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What can you do to a Saiga?


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#1 PvtPyle

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 01:34 PM

What can I do to my Saiga shotgun?

This seems to be a VERY confusing area. You have what the ATF says in law and rulings, you have what the wholesalers and dealers say, and you have what RKI’s say. Well, I don’t know if I would consider myself a RKI, but I have been looking into the matter as much as I can since getting my first Saiga 12 and this is a compellation of what I have come up with.

What does the 1994 Crime bill say about assault shotguns?

While getting info from the ATF can be confusing and hard to find exactly what you are looking for, luckily there are sources on the net that have complied that info in easy to find and read pages. For the purpose of this essay, I will be drawing from the ATF FAQ page, and “The Gunnery Network’s” compellation of the Crime Bill. Also I will pull from time to time from James Bardwell and Jim Jeffries. So let’s get to it.

The law defines firearms as "assault weapons" by one or both of two methods: name and description. [18 U.S.C. 921(a)(30)]. All told, the law affects more than 175 semi-automatic rifles, pistols and shotguns and revolving cylinder shotguns a cross-section of firearms of various sizes, shapes, and calibers/gauges. Under the law, the term "semiautomatic assault weapon" means:
• any of the firearms, or copies or duplicates of the firearms in any caliber, known as: Norinco, Mitchell, Poly Technologies Avtomat Kalashnikovs (all models); Action Arms I.M.I. UZI and Galil; Beretta AR-70 (SC70); Colt AR-15; Fabrique Nationale FN-FAL/LAR, and FNC; SWD M-10, M-11, M-11/9, and M-12; Steyr AUG; Intratec TEC-9, TEC-DC9, and TEC-22; and revolving cylinder shotguns, such as (or similar to) the Street Sweeper and Striker 12;

a semi-automatic rifle that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:
• 1) a folding or telescoping stock;
• 2) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
• 3) a bayonet mount;
• 4) a flash suppressor or threaded barrel;
• 5) and a grenade launcher;

a semi-automatic pistol that has an ability to accept a detachable magazine and has at least two of the following:
• 1) an ammunition magazine that attaches to the pistol outside of the pistol grip;
• 2) a threaded barrel capable of accepting a barrel extender, flash suppressor, forward handgrip, or silencer;
• 3) a shroud that is attached to, or partially or completely encircles, the barrel and that permits the shooter to hold the firearm with the non-trigger hand without being burned;
• 4) a manufactured weight of 50 ounces or more when the pistol is unloaded;
• 5) and a semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm; and

a semi-automatic shotgun that has at least two of the following:
• 1) a folding or telescoping stock;
• 2) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
• 3) a fixed magazine in excess of five rounds;
• 4) and an ability to accept a detachable magazine.

So we are really only interested with here is this part:

a semi-automatic shotgun that has at least two of the following:
• 1) a folding or telescoping stock;
• 2) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon;
• 3) a fixed magazine in excess of five rounds;
• 4) and an ability to accept a detachable magazine.


How does this affect the stock Saiga’s available for civilian purchase? Lets review the features it DOES and DOES NOT have.

• 1) a folding or telescoping stock; NO
• 2) a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon; NO
• 3) a fixed magazine in excess of five rounds; NO
• 4) and an ability to accept a detachable magazine. YES

So, item one is a non-issue. Item two can be a big issue, item 3 is a non-issue since there is not a fixed magazine. And item 4 is our first evil feature. So how can we modify the gun past this point and stay legal?

1) Can I add a folding AK style stock to my Saiga? Not without a bit of work to the gun. You would not only have to modify the rear trunion of the gun (just like on any other AK) but you will have to comply with another section of the crime Bill that we will soon get to, the 10 US made parts.

2) Can I add a pistol grip to my Saiga? Again, you will have to do a bit of modification to the gun. If you have looked closely at your Saiga (which I am quite sure most of you have!) you will see that the original trigger locations are already there. So now you know where you put your parts, and you will then be able to figure where to cut your pistol grip bolt location (some need this, some don’t). But again you need the 10 US parts. Now I ask the local compliance agent with ATF (for what THAT’S worth) about the Choate SVD style stock. His response was that the ATF had yet to rule the Choate stock on this weapon to be a pistol grip. So by their logic it would be legal. Then again, the field agents don’t make rulings or policy, the Tech Branch would be the group to get a definitive answer from, IN WRITING. But there are several good reasons not to do that very thing that I will cover shortly.

3) Can I add a fixed magazine? This may be a way around the traditional AK style stock addition without the 10 US parts. By fixing a magazine in place you could add the traditional stock without the US parts. But now you must ask yourself “Will I be putting in more work just to load the thing than I would to do the proper legal conversion?” and “Why the hell would I want to do that?”

4) It already has a detachable magazine, but are there round capacity limits? NO! According to their ruling, there is NO MENTION of the 5 round magazine being the largest mag a civilian can own. By their own words, there is NO REASON that a civilian can not own the 8 round mags. People have already begun to use this and modify the old USAS-12 ten round mags to fit the Saiga 12ga’s. Personally I think the biggest reason wholesalers and dealers wont sell these mags to civilians is out of ignorance of the wording of the law. It clearly says a 5 round mag, but ONLY IF IT IS FIXED MAGAZINES!

So what is the whole US parts count thing?
Just like the other assault weapons, specifically rifles, there are specific pieces that the ATF consider enough to make up a weapon. While just these listed parts would not make a weapon complete, they are the ones that the ATF recognize as parts that can be changed out with US made parts to allow you to convert your stock weapon to a configuration cover as an “Assault Weapon” by their definition. So what are they?

27 CFR section 178.39

(a) No person shall assemble a semiautomatic rifle, or any
shotgun, using more than 10 of the imported parts listed in
paragraph © of this section if the assembled firearm is
prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) as not
being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to
sporting purposes.

(B) The provisions of this section shall not apply to:

(1) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for sale or
distribution by a licensed manufacturer to the United
States or any department or agency thereof, or to any
State or any department, agency, or political subdivision
thereof; or

(2) The assembly of such rifle or shotgun for the
purposes of testing or experimentation authorized by the
Director under the provisions of section 178.151; or

(3) The repair of any rifle or shotgun which had been
imported into or assembled in the United States prior to
November 30, 1990, or the replacement of any part of such
firearm.

© For purposes of this section, the term imported parts are:

(1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or
stampings
(2) Barrels
(3) Barrel extensions
(4) Mounting blocks (trunions)
(5) Muzzle attachments
(6) Bolts
(7) Bolt carriers
(8) Operating rods
(9) Gas pistons
(10) Trigger housings
(11) Triggers
(12) Hammers
(13) Sears
(14) Disconnectors
(15) Buttstocks
(16) Pistol grips
(17) Forearm handguards
(18) Magazine bodies
(19) Followers
(20) Floorplates

So there they are. For a long time it was hard to find many of these pieces for the AK’s, but now they are everywhere. Got to love that American ingenuity! But finding enough parts to convert your Saiga will be a bit more difficult. They simply are not made yet. But if you CAN find enough parts to do it, then you are free and clear to convert your Saiga to the LEO/dealer models that are out there.

What about the dealers/wholesalers that say I will be making a Destructive Device?
Pure crap. Here is what it says about DD’s:
DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES

26 U.S.C. sec. 5845(f) "The term destructive device
means

1) any explosive, incendiary or poison gas
A) bomb
B) grenade
C) rocket having propellant charge of more than four
ounces
D) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of
more than one-quarter ounce
E) mine, or
F) similar device

2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or
may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the
action of a explosive or other propellant, the barrel or
barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in
diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the
Secretary or his delegate finds is generally recognized as
particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and

3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for
use in converting any device into a destructive device as
defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a
destructive device may be readily assembled. The term
'destructive device' shall not include any device which is
neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any
device although originally designed for use as a weapon,
which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic,
line throwing, safety or similar device; surplus ordnance
sold, loaned or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant
to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685 or 4686 of title
10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the
Secretary of the Treasury or his delegate finds is not
likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a
rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting
purposes."

Now, I don’t know about you, but I don’t see anything that specifically says that if you make an assault shotgun you will automatically be making a DD. You would just be making an assault weapon. BUT! That said, I think this is what causes a lot of dealers and wholesalers sleepless nights:
any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or
may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the
action of a explosive or other propellant, the barrel or
barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in
diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the
Secretary or his delegate finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes;

As you know, they have already decided that the Street Sweeper, Striker and USAS-12 were DD’s. People are just plain worried that the ATF will rule these to be DD’s as well, and they will be left sitting on an inventory of weapons that is now EXTREMELY hard to sell and one which the clientele is very small for. Sure they would be worth more money as a DD, but how many of you out there will pay that $200 tax on your $250 gun? My theory is that the wholesalers and dealers hope that in the traditional configuration, and with only the 5 round mags being readily available that the ATF will not take a keen notice of these weapons. After all, the detachable mag is the big factor that made them rule the USAS-12 semi-auto a DD. It is no stretch at all to see the ATF doing the same thing to the Saiga. And if you think they will do it to just those with the pistol grips…. Are you familiar with the way these guys function??? These guns can be converted to an assault weapons configuration in less than an hour.

Personally I see them doing this either around the time frame of the Crime Bill sun setting (as you will be able to make whatever conversion you want to after Sept. 13th 2004) or in the near future if they see something to spark their interest. Like the gun being used in a crime or a number of US made parts becoming available to perform the conversion within the parameters of the Crime Bill as it is now. How many dealers out there do you know that are willing to pay $100 a year for their Type 9 FFL so they can sell these guns? And do you know a dealer in your area that is willing to do the same thing so he can bring it in for you, even if you are willing to pay the $200 tax?

I hope this helps, as I said I am no RKI but this is what I was able to find on the issue. If anyone else has anything to add please throw it out and let’s see where it lands.

Pyle

Edited by Cobra 76 two, 08 February 2006 - 11:37 PM.

Lo there do I see my Fathers.
Lo there do I see my Mothers and my Sisters and my Brothers.
Lo do I see the line of my people, back to the begining.
Lo they do call to me.
They bid me to take my place among them, in the Halls of Valhalla.
Where the brave shall live forever.

#2 jackhammer

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 04:44 PM

ouch better buy A few more soon! Whens that thing sunset???

#3 PvtPyle

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 08:40 PM

Sept. 13th 2004
Lo there do I see my Fathers.
Lo there do I see my Mothers and my Sisters and my Brothers.
Lo do I see the line of my people, back to the begining.
Lo they do call to me.
They bid me to take my place among them, in the Halls of Valhalla.
Where the brave shall live forever.

#4 SaltPeter

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 09:54 PM

Nice essay, PvtPyle. Makes a little sense out of a crazy issue. Man, I am sure glad I'm a cop. Bill Clinton was such a prick. Can you believe we, the gun owners of America, let this happen in the '90s?
You can only get so dead. You can't get any deader.

#5 Makc

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Posted 26 May 2003 - 10:15 PM

I will have to move my B-Day celebration to Sept. 13th 2004!!! :super: :super: :super: :super: :super: :super: :super:
"A conscience does not prevent sin. It only prevents you from enjoying it."

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#6 PvtPyle

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Posted 27 May 2003 - 06:27 PM

The strangest thing seems to be happening to me with this whole mag deal. I have talked to K-USA, and AK-USA directly and at length about this, and EAA via email and nobody can seem to tell me what the ACTUAL law regarding this is. I keep getting the ATF says so, but they have not said so in writing..... Chris and I spoke about it and he made the most sense in the intent of the law arguement. But intent and actual wording is not the same thing in most courtrooms. The only exception being that of the ones ATF can control. EAA is saying they cant even sell to me as a dealer! WTF???? I can be trusted to sell machine guns but I cant be trusted to sell a MAGAZINE?!?!?! Whatever.

So I leave it to you guys, the gunowners out there. Do I write to the ATF and ask them about it, and possibly draw unwanted attention to our guns yet again? It would be a clear win for us if they followed the letter of the law. But the down side is they could screw us over on the guns and the mags with their sporting purposes crap. I can also find out if the 10 US parts portion of the law is applied equally to the shotguns. What the heck, in for a penny in for a pound. Once they start looking they probably wont quit until they have probed the issue but good.

So what do you guys want me to do on this? I am fighting for our rights on this USING THEIR LAWS, but do we risk losing some more?
Lo there do I see my Fathers.
Lo there do I see my Mothers and my Sisters and my Brothers.
Lo do I see the line of my people, back to the begining.
Lo they do call to me.
They bid me to take my place among them, in the Halls of Valhalla.
Where the brave shall live forever.

#7 CheeseHead

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Posted 28 May 2003 - 08:33 AM

I say wait until after the sunset. If it sunsets then yippy nothing to warry about. If it gets a new life then our gun will most likely be exempt as pre '04 guns. Unless it is deamed a DD. ATF still wouldn't get it, I would go to jail over this, sad.

Also if you read the laws 8 rnd mags should be A'ok. I can not see why they are not. I think the problem is fear. The manufacture won't sell to you because there is not a demand for 8rnd mags. If the distributor offers and markets them then they made the demand. The marketing will not be paided for by 8 rnd sales and it will bring unwanted attention to the gun. 8 rnd mags have no measurable positive effect on EAA's bottom line. Like every company they are in it to make money.

#8 jackhammer

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Posted 29 May 2003 - 06:29 PM

DO ANY OF YOU REALLY THINK THEY WILL LET THAT BAN SUNSET???? I DONT THINK SO!!!!! LAST MINUTE THEY"LL REINSTATE IT.

#9 PvtPyle

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Posted 30 May 2003 - 10:07 PM

Ummm, they CANT reinstate it. They have to introduce an entirely new piece of legislation and have it pass thru to be signed. They cant just say "lets extend it" and have it be so.
Lo there do I see my Fathers.
Lo there do I see my Mothers and my Sisters and my Brothers.
Lo do I see the line of my people, back to the begining.
Lo they do call to me.
They bid me to take my place among them, in the Halls of Valhalla.
Where the brave shall live forever.

#10 jackhammer

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 01:37 PM

OH god A new one!!!!!! that would suck!!! gee what will they ban next??

#11 Gunfighter84

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 02:56 PM

Not to be demeaning or trying to cut on anyone, but Jackhammer, you sound a tad young and full of piss and vinegar. Not saying I'm not young, but I've been at this game for a while and I've learned that patients and outraged statements only work on the camera. So save 'em.

I was 14 when the '94 ban began to get kicked around in the House way back in 1992 when Clinton came in, and I also remember the huge backlash against the Democrats afterwords (Republican Revolution anyone?). The bill was very close and this time, especially with this big "national security" scare going on right now, I very seriously doubt a new one will occur. If it does, I suggest what I suggested all along- civil disobediance. "Just Say No". Pistol grip stocks, bayonet lugs, flash supressors. SFW. If you want them, mount them. Unless you live in NY, Mass, or the PRK, no state or locals will give you any hassle 99.9% of the time, and seeing how long it takes the ATF to get back to me on a simple question, I doubt most of the very very small amount of ATF agents out there, know the codes on 922® either.

In the end its up to you, I live up north near Canada, and I can tell you that most Canadians still own guns, despite what their government says. I've seen Brens, Stens, FALs, AKs, and every other type of "regulated" and "restricted" arm up there nearly every time I go shooting outside of a controlled range up in BC. Canadian gun owners, and their corresponding agencies have told their federal government on more than a few occasions to shove it, and you know whats happened to them? Nothing.

All the gun grabbers are "peace-children" from the 60s right? Well, lets take a play out of their play-book and offer up a little civil disobediance, some peacefull protest, next time we get crapped on, instead of forming militias and giving a lot of wild eyed talk about JBTs coming to knock down our doors and start the next American Revolution.

Just my $.10 ('cause my $0.02 is free...who sent, you sent for me? Guess who's back....back again....Shady's back...tell a friend.....) (sorry)


Anderson

#12 jackhammer

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Posted 31 May 2003 - 04:34 PM

BLAH BLAH BLAH

#13 PvtPyle

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 10:50 AM

Here in Utah it is legal to buy an atomic weapon, but it is a felony however to detonate one with the state boundaries.

I shit you not! :devil:

Edited by PvtPyle, 01 June 2003 - 10:51 AM.

Lo there do I see my Fathers.
Lo there do I see my Mothers and my Sisters and my Brothers.
Lo do I see the line of my people, back to the begining.
Lo they do call to me.
They bid me to take my place among them, in the Halls of Valhalla.
Where the brave shall live forever.

#14 jackhammer

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Posted 01 June 2003 - 02:28 PM

OMG :eek: you can buy one there??? :ded:

#15 PvtPyle

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 08:18 AM

No, you cant. But only because they are not available. The point is that it is one of those stupid laws that is on the books. A civilian can buy one, but not detonate it. :rolleyes:
Lo there do I see my Fathers.
Lo there do I see my Mothers and my Sisters and my Brothers.
Lo do I see the line of my people, back to the begining.
Lo they do call to me.
They bid me to take my place among them, in the Halls of Valhalla.
Where the brave shall live forever.

#16 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 10:11 AM

the amount of explosives needed to detonate plutonium exceeds the amount legally obtainable by ordinary citizens, plus plutonium or enriched urainum is property of such and such place, and is not sellable by federal law. im SURE its ruleable as a "destructive device" and you have to file for paperwork on it. think your sheriff will ok that one? i doubt it. try making a breeder reactor in your backyard and see what uncle sam says about that. i do believe all that falls under some strange thing they call, what was it again? oh yeh, "National Security" or whatever that joke is. what i dont like is that i cant posess freaking rounds for my armalite's grenade launcher or its considered intent something or other, and is also a destructive device. but if that keeps some idiot from collecting thermonuclear weapons, so be it. :angel:
Rockin the Saiga world since 2003

#17 PvtPyle

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 12:47 PM

It is also illegal to hunt whales in Utah. You know the great salt lake is kown for it large pods of bule whales, so they must be protected. :angel:
Lo there do I see my Fathers.
Lo there do I see my Mothers and my Sisters and my Brothers.
Lo do I see the line of my people, back to the begining.
Lo they do call to me.
They bid me to take my place among them, in the Halls of Valhalla.
Where the brave shall live forever.

#18 jackhammer

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 01:02 PM

Well im just gunna pay the 200.oo and buy what I want! the DD ban was later anyway and I dont think they are going to change it>. :( :bann:

#19 bigpond73

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Posted 02 June 2003 - 06:29 PM

LOL, PvtPyle! That's some funny shit! To think it is totally different here a state over. BTW, took the Saiga12 out this last weekend. After finally figuring out what it likes (lots of lube), she runs like a dream, a beaut! Excellent essay, saw it over at ak net too. Keep it up, we need people like you out there to interpret and to fight for these stupid laws, whatever they may be. Again, thanks!

Mike
Bulgarian AK-47
Pre-Ban Chinese SKS
Sig Sauer P226/9
Saiga 12
many, many more..........

#20 Fredness

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Posted 05 June 2003 - 11:31 PM

http://www.gunsnet.n...3550#post993550

Here is the text from the ATF Letter I received today. Nothing but bad news...


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ATF Letter: Saiga-12, Choate, 8/10 rnd mags 
Sorry, I gotta tell you folks the bad news...

Letter from the BATF Firearms Technology Branch came in today.
Going to sterilize/scan it to my website, but here is the readers digest version:

Saiga-12 and Choate stock: NO, Assault Weapon
"The Saiga shotgun is an imported 12 gauge semiautomatic shotgun. The modification you would like to make would result in the manufacture of a semiautomatic assault weapon"

- despite the fact that Choate says it won't.

Saiga-12 and any mag over 5 rnds: NO, "A shotgun having a magazine capacity of more than 5 shells is prohibited from importation as a sporting firearm under Title 18 United States Code (U. S. C.), § 925(d)(3). Therefore it is a violation Title 18, U. S. C. § 922 ® to assemble such a shotgun from imported parts as provided in Title 27, Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Part 479 (formerly Part 178) § 478.39."



#21 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 06 June 2003 - 09:53 PM

Let's go....the "woods" is fine by me.

Edited by Bvamp, 06 June 2003 - 09:54 PM.

Rockin the Saiga world since 2003

#22 Gunfighter84

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 05:50 PM

Bvamp

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']well an F.U. kindly to you. I live in NY, k? what you DONT seem to know is the only thing you CANT buy here legally is an A-bomb.[/quote]
Ohkay, now I see where the idea that New Yorkers have a bad attitude comes from. I was born in Albany thanks, I wasnt dissing the state. According to state code there seems to be quite a bit you cannot have in New York, but thats just what I read, may be state laws read differently once you're there.

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']Paperwork is a nessecary evil to this country, and I'll tell ya, all those gun laws they have now are fine with me. I do a lot of travelling, and I havent seen the quality or quantity of arms equalled in my state yet.[/quote]
Um, Ok again. I find it a little sour to have to have my rights "granted" to me, and have to jump through hoops for them. As for quality and quantity- er, now is NY a world famous arms producer? That statement didnt make a whole lot of sense, but if you're talking about variety and number, I'd challange you with Nevada, Arizona, and some parts of Idaho, I've seen entire gunshops in Phoenix filled with automatic arms, some of which were incredibly rare.

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']Must be something with that green stuff called money. I can carry anywhere in the state, but why do i want to?[/quote]
Look man, I spent a week in Beijing when I was in College during a semster spent abroad in Japan and I'll tell you that even in Communist China, if you have money, you can have firearms, hell, you can have RPGs. Maybe I aught to post my pics from the Beijing gun-club. I'll wager I've shot arms there you've never even heard of, much less seen in person.

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']what DO i need an AK-47 inside city limits for? no range in a city will let you shoot a rifle anyway unless its taking pistol rounds.[/quote]
That sucks, in Seattle, a liberal bastion if there was one, we've got a couple of good indoor ranges where you can shoot anything below .50 BMG. Personaly I'd say an AKMS is the perfect weapon inside city limits. Compact, reliable, and a lot more practical than some .30-06 or .303. Of course for NY's layout I'd choose a Krinkov or an Uzi-B. Why do you NEED a car, or NEED a computer? You dont, but they're useful tools, just as an AK is. The right tool for the right job.

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']I hear the arguement from the "nuts" out there that if the military can have it...or that uncle sam dont want us to protect ourselves. know what? bullshit. the second amendmant was written in so that congress could cover thier asses during the revolution anyway.[/quote]
Uh, that argument that Americans shouldnt be allowed to protect themselves comes from the anti-gunners, not gun owners themselves. I suggest you do a little bit more research into your own politicians, as Charles Schumer and Carolyn McCarthy are two BIG proponents of civil disarmament and often can be found making such statements as Americans dont need guns as they have the Police and Military to cover them.

As for your assesment of the 2nd Amendment, thats nice- I'd like to hear more on it. I have a BA in Political Science and a MA in history, so I've done some reading on the topic myself. May be you could e-mail me and provide me with the supporting evidence for your statement, considering that the Constitution wasnt even ratified until years after the end of the Revolution, and the Bill of Rights, some years after that....It might interest you to know that the US government between the END of the revolution and the Constitutional convention was governed by a failed (but interesting) political doctrine called the Articles of Confederation...but of course you probably know more about that than I do.

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']furthermore, ya "nuts" out there you DO know why all americans had guns right from the getgo? sorry, it was because congress was BROKE and gave the men thier rifles in lieu of payment and as a thank you for thier military service. gun advocates are fine by me, but some of you just take it way too far.[/quote]
Once again I'd like to see your documented sources on this information, as that information never came up in any of my studies. The way I read it was that most of the Continental Army was supplied with Arms until the French got involved wholesale, by private citizens and gunmakers in the colonies, and furthermore that most Continental soldiers actually showed up for service with their own arms. Once again though I assume you know something I dont and have the proof to back it up.

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']now theres stuff thats "banned". o well i say, theres 600million firearms in the country, and im SURE we will all have plenty of weapons to trade around for many years to come if they banned the sale of them tomorrow.[/quote]
600 million? Wow, where do you get your information? Even the NRA estimates 250m MAX, with the figure of 193 million being generaly accepted as put out by the government. Still, you're right, thats a lot, but you've got to know how prices will skyrocket, and how many of those guns are rusty hunting rifles and nickel-plated "flyaparts" (eg, IJs) from the 19th Century. I'd actually venture a guess that a good percentage of those firearms are neither modern, or servicable. You also fail to acknowledge the fact that the American public is so cowed into letting people tell them what's what, a good number of those arms will be turned in for meltdown as in Australia...

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']the more they find people that illegally modify assualt and military weapons for pleasure or criminal use, the more laws they are gonna make anyway.[/quote]
Um, we've played along with them for years and they still make more laws. When was the last person murdered with a .50 in California? Never, there has never been a single case of murder recorded in California history involving a .50 BMG, and yet they're about a cunthair away from banning them right now.

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']and as for canada...f canada.  I know a bunch of them up there that hunt myself, and THEY wont buy banned stuff. they dont want to lose thier weapons.[/quote]
I'm not talking about hunters. Most hunters play with their guns once a year for a week and then oil 'em and stick them in a closet. For the most part hunters are about as usless to serious shooters and collectors as anti-gunners. I keep up with the gun laws in Canada, as I import a lot of the antiques I collect from BC (A Lee Enfield MkI that goes for $1200 down here can be obtained up north a little ways for less than $200) and like to know what I can and cannot find, and just what I need to do to buy them. Once again, thats another can of worms entirely that I'd be glad to discuss with you some other time, provided you have some real information from sound sources.

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']SO by deduction, im wondering just who you are involved with up there and why you seem to think you wont get in deep doo-doo when you get caught with those guys? the cops are sparse up there is the only reason they havent gotten caught. theres my 2 cents.[/quote]
:) Canadian Rifle Association, a number of Living History organizations, and some good old hillbillies who are cousins of my wife. Who are YOU dealing with?

I wont get in deep doo-doo because no one is out to catch anyone with these weapons. I have working acquaintances in the BATF, I have friends in local and state police, my best friend from my undergraduate years is an FBI agent. all of whom I've discussed ad nauseum this issue. 922r and the AWB is a joke, its an 'add-on' crime. If you get busted for dealing dope or making NFA violation weapons they'll add on a 922 violation, but to this day, no one, not a soul, has been convicted of violating the '94 ban, and I know, for a fact, that there have been several high-profile cases in the past 5 years where a large arms cache was taken in by JBTs and or cops, of which there were NUMEROUS 992 violation weapons, and not one of the cases resulted in a conviction of the perp, on a 922 related article. Piss Uncle Sam off and give him 922 as the only way he can catch you, and yeah, you'll probably get busted, but once again, unless you're a criminal otherwise, it dont matter- no one cares.

[quote name='Bvamp' date='May 31 2003, 07:39 PM']read the law, and obey it, stick together, and maybe we can all keep them from making MORE because of >idiots that dont and wont follow it.[/quote]
Yeah, that tactic works. Lets stick our heads in the sand, kiss the asses of our opponents, and everything will be allright. Thats worked VERY well for every group in history that has ever tried it.

The only idiot is one who's freedoms are a gift from the government, bestowed on them for being good little subjects. People who think like that dont deserve any rights-

I'm just glad to see that I'm sticking my ass on the line for people so willing to stand up for, and excercise their God given rights and freedoms.

Spec.R.G.Anderson
C Co. 1/303rd Armor, USAR.

#23 SaltPeter

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 06:34 PM

Gunfighter84
Thank you for responding to Bvamp's rediculous post. I wanted to do it myself but I just couldn't find the time and energy to sit down and pen it properly, because I knew to do so would mean writing a pretty long essay. Good job. It's passive and submissive gun owners that allowed all of these stupid bans get passed in the first place. Being complacent in this day and age will just make it worse.
You can only get so dead. You can't get any deader.

#24 loandr.

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 07:15 PM

http://www.gunsnet.n...threadid=122717

that should answer it :-)
loandr.

#25 adam7373

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 08:52 PM

Hey Gunfigther,
I would like to see some pics of the Bejing gun club. Sounds interesting.

#26 Gunfighter84

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Posted 11 June 2003 - 11:08 PM

I'll dig them out and scan them in ASAP. Got a pic of a little old lady shooting a quad AA gun, I think its a 14.5mm. The range was incredible, and the fact that I saw numerous SKSs, Type-68s, etc, come in with (private?) citizens slung over shoulders or on bicycle handlebars amazed me. They were all People's Militia, but membership in the PM, which was manditory for gun ownership, was about like getting NRA membership. From how it was explained to me, even foreigners could join (!) Communism knows no political boundaries Comrade?

<shrugs>

I'll get on 'em.

#27 Ben Vampatella

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Posted 13 June 2003 - 03:00 PM

SaltPeter
Gunfighter84
first off, thank you both for serving our country....

:) boy do i love pissing in ppl's oatmeal :) but i tell ya, i have my rights because i havent done anything to get them taken away from me. my point was that this isnt the wild west anymore, and now you have things like serial killers, gangs, etc etc, and i just think there should be some form of checking on who you are before you can leave with that machinegun or whatever. and as for shooting indoors, i dont do it. gun ranges are no fun other than meeting other shooters. im not comfortable with the thought of some pissed off guy chasing someone down that just robbed them with a weapon that will go through them, the car in back of them, and into my house. and im not passive with gun laws, i vote against any that come up. but still, 100 years ago is a lot different than the world we live in today. you miss my whole point i think when you assumed too much about what i was saying. and is not filing the sear down on my rifles being submissive? how about not sticking a bayonet on my 870? thats not being submissive is it? but wait, explain why i need to do that anyway? If you own a gun store or are a cop or are in the military, you have a reason, and you are exempt with proper paperwork. what about if there were no paperwork? how about a crooked gun dealer that sells anything to gang members? almost everyone else dont have a reason and again, this isnt the wild west nor is it china or canada. nor is it a warzone. and if there is a war here ever in the USA, its going to be a race war probably and what i have will work fine in that case. then laws i wont care about. but thats not whats happening here is it? you missed my entire point i think. you dont use an automatic weapon for home defense. who are you defending against exactly? and dont you have any neighbors? i mean come on, you guys have problems putting mags in ak types. *I* dont want you to be my neighbor and get shot because you decided FMJ 7.62 or solid slugs in your 12 was your best bet to defend your home. you arent the only one on the planet you know. THAT is my point, and you missed it obviously.
Rockin the Saiga world since 2003

#28 Lagomorph

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 02:52 AM

I have a bayonet on my 870. As well as a heatshield, pistolgrip speed feedstock, recoil reducer, magazine extention, and combat sling. Im gonna put a rail on it too so i can mount a reflex sight on it. As for my saiga im gonna put a pistol grip on it regardless of the law, and im gonna trim the barrel down to eight-teen inches (including the choke (gonna weld that sucker on (like ar barrels with the long flash suppressors))), as well as make some high capacity magazinesfor it. Assault weapon ban sucks. Patriot Act sucks. Patriot act 2 will suck. Any other bans, laws, restrictions are gonna suck. The government sucks. Anybody they put in office sucks. No body in any political party supports my ideas. The government by nature want to take our rights even if they think its in the best intrest. With the president sending our troops on a crusade in the middle east for weapons of "mass destuction" that dont seem to exist, al queda smashing plains into buildings, and a crazy korean with his finger over the launch button of God knows how many nuclear missles, i'm going to leave nothing to chance. These times are the most dangerous and resticting civilians with so many laws is folly. So I plan to make my saiga as cool, functional, and as reliable as posible, and i dont care what anybody thinks, nor can anybody stop me, but most of all no one should care, least of all my fellow Americans. When the shit hits the fan, and it IS going to hit the fan, believe me when i say i'm gonna be prepared and try to dodge as much splater as possible. All my friends say when the government falls, they are all coming over to my house because i have the guns. By the way I know many people with many acres of land in the middle of nowhere. So i and my friends can go shooting without fear of being interrupted. As for the lawenforcement officers in this forum i'm sure they understand (ive read lots of their posts). Saltpeter and Gunfighter, yall keep doing your thing, ill back you guys 110%. As for home defense, slugs and fmj bullets wouldn't be my first pick, but when it comes to survival anything goes. As for my neighbors "some fellas are lucky and some aint." - Steve Buscemi, Reservoir Dogs.

#29 armyboy

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Posted 08 August 2003 - 04:10 PM

when the ban "sunsets"
does that mean that the 12k is available for civ. use?
i won't mind owning two of these things

p.s.
am i the only one who thinks A.K.s are more fun to shoot than A.R.s

#30 SaltPeter

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Posted 10 August 2003 - 09:57 PM

armyboy

When the ban sunsets, the Saiga 12K will still be a short barrelled shotgun. The ban does not cover these, as the Gun Control Act of 1968 regulates them. However, the Saiga 12C, which has a folding stock, pistol grip, 8 round magazine, and 18" barrel, will be legal for civilian sale. Just like the old days when you could buy other military look-alikes.
You can only get so dead. You can't get any deader.




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