davidsuffolk 96 Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 I posted the message below on the IPSC Forum in the hope of reaching people who didn't subscribe to the Saiga Forum and I thought the replies I got sufficiently intersting to cross post them here so others can see. Having said that, if anyone does have knowledge of how to extend magazines beyond 12 rounds I would be interested to hear from them (and if anyone knows how to attach a drum I'll have their babies!!) I also got a couple of very interesting replies plus another video from one of our Finnish friends which I think was so good I re print the link for everyone else to see. He posted some images of his magazine extention plus the housing which I've copied below. The URL for the video is http://www.toiminta-ampujat.net/picture_li...PJ_saiga_02.mpg and I hope everyone else enjoys it as much as I did!! Message posted on the IPSC Forum. I have to admit being a total fan of my Saiga as I love the AK look and reliability BUT I am struggling with mag changI posted this on the IPSC forum as I thought maybe there might be some people there using Saigas who hadn't read anything on this forum [es, especially as my largest mag is only 9 rounds (8 shot mag with an extra one forced in) and I find it impossible to load either the normal 8 or 9 with a closed bolt. 5 rounders will insert on a closed bolt but the spring pressure seems to make it very hard to do on the bigger mags. I do have a BHO fitted and an extension on the mag release but on a long stage I just cannot keep up with the big tube mags. I accept my choice of weapon may not make me competative as I'm sure there are better shotguns for use in matches but I would like to make what I have as good as it can be. I know from the Saiga forum that a Finnish man has extended his 8 rounders to I think 12 and I plan to try and do that as well but, on being told of this forum, I wondered if anyone anywhere had successfully either MADE a big mag or CONVERTED a smaller mag (or even adapted a drum) to get the capacity up to beyond say 15 rounds. I am not from the US so I don't have the DD problem so often mentioned so if anyone has any advice or comments I would appreciate either a post or a PM? So, if anyone has made a magazine bigger than 12 rounds or successfully fitted a drum please let me know how etc? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted November 16, 2005 Report Share Posted November 16, 2005 Can't help you with the mag changes, Z1500 is our best hope to date. As for the video, Shit, Bigfoot with a s12. Nice Any other good links to Team Shitbird stuff, the one I have that was posted a few months ago is now dead (not as dead as whatever the hell Bigfoot was shooting at, but dead none the less) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 To get to 12 rounds you might can just slap an 8 and a 5 rounder together like in the post at http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=8240 . The magazine in the picture clearly uses the body of a standard russian 8 rounder, so I would assume that's the basis for it. Perhaps you can even slap together two 8 rounders to get a 16round total capacity, though that would be really awkward. Also, I would hate to "test" it out because if it didn't work you just wasted $160 bucks on an 8 and 5 rounder. Just a thought though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Does anyone know if that is a real-time rate of fire? Or is it somehow sped up? Or is that an automatic saiga? I'm quick with mine, but that was INSANE!!!!!!!!! Even bump-firing I'm slower than that. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 I think it's real time...look at the background stuff. The shooters name is PJ if I'm not mistaken, and from another video that used to be around, the gun is semi and he's just badd ass. These Finnish guys look to love their guns and are mighty fine at tweeking them Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Holy Shitbird! That's amazing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
StarLynx 0 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Hawt DAYMN!!...If that guy could toss 10 Clays in the air & bust em all before they hit the ground Like Ol Tom What'shisname does with a Benelli Pracitcal (10 shot).....{Anybody eyeballed that vid???Claiming Benelli is the fastest repeater SG???}.....That Saiga shooter would make a benelli hit the ground & throw up a French White flag with tints of Piss yellow all over it!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Does anyone know if that is a real-time rate of fire? Or is it somehow sped up? Or is that an automatic saiga? I'm quick with mine, but that was INSANE!!!!!!!!! Even bump-firing I'm slower than that. Definitely real. That's why the top dawgs care about the ROF of their shotty. There's always an arguement of SX2 vs benelli vs Saiga. Never really a need to shoot that fast, but because they can shoot that fast competition speeds seem slow to them. :/ Not the same platform, but one day I was off shooting to the side with my .22 pistol. I was shooting as fast as I could. Our local "hot rock" shooter (very talented pistolero) came over and ran a mag at a speed I didn't think the gun would even cycle. Did it cold (having never shot this pistol before) but did have a "trigger freeze" in there once (was "learning" the reset). Most of us would "grip it and rip it" but you actually need to relax the trigger finger to get that speed. I'm not even close to our local shooter or our Finnish friend. David, I think I remember one of the Finnish group mentioning that the largest reliable mag one of them had running was a 15 rounder. I'm guessing that a USAS12 with the 20 round drum is not allowed? Remind me what IPSC limits mags to? I'm thinking USPSA limits you to 10 rounds, but I'm not sure. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Does anyone know if that is a real-time rate of fire? Or is it somehow sped up? Or is that an automatic saiga? I'm quick with mine, but that was INSANE!!!!!!!!! Even bump-firing I'm slower than that. I'd suspect a twist tie or something fell in there and accidentally prevented the disconnector from catching the hammer. I've heard of that happening before. Either that or he's just that good! Excellent vid by the way, thanks David! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 I dunno guys... from the video it does not look like his trigger finger is moving very much or at all between shots. Oh, and unofficially the Saiga 12 is faster than a Benelli auto. Just for bragging rights, we used a timer while I shot 5 rounds and then a shooter with the Benelli shot 5 and the Saiga won with a definate lead. Then we switched shotguns and shot again and the Benelli owner won with the Saiga 12. His time was actually faster than mine using the Saiga. Needless to say the Benelli owner was speechless. RonSwin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JumiKuula 1 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 That video is real speed. (I was behind the camera. ) It is just recorded with HP 935 digital-camera so one can't expect good image quality or frame speed (trigger finger...) in video-mode. ...And PJ is faster than S12C with bumpfire! BTW, offically Browning Silver, Gold (and Winchester SX2, a poor copy of Gold... ), Auto-5 and S12 are way faster than Benelli or Jaming... eh, Remington. -JumiKuula aka JamShot Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kmoore 3 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 ...And PJ is faster than S12C with bumpfire! BTW, offically Browning Silver, Gold (and Winchester SX2, a poor copy of Gold... ), Auto-5 and S12 are way faster than Benelli or Jaming... eh, Remington. -JumiKuula aka JamShot I'd guess that if PJ was the one doing the testing, that's about as definitive as it gets Ron, Who dat banelly owner? Nothing like a hidollar gun owner finding out that his toy isn't quite as fast as the "lowely, inexpensive AK variant .... " and for the inexpensive part ... let's not tell them how much we spend getting our shotties set up with mags, PG, sights, etc ....... I've got $220 in my shot gun but that's as far as I remember it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Can't help you with the mag changes, Z1500 is our best hope to date. As for the video, Shit, Bigfoot with a s12. Nice Any other good links to Team Shitbird stuff, the one I have that was posted a few months ago is now dead (not as dead as whatever the hell Bigfoot was shooting at, but dead none the less) Hey JumiKuula, Could you please post another link to that 1st video of team shitbird? I want to save that to my hard drive. Best Saiga action video I've seen. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pistonring8 1 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 Cool video! I already got the ok from my wife (the boss) to get an S-12 for my birthday in April. Being a used or new S-12, (Im not sure yet) I can assure you that I will have a functional drum mag (for my own personal use) by July. Im not sure how many rounds I can make it hold yet, because I havent had the opertunity to feel out the S-12's ergonomics. The DD issue wont be threatened because 1 or 2 privately fabricated drum mags are not going to raise any alarms with the ATF. If someone were to mass produce them for the general civilian puplic, then we would have a prob. I have already fabricated 2, 15 round drums (followers and all) for a Remmington pump and Benelli auto, for friends of mine. (Around the time of the AWB sunset) I primarily used 14 guage sheet metal and a Briggs&Stratton recoil spring. They both index flawlessly and actually feed better (and look better) than the aftermarket 10 round drums that F.A.C used to sell. They are both still functioning flawlessly to this day. I know this is a hottly debated issue, and I dont want to be severely beaten, so I wont go into it too much. I certainly dont want any restrictions imposed on this wonderful shotgun. When it comes time to begin fabrication on my S-12 drum, I am considering taking step by step photos and recording precise measurements used as well as techniques like shaping the top of the mag and implamenting a ratchet action indexing device. I could post a "How to" for other home fabricators who have access to welding / machining equipment. Ofcorse, I won't be posting anything like this without ALL of the moderators consent. That includes Bvamp who is highly against any fabrication of a rotary mag for the Saigas. For good reason too, we all know that too much unwanted attention could essentially outlaw this specific firearm and bring any future inportation to a screatching halt. I dont want that. I would love for my son to be able to purchase his own S-12 when he gets old enough. And I feel that we all are already restricted enough as to what we legally are and are not "allowed" to own. At this present time some of us (depending on what state you live in) are not restricted to limited magazine capacity. But that does not mean that the issue is not closely scrutanised by thoes who make these restrictions. Moderators, feel free to delete my post at your descression. I appologise if I am out of line by bringing up a touchy subject. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BattleRifleG3 16 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 I know lots of folks would love to see pictures. Suppose you could accept an E-mail list and attach them instead of posting on the open forum? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TacticalResponse 0 Posted November 17, 2005 Report Share Posted November 17, 2005 (edited) I wonder if his speed has something to do with that big comp on the end of his gun? Shotguns are not high pressure weapons. However, the propellants for the shells are designed to provide high gas volume. So maybe that comp works really well. Edited November 17, 2005 by TacticalResponse Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted November 18, 2005 Report Share Posted November 18, 2005 I dont know who ya'll have seen bump fire, but when I bump my s12, it is one constant sound. kind of like a machine pistol. I have no idea why it cycles so fast. If I dont pull hard enough on the gun, the cycling rate decreases dramatically, so maybe that is what is referred to. Nice video though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted November 19, 2005 Report Share Posted November 19, 2005 (edited) Hey, got this back from PJ. Kind of interesting. These guys sound like they'd be a blast to hang with. Thank god they have the ability to reply back in english, as I'm getting really pissed that I can't understand Finnish or get a decent translator. Just looking at the pictures of the gun mods on the Toiminta is impressive to say the least. Anyway, here's to secret to the big guys speed-don't let it out......... PJ's reply- The trigger in that Saiga breaks about 5 lbs so it's not very light. All trigger parts are stock but they are selected from a pile of different ones. Since there is a lot of variations with AK-stuff we just picked up those parts which gave the best feel. I can shoot about 0.10 splits on a good day with my stock Glock 17 (it has a5 lbs trigger too). It just feels all natural so I really didn't even think it was a big deal ever. Just goes to show that if you have good basic shooting skills, you don't really need all the bells and whistles (not that there's anything shabby about their kits) Edited November 20, 2005 by 6500rpm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
marz 0 Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 well that just sold me on the saiga. i was considering a g3 but i really wanted the ammo variety of a shotty. and that video clinched it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dodgeturbointerceptor 1 Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 That vid is full auto! is that bump firing? i'm now lost.............. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 That's not FA and it's not bumpfiring. Some people are just that fast on the trigger. I have a video of the worlds fatest shooter in a demonstration in Mississippi that will blow your mind. In the video he puts 8rds in one target in one second. Then he puts 8 rds in 4 targets in 1.06 seconds. Finally It shows him shoot 6 shots, reload, and shoot 6 more in 2.99 seconds. Ready for the kicker? He's using a revolver! and pulling the trigger each time not hammer slappin John Wayne style. <edit> Video added below Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dodgeturbointerceptor 1 Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 If it's the guy from Louisiana with the accent shooting the ported revolver... I've seen the home videos actually. It's my friend Chad Thibodeaux's dad. He tours and shit. That guy is scary fast. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TommiF 0 Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 That's not FA and it's not bumpfiring. Some people are just that fast on the trigger. Correct. I was there with timer. Those ten rounds took 1.1 seconds. Tommi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pistonring8 1 Posted November 20, 2005 Report Share Posted November 20, 2005 That revolver video is probably the coolest thing Ive ever seen! That guy is amazing!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TommiF 0 Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 That revolver video is probably the coolest thing Ive ever seen! That guy is amazing!!! Jerry Miculec? Tommi Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Yeah that's him. http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/JERRY_...ry_miculek.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 http://media.putfile.com/fastshooter Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dinzag 31 Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Wow! And I thought PJ was fast!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 Jerry is actually the proud owner of some of my Saigas... The two I traded to Alex Wakal for the AR-15 were specifically earmarked for Jerry... I think its kinda cool that Jerry has some of MY old Saigas to shoot now!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hartzpad 0 Posted November 21, 2005 Report Share Posted November 21, 2005 here is a pic I found on FAL Files Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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