ctd 20 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 So you are saying that $ are not access issue? So a baby born to pore or bad parents should not have healthcare because they can't pay? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dad2142Dad 6,559 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 @ctd Does the NZ government decide what surgical procedure you will get? Do you have to wait for a clerk to make sure it is on the approved list? Is there a waiting line for the emergency room? These are some of the things I worry about Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Spartacus 1,619 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) So you are saying that $ are not access issue? So a baby born to pore or bad parents should not have healthcare because they can't pay? The problem is that our govt/financial/healthcare system is broken and ENCOURAGES give aways and free loaders. If the system worked properly, it would not be a problem to cover a very small percentage of poor people. In addition to rampant corruption in our govt/financial/healthcare systems, the country has open boarders and is allowing foreign nationals to flood into this country and get free healthcare, free education, welfare and are encouraged to register to vote for more free stuff. The system can't sustain all of that. The problems really have nothing to do with covering healthcare for a small population of poor people. We are now past the tipping point where there are not nearly enough paying customers to cover the freeloaders. And the few paying customers left are being ripped off at every turn. Edited November 13, 2012 by Spartacus 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Photoguy 202 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 What country in which universal healthcare has been instituted has been a significant world power and a trailblazer of innovation and technology? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 So you are saying that $ are not access issue? So a baby born to pore or bad parents should not have healthcare because they can't pay? Yes I am saying that. Quit with the 'what about the poor children' BS because I don't give a shit. Somewhere a child is dying because you,CTD, are not sending it's parents your paycheck. You are a terrible person who dosen't care about that poor innocent child, how can you sleep at night. Life is not fair, get over it and make your own way in life. How can you liberals sleep in your house at night knowing that somewhere in Idontgiveashit,WV there is a poor child without a home. Have a heart... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
triplehelix 0 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) What country in which universal healthcare has been instituted has been a significant world power and a trailblazer of innovation and technology? the UK. if you remove significant world power, as there have really only been a few countries that would legitimately qualify for that criteria on its own, the list of countries with universal healthcare who are trailblazers of innovation and technology is a very respectable length, and they rank much higher in quality of life, and most measurable health stats like longevity and infant mortality rate than the US. i have a financial background and i can honestly say many of the posters in this thread don't seem to understand economics nearly as well as they think they do. the president has extremely limited powers compared to the house. the founding fathers specifically avoided any one individual having too much power. the president can only be a single individual so they put handcuffs on him. the house has the bulk of the federal powers, so they diluted it amongst many many individuals. additionally, economic policy of the current white house isn't looking to take funds from the middle class and distribute it to the poor. that's a fallacy put forth by the 1% wealthiest who's wealth has increased in this economic recession while the rest of us tighten our belts. they should be called on to pay their fair share. and when we are talking about fair shares, we can't compare dollar amounts. fair is percentage of income. if your really upset about wealthy individuals having to pay closer to the same percentage of their income as middle class and lower class individuals do that's your prerogative. we heard both candidates speak about a strong middle class being the engine of an economy, and there is no shortage of information to support that. middle class spending is the job creator. personally i fall in line with the founding fathers and believe states are the only constitutional taxing authority. the federal government should be beholden to the diluted power of the many states, not the many states beholden to the concentrated single federal governments taxing authority. it was set up that way for a very important reason, and changing that in my opinion, has undermined our entire political system. Edited November 13, 2012 by triplehelix Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctd 20 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 @ctd Does the NZ government decide what surgical procedure you will get? Do you have to wait for a clerk to make sure it is on the approved list? Is there a waiting line for the emergency room? These are some of the things I worry about No they don't, the doctors decide. Basically if it is whatever is thought to be best practice. To give you a idea the main reason I have posted on this subject is I had to use my local emergency department last week. It was in the early hours of Sunday morning-a very busy time in a emergency department. I was seen by a nurse in under thirty seconds and was handed straight onto a doctor(who was from Texas). I ended up staying two nights and getting a few CT scans and a whole lot of blood feast as well as lumber punchers. Cost to me? $0 i Due to racing motorbikes and down hill mountain bikes I have been to a lot of eds around both NZ and other parts of the world and all my NZ times have been the same. There are waiting lists for some elective surgery, if people have the $ they sometimes go to a private hospital to speed things up. So you are saying that $ are not access issue? So a baby born to pore or bad parents should not have healthcare because they can't pay? Yes I am saying that. Quit with the 'what about the poor children' BS because I don't give a shit. Somewhere a child is dying because you,CTD, are not sending it's parents your paycheck. You are a terrible person who dosen't care about that poor innocent child, how can you sleep at night. Life is not fair, get over it and make your own way in life. How can you liberals sleep in your house at night knowing that somewhere in Idontgiveashit,WV there is a poor child without a home. Have a heart... How dare you call me a liberal-my whole voting history is at the other end of the scale. I just come from a deferent cultural norm than you. What country in which universal healthcare has been instituted has been a significant world power and a trailblazer of innovation and technology? Remove world power from that and there is a very big list. The USA is not the only trail blazer out there but it is one of the few world powers that have ever existed. Uk Nz Australia Sweden Norway France Germany That's off the top of my head That said none of these country's do it the way the USA is talking about so I don't think you would get the same outcomes So you are saying that $ are not access issue? So a baby born to pore or bad parents should not have healthcare because they can't pay? The problem is that our govt/financial/healthcare system is broken and ENCOURAGES give aways and free loaders. If the system worked properly, it would not be a problem to cover a very small percentage of poor people. In addition to rampant corruption in our govt/financial/healthcare systems, the country has open boarders and is allowing foreign nationals to flood into this country and get free healthcare, free education, welfare and are encouraged to register to vote for more free stuff. The system can't sustain all of that. The problems really have nothing to do with covering healthcare for a small population of poor people. We are now past the tipping point where there are not nearly enough paying customers to cover the freeloaders. And the few paying customers left are being ripped off at every turn. Good post, we have some of the same problems but not to the same extent due to mostly having very tight immigration laws so that unless you are from a pacific island(that oz and nz prop up anyway) you have to be rich or highly skilled to be allowed in for more than a year. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 "Cost to me? $0" The next time you are speeding down a mountain pass dodging trees or racing your motorbike without a care in the world for cost of injuries....remember this little piece of good ol' American common sense....NOTHING IS FREE. It is a pretty simple concept that seems to evade children and liberals. Good day.... 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BK201 8 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 "Cost to me? $0" The next time you are speeding down a mountain pass dodging trees or racing your motorbike without a care in the world for cost of injuries....remember this little piece of good ol' American common sense....NOTHING IS FREE. It is a pretty simple concept that seems to evade children and liberals. Good day.... ill quote this see, if healthcare was just GIVEN to us, we'd expect that. Americans (or what americans should be) don't expect to be given these things. make your own way. what makes the system fail, even if its working properly, is a bunch of freeloaders. that's whats happening right now. ive seen those mythical welfare lines with my own eyes. ive talked with people who say they dont work because the govt pays them not to work(i couldnt hate on them in their faces, they are pretty damn smart in their own light) But, you need more makers than takers. Life isn't fair. I also believe it isn't free. There have been many successful people come out of poverty. Its the american dream, or so they say. So, time to screw that over right? No. We do not need or want to be like the rest of the world. Should insurance cost a bit less? sure. Do i want government regulating it so that the natural selection process is phased out? nope. and to the gentleman who said he doesn't give a shit about the poor child who cant afford healthcare: thumbs up sir. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
U.S. Pratorean 1,234 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 "...it is a basic human right for a person to have access to the best healthcare that is available in there society." The key word there is 'access.' Everyone has the same access. Pay for your own healthcare,I will pay for mine. I do not believe that free healthcare is a right. Apparently I am in the minority, that does not mean that I am wrong. Yes, you are in the minority of level headed thinking individuals whose don't expect a handout. Go get some tires put on your car and then just don't pay when the work is done, see what happens. Personally, I see "poor" folks all the time that don't pay their medical bills yet drive Escalades, have I-phones, test positive for all kinds of drugs,legal and illegal etc and the list goes on but have this f'ed up notion that healthcare is free and someone else will take care of it. Concerning the comment of "poor parents not being able to have children" PLEASE enough of the for the children crap.... First off, 90% are single. There is seldom "parents" but a baby daddy. They breed like rabbits, especially illegal aliens and if you are not from the US and don't live here I don't give a crap what you think either. Sorry if you're offended, I don't care. If you cannot financially support YOUR kids don't have them- get sterilized. Last year non american citizens, cost the US taxpayer the half paying taxes, thirteen BILLION dollars. They do not have or care about a primary physician but just show up in the ER when they get a cold or knocked up, or whatever. Here is what will happen, rationalize whatever the hell you want but get used to this: You better hope you don't get sick because you are screwed. Non- medical personel, not your doctor will decide what treatment you will get. These people will also have all access to your medical records. If you are too young or too old, tough shit, not worth the cost to prolong a life that might only be a couple years. (Think 1940's Germany) Your doctor will only work X amount of hours, you don't get seen, too bad because it is not worth the time or liability. Older doctors wll retire, younger people will not go into medicine because there is no incentive to work hard, incur debt and be successful only to have the govt. screw you. As a result breakthroughs in medicine will decline because of lack of academia and research. Pay out the ass for crap health insurance because you have to carry the load for the freeloaders, don't want their insurance? Pay again for the freeloadersbecause you will be fined and penalized. Lastly, take immense comfort that the 500 some-odd poiticians in DC that control the some-odd 300 millions people in this country will have health care and pensions that you could only dream about because their BS laws and rules ALWAYS EXCLUDE THEM. Oh, you are paying for those freeloaders too!! It cannot be any more screwed up. 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) CTD, the fallacy is that poor people weren't treated in the past in the U.S. This is just not true. This is the principle reason as to why everyone else's healthcare costs are so high - i.e. $90 for saline and $5 for a band-aid. By law, hospitals are required to treat you for life-threatening issues regardless of ability to pay. Homeless people go into the ER for minor issues (scrapes, bruises etc.) in order to get a warm place to hang out for a night. This makes the line longer for people that do have life threatening and time-sensitive issues. If you are unfortunate to have an odd or rare case that only a few surgeons in the entire world can fix, then you probably wouldn't get treatment even if you have insurance because the procedural cost is so high. Many elective and preventative treatments are not covered by most insurance plans. Making these plans mandatory will have no effect for those that need or want these treatments. The average cost to have a baby in this country is $20,000 in medical bills. Illegals come over here and drop multiple anchor babies and don't pay a fucking cent. This is why we have to pay so much is to amortize the 1-2 that don't pay into the 1 that does and since illegals don't have real social security numbers to track and levy the costs to, the hospitals have to chalk their expenses up to a loss or no-pay. Socialized medicine (by way of the government being the only insurance that doesn't need to operate on a profit - thus putting the others out of business over the next few years) in our country is going to treat fewer people, not the other way around. It is a power grab by our government and has nothing to do with the "poor" that can't afford healthcare since they already got it at no cost to them. Edited November 13, 2012 by BuffetDestroyer 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 http://townhall.com/tipsheet/katehicks/2012/06/14/thanks_obamacare_83_of_doctors_surveyed_say_they_may_quit I hope everyone is healthy enough to go without seeing a doctor for awhile... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BK201 8 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) i do hope there is nothing wrong with me asking for some people to review and possibly sign this petition. I am trying to get our voice out of the threads and into the light of the government eyes. there needs to be actual concern for this issue. not just talking about it. http://wh.gov/9SIR also, if you could share with other social circles, i would appreciate. this needs 150 signatures before it actually goes public on their site, much like the rest of the petitions Edited November 13, 2012 by BK201 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctd 20 Posted November 13, 2012 Report Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) Thanks for the comments people, I can be hard to understand a issue from the other side of the world esp when there is such a deference in the historical norms. I posted my questions on most of the forums that I use, this being the only firearms related one. My understanding off how medical stuff now works in the USA and what is being introduced is much better now. I am still very happy to live in and pay (thru tax) for the system that my country has. It looks like we have a much higher rate of people in productive employment to fund it. It seems like ileagal immagration and the non integration of those people is a much bigger issue (both in the public minds & in social cost) than in NZ. Land boarders must be a bitch to control. I still can't for the life of me see how the proposed USA system can work out better than what you have now (I stared out thinking anything had to be better). I think that some of the things that people are woried about are more likely to happen under the proposed system even tho they have not been a issue in practice anywhere else in the world. I hope I also understand the different cultural prospective better-it really has been eye opening. Edited November 14, 2012 by ctd 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marc 147 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 http://cnsnews.com/news/article/cbo-obamacare-will-leave-30-million-uninsured Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) http://cnsnews.com/n...llion-uninsured Good write up. Karl Marx would be impressed that a "tax" is the means of the government acquiring full control over 17% of the GDP. Edited November 14, 2012 by BuffetDestroyer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Eagle 839 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 (edited) @ctd If the system is so good, why did they drop treatments that work? Two words: too expensive. http://www.dailymail...nt-poorest.html http://www.telegraph...-in-Europe.html http://capitalismmag...for-in-britain/ http://www.nytimes.c...e/16cancer.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2004040/Breast-cancer-Thousands-denied-life-saving-surgery-doctors-base-treatment-age.html Take your universal health care and shove it up your ass. Edited November 14, 2012 by Lone Eagle 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ctd 20 Posted November 14, 2012 Report Share Posted November 14, 2012 Lone eagle - any thing can be to expensive, as a USA based poster said even with private insurance there are limits. I'm very glad I'm not having to make those sort of decisions under any sytem. As to shoving anything up my arse- fuck you cunt,people should be able to talk about ideas without that sort of talk so that people can decide what ideas they like. I get that you disagree with me and I respect that without you needing to stoop to that level. Well over a hundred posts on a few forums(most coming from people who don't want it) and while some people are very heated not one person other than you has got personal like that. To everyone else-thank you for understanding that I have not been trolling but trying to learn. I'm done with this subject now Quote Link to post Share on other sites
slippingaway 89 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Fair point. The only thing I'll say is that I take the same payroll deduction hits as the guy who smokes and drinks and will need $2,000,000 worth of liver and cancer care. Meanwhile, I take generally good care of myself and shouldn't run up the same bill. So even those contributing can take a disproportionate share. I'd like that money back, too. Too much runs on it, though. Hey now, with as much as they are taxing us smokers, you would think that money would be going into something fruitful like cancer research or something! We pay our taxes and we make our choices. If I get cancer (knock on wood) then I made that choice. That's Liberty. 2Mil for care is inflated Our healthcare system is so rigged it makes our political system look innocent! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
triplehelix 0 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 @ctd If the system is so good, why did they drop treatments that work? Two words: too expensive. http://www.dailymail...nt-poorest.html http://www.telegraph...-in-Europe.html http://capitalismmag...for-in-britain/ http://www.nytimes.c...e/16cancer.html http://www.dailymail...atment-age.html Take your universal health care and shove it up your ass. how does that stack up in your mind, vs the very common, and until recently legal, occurrence of rescission here in the US, where corporate insurance companies drop individual policies when they contract a serious health issue? or of insurance companies out right denying coverage if you have health issues? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted November 15, 2012 Report Share Posted November 15, 2012 Someone else should have to pay for your health issues, clearly. The most prevalent health issue witnessed in this thread is bumizm. It's when a progressive bum wants someone else to pay for their problem. 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lone Eagle 839 Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 (edited) Well, UK finally grew some. I forgot one link in my OP: Death Panels. Well, here ya go. http://www.dailymail...-relatives.html Putting patients on the ‘death pathway’ without consulting their families will be outlawed next week. Jeremy Hunt is to make it a legal requirement that doctors fully explain the end-of-life treatment in order to obtain consent. The Health Secretary has acted after the Mail highlighted chilling cases in which patients were placed on the Liverpool Care Pathway – which involves withdrawal of fluids and food – without their relatives’ knowledge. On Monday he will announce rule changes that will see end-of-life care included for the first time in the NHS Constitution. The document lays down principles that all doctors must follow. Last night Mr Hunt said he would enshrine the ‘basic right’ of patients to be involved in decisions when they are mortally sick. He threatened ‘tough consequences’ for hospitals that fail to consult. Patients and their families will be able to sue health trusts that break the rules and doctors who ignore their wishes face being struck off for misconduct. The LCP, which leads to death in an average of 33 days, is designed to ease the pain and upheaval for patients who are terminally ill. Health trusts have however faced the charge that it has been overused to hasten the deaths of these patients. Patients have had feeding tubes withdrawn while their relatives were unaware that they been placed on the pathway. In some cases, relatives have covertly fed their elderly relatives after discovering doctors have given up on them. Read it and weep, people. It's coming here soon. We told you so. PS, CTD, Fuck you, too. We still have the 1A here. Your opinion sucked. The HC Law here isn't a healthcare issue, it's a control issue. The government has mandated we buy a product from a private company. NZ may be a wonderful place for you, but we are not a Socialist nation here......yet. We believe in the free market, but a bunch of Libtards seem to think they can perfect the same system that all but killed Russia. Wherever Socialism has been tried, it failed. Look at Greece. Look at Spain. Hell, look at the entire EU. Socialism has all but killed you. I am a sovereign citizen, not a subject. Edited November 16, 2012 by Lone Eagle 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
U.S. Pratorean 1,234 Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Ahem, did we not not keep the UK and France from German being their national language?..........twice? 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Koliadko 207 Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 Our health care system is broken. It was 4 years ago and it still is. Obumblercare did nothing to fix the problem. It just lost a bunch of people their jobs. Curious whether they would rather have forced health care or their jobs...... ctd, I'm glad that it works for you there. There's no way that would work here. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
VR762Shooter 838 Posted November 16, 2012 Report Share Posted November 16, 2012 how does that stack up in your mind, vs the very common, and until recently legal, occurrence of rescission here in the US, where corporate insurance companies drop individual policies when they contract a serious health issue? or of insurance companies out right denying coverage if you have health issues? Amend the ADA and add insurance denial to that as a discriminatory factor. That solves your issue. Now why should everyone be forced to buy it, pay a tax on it, and carry the burden of everyone else? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
triplehelix 0 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 how does that stack up in your mind, vs the very common, and until recently legal, occurrence of rescission here in the US, where corporate insurance companies drop individual policies when they contract a serious health issue? or of insurance companies out right denying coverage if you have health issues? Amend the ADA and add insurance denial to that as a discriminatory factor. That solves your issue. Now why should everyone be forced to buy it, pay a tax on it, and carry the burden of everyone else? ok, but how does that fit in with the free market i keep hearing about here? why would we need government regulation on insurance companies if the free market works as well as so many people with zero practical understanding of economics keep repeating? how about auto insurance? we are almost all forced by state governments to buy auto insurance from private companies. how is that so different to the point i've never heard any conservative backlash against it? what about the hard working honest guy who's worked his entire life, decade after decade, who for one reason or another doesn't have health insurance and ends up with a major health issue? what about those very numerous families with two fully employed adults who still can't afford health insurance? they far outnumber the serially unemployed. you guys are all alright letting them suffer and slowly die or become crippled from treatable ailments because what exactly? have we seriously lost all compassion for our fellow americans? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 You are the one killing the poor children by not donating your house and paychecks. If you don't understand why car insurance is different on your own, then you are hopeless. Debating progressives is like explaining the world to children. If you are fully employed and can't afford insurance than you need to learn a new skill and get a better job. Working some remedial job your entire life does not entitle you to my family's money. And no, other people's problems do not bother me one bit, I have enough to worry about. Denying the free market, is like denying gravity. One day you will understand. 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
triplehelix 0 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 You are the one killing the poor children by not donating your house and paychecks. i'm talking about extending health coverage to hardworking honest americans. address what i said not some ridiculous strawman you put in its place. tell me why the guy who works 40 years for the same company, then gets fired as he approaches retirement so they can avoid paying him his pension deserves to die a slow painful death because he can't afford health insurance. tell me what he should do as an elderly man who now has a major health concern. If you don't understand why car insurance is different on your own, then you are hopeless. i'd bet it has more to do with your inability to come up with reasonable and logical differences. if its so blatantly obvious anyone should be able to glean the difference on first inspection, then it should be no problem for you to give me a few key points on how one government mandated insurance purchase from a private company is reasonable and justifiable, but another is a crime against the american people. Debating progressives is like explaining the world to children. i'm not a progressive. i don't identify with any political affiliation. i get information and decide how i feel about each issue on a case by case basis. i reject the practice of allowing a group of political leaders decide my stance on issues because i affiliate with a specific group. my stance on various issues falls across the entire political spectrum. If you are fully employed and can't afford insurance than you need to learn a new skill and get a better job. Working some remedial job your entire life does not entitle you to my family's money. right. and what family member do you stop feeding and clothing while you make the financial adjustments necessary to pick up a new skill and pay the dues that will bring you to that better pay? so your solution is that every citizen in the united states should get a well paying job with good health benefits? do you not understand that is not only impractical but impossible? and if your have such a strong grasp on economics as you feel you do, maybe you could elaborate on how everybody rejecting low paying jobs wouldn't lead to a complete and total economic collapse? And no, other people's problems do not bother me one bit, I have enough to worry about. i think we get to the crux of your position here. as long as your all right, screw everyone else. complete and total lack of empathy is one of the defining qualities of sociopaths. now i agree we need to stop suckling those people who are gaming the system and just living off social welfare without much desire to stand on their own two feet. i do not however agree that we should just disregard good hard working americans because they find themselves in a worse situation then i find myself in. Denying the free market, is like denying gravity. One day you will understand. so your in favor of repealing labor laws, allowing companies to demand 60-80 hour work weeks with no overtime, no ramifications to the company for poisoning their employees through adverse work conditions or any other injury/illness directly related to unsafe work conditions, demand its employees work on christmas, along with the myrid other anti-free market employee protections that have been federally mandated, and let the free market go to work i assume? i'll pit my series 7 and job experience as a financial adviser against your, well you never did say where you get your deep understanding of economics, on any economic topic including but not limited to the free market. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lbsrdi 1,078 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 You asked at least 11questions there, I will get around to answering most of them later when I have time. I will say that you being a financial adviser means absolutely nothing. The free market concepts are easy to debate. It takes no real effort, just understanding. You act like the workers are slaves who must comply with the company's wishes. The market allows for competition of employers. If one company demanded their workers work 90 hrs a week and on Christmas the workers have the choice to go elsewhere. You act as if the mere fact that one is hired entitles said worker to all of these government mandated protections. Competition for the good workers would drive employers to provide good pay, safe conditions, and reasonable hours. The problem is that you really don't understand these concepts so you think that the government is the answer. Car insurance: If you get into your car uninsured, you could kill or cause permanent injuries to someone else. If you have no medical insurance and get sick It harms no one but you. And we have decided as a society that if that happens we will even cover the emergency services for the irresponsible, because we are a caring people. If you don't understand the difference you must be either 15 years old or very thickheaded. "and what family member do you stop feeding and clothing while you make the financial adjustments necessary to pick up a new skill and pay the dues that will bring you to that better pay?" If you work at minimum wage and start a family you are not responsible and you may have already fucked yourself, it may take a lot of hard work and sacrifice to get your life turned around. And you are correct that I do not give a shit about others problems that resulted from bad decisions. Sociopath or not, government is the most inefficient way to help people. I am very giving and always willing to help someone in need, just not via the government. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
theorangeplanet 968 Posted November 17, 2012 Report Share Posted November 17, 2012 i'll pit my series 7 and job experience as a financial adviser against your, well you never did say where you get your deep understanding of economics, on any economic topic including but not limited to the free market. And you're the one wasting your time on arguing on a gun forum about economics. Now that's funny... Isn't it about time this was moved anyway? Crack that whip, mods! 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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