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Mindfork

Titanium drill bits not going through metal

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Drilling out the rivets wasn't too bad, but now that I am on the trigger guard spot weld: http://www.cross-conn.com/Saiga_Conversion/Step_3.htm

my drill bits won't go all the way through. The best I've managed is to make a very smooth and shiny divet. I'm using dish soap as a lubricant, but actually seem to get more metal shavings without any lube.

 

Any tips on drilling this hole? These are titanium, NOT cheap drill bits.

 

Thanks,

MF

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I want to say that I have yet to "drill a rivet". The rivets holding the Rube Goldberg fire control stuff in can be punched out like any other rivet.

 

The rivet you are currently having trouble with is easily ground off from the bottom of the plate, after you get the plate off. I didn't see any reason to drill a hole in it, so I just stuck that end under my mag catch tower and screwed the other end in under the pistol grip.

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#1 choice is a carbide end mill - which will work in a drill press.

Try a cobalt bit or carbide anything like a masonry bit (the ones with the carbide piece in the tip).

Titanium Nitride coating only goes so far and are just a step up from HSS.

 

If that all fails, bust out the torch. :smoke:

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on my 7.62x39 i went through 3 drill bits. On my .410 when i got to that part i took a torch and heated (anealled) the spot weld then drilled through it wjile it was still hot

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I went through zero, I bought a 135* cobalt bit from ACE and used cutting fluid...

 

Titanium jobber bits are crap 118* bits...

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Hmm...guess a trip to town for a cobalt bit is needed, then. Bummer. I was able to get the front and back rivets drilled out easily enough, but that DAMN spot weld is tougher than the overpriced titanium bits I bought. I can't take the whole plate off and work on it, either, because I can't get to the rivet under the trigger guard until it is removed. Here's a pic of where I'm stuck at

 

Whatever they spot welded that with is apparently harder than steel.

 

By the way, I'm doing this with limited tools, so no blow torch option for me.

 

Thanks for the input everyone,

MF

Edited by MindFork

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The carbide bit did the job and got a hole through, BUT THE DAMN THING IS STILL ATTACHED. "Spot weld"?? How big is the "spot"? I managed to widen the hole a little with the titanium bits, but the thing will NOT budge loose.

 

This is a year 2000 s-12 -- maybe back then they welded it on as more than just a spot?

 

The only thing I can think of is to drill out the rivet that is covered by the trigger guard from the inside and just be REAL careful not to damage anything inside the receiver. Anybody else have another idea?

 

Thanks,

MF

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Well, I decided to just bend the trigger guard forward and snap it off. I can still weld it in place with what is left. (JB weld, actually...) It was a bit rash, but I was so fuckin fed up with that weld that I just couldn't take it any more.

 

Time to cut the PG nut hole now, and after that it should be smooth sailing... I hope.

 

Thanks again everyone.

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Well, I decided to just bend the trigger guard forward and snap it off. I can still weld it in place with what is left. (JB weld, actually...) It was a bit rash, but I was so fuckin fed up with that weld that I just couldn't take it any more.

 

Time to cut the PG nut hole now, and after that it should be smooth sailing... I hope.

 

Thanks again everyone.

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Yeah after a 3/32" hole I usually open them up to about 3/16", then chisel it off.

It usually pops without much resistance.

 

Sometimes those spot welds are 1/4" wide.

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I'll remember that for the future if I do another conversion. I kind of wish I had just snapped that little bastard off from the start -- would have saved me hours of frustration, and it's been the only *really* hard part of the conversion so far. Dremmeling the PG nut hole was actually kind of fun, but took a while because I was being incredibly cautious.

 

Yeah after a 3/32" hole I usually open them up to about 3/16", then chisel it off.

It usually pops without much resistance.

 

Sometimes those spot welds are 1/4" wide.

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I'll remember that for the future if I do another conversion. I kind of wish I had just snapped that little bastard off from the start -- would have saved me hours of frustration, and it's been the only *really* hard part of the conversion so far. Dremmeling the PG nut hole was actually kind of fun, but took a while because I was being incredibly cautious.

 

Yeah after a 3/32" hole I usually open them up to about 3/16", then chisel it off.

It usually pops without much resistance.

 

Sometimes those spot welds are 1/4" wide.

Sorry I didnt see this post sooner when I got to that part I just stuck a chisel under it and a couple of taps with a hammer and there she went good luck with the rest Karl

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If I do a future conversion I'll probably take the entire thing off, get a new trigger guard before hand and a tapped plate for the four rivet holes... just screw the thing together...

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I'll remember that for the future if I do another conversion. I kind of wish I had just snapped that little bastard off from the start -- would have saved me hours of frustration, and it's been the only *really* hard part of the conversion so far. Dremmeling the PG nut hole was actually kind of fun, but took a while because I was being incredibly cautious.

 

Yeah after a 3/32" hole I usually open them up to about 3/16", then chisel it off.

It usually pops without much resistance.

 

Sometimes those spot welds are 1/4" wide.

Sorry I didnt see this post sooner when I got to that part I just stuck a chisel under it and a couple of taps with a hammer and there she went good luck with the rest Karl

 

Big +1, chisel it up good! if you are planning on reusing the TG then the hole in it is a good thing beforehand

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Titanium nitride coatings are very hard and are applied to prevent tool wear. They won't make the drill metal underneath the coating any harder especially if the bits are 'made in China'. This is why they are good for tool steel or harder tools.

 

Use a cobalt bit with cutting fluid or oil.

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Yea, cobalt did the trick, but I only bought one bit and the spot weld was still in tact. I figured out a work-around (snapping it off) and for the next conversion, I'll come better prepared.

 

The conversion is all done -- just need to pick up some locktite blue for the PG nut, because when I test fired yesterday, the grip came loose. I definitely like the new configuration, and the G2 trigger feels excellent.

 

Thanks everyone for the help and all the great information on this board.

 

MF

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I figured out a work-around (snapping it off) and for the next conversion,

As mentioned above, I converted my Saiga last week, and chiseled the whole trigger guard off, leaving it all intact and with NO hole in one of the tabs[has a weld in it]. I stuck that end under the mag catch tower and screwed the other end into the trigger guard hole by the pistol grip, and it is nice and solid.

 

I'm re-replying because I don't think I explained myself very well earlier.

Edited by nalioth

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The term "Titanium" drill bits is misleading. As uzitiger stated, it is a titanium nitride coating, generally over cheap high speed dill bits(usually Chinese) and are a waste of money in my opinion.

 

You're way better off to buy Cobalt drill bits and don't go over about 400 RPM's or you can overheat the drill which causes it to dull which causes the metal to workharden if you continue to drill with it.

I think that is the major problem most people have, is running the drill too fast and continuing to drill once the bit is dull. It only takes a few seconds once the bit is dull for it to workharden the metal.

Go slow, use a little cutting oil , and keep the drill cutting. Once it stops cutting or squeals, stop, and continue with a sharp bit.

Ask me how i know..............................

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+1 on the Cobalt drills. I bought some a couple of years ago for a aproject and am happy I kept them. Does go to show the toughness of Russian steel. I ended up chiseling off the spot weld on the trigger plate though, too touch for even cobalt it seems. I had no luck with carbide masonry drills. they refused to cut.

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+ however many other said to go with cobalt.

 

I get them at the harware stor for about $3 each. I have some spares because even the little ones break, but I have not really worn one out. A rule of thumb is to have a few spare of a couple sizes that you need: 7/ something and 5/ something (I don't know the size off hand) When drilling a rivet, I use a coarse file to flatten the rivet head, then a punch to make a good indent in the exact center (hit it a few times to make it deep) If your a little off that ok, just tap toward center. The I use the smaller bit, then the larger, and often chisel the head off. On a project like the saiga, even though I have not done it yet, it looks easy compared to a full build. I've done a bunch of full builds. TAKE YOUR TIME! Use cutting oil as well.

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This is what I use.

 

51R5VkG0hVL._AA128_.jpg

 

They are called Lathe Mill CENTER DRILL COUNTERSINK Bits

 

$10.

 

They cut through the rivets and the spot weld on the trigger plate with ease (using a drill press, I don't use a hand drill).

 

Good luck.

Edited by oldandslow

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+1 on cobalt bits. They cut through that weld like a hot knife through butter, I didn't even hardly have to push on the drill lol. Great bits but expensive (3-4 bucks a pop)

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For my latest conversion... Number 8 for me... I used NOTHING BUT A DREMEL for the WHOLE conversion.. just because I could... I bought one of those pointy STEEL cutting tips. I think they are cobalt, or some other holy shit harder than hell metal used to cut and trim and what have you for steel and other hard metals. It worked right through it, but as it was very narrow I had to work it around and a round to widen the hole at the spot-weld. The rest of the rivets I used a large cutting disk and took them right off in seconds. With a couple small screwdrivers, a spring hook tool and a dremel, ANYONE can do a total conversion!!

 

Although after doing 7... number 8 was a walk in the park, knowing what to do, how and when... Read the tech section through... its ALL THERE!

 

 

:smoke:

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This is what I use.

 

51R5VkG0hVL._AA128_.jpg

 

They are called Lathe Mill CENTER DRILL COUNTERSINK Bits

 

$10.

 

They cut through the rivets and the spot weld on the trigger plate with ease (using a drill press, I don't use a hand drill).

 

Good luck.

 

 

Actually, those are 60 degree centerdrills. Mostly, they're used for creating a 60 degree tapered hole in the end of round stock for the point of a center on a lathe.

 

That said, they work great for removing rivets. I'd use a carbide version to cut spot welds though.

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I just drilled out the spot weld with regular HSS bits. I first ground the top of the weld with a dremel and small diameter stone to remove the surface hardening. Then a small diameter pilot bit at high speed with oil ( around .065"), then a full size bit (.165"). This was very easy with no drama involved. I would just make sure the bits were sharp.

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