty rare for the rear block to be canted.

 

Prolly the leaf. It happens fairly often. I gave a member here a new sight leaf and it fixed his canted leaf problem and helped him identify what was canted. And it wasnt his RSB.