This pisses me off to no end

[dayanx 1]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/kprc/20071210/lo_kprc/14813727

 

An anonymous death threat was made against the Harris County District Attorney's Office and police said it was connected to a case of a homeowner accused of killing two burglary suspects at his neighbor's house, KPRC Local 2 reported Monday.

 

Officials said the caller threatened to kill Joe Horn, the homeowner, if the district attorney does not charge him with a crime.

 

Pasadena police said Joe Horn shot Hernando Torres and Diego Ortiz as they ran away from a home they broke into in the 7400 block of Timberline in the Village Grove East subdivision on Nov. 14.

 

The caller left a voice mail at the district attorney's public integrity division. The recording lasted for several minutes. The caller did not leave his name.

 

"What you better do -- you better indict Joe Horn and you better find him guilty," the caller said. "If you don't, somebody's going to kill him. They're waiting on him in prison and we're waiting on him on the outside. Let me tell you something -- we're going to kill that (expletive). Bye."

 

Pasadena Capt. Bud Corbett said the caller left the threatening voice mail on Monday.

 

The district attorney's office has not yet received Horn's case from Pasadena police to determine if charges will be filed. Police are still reviewing the case.

 

"Obviously, there's a rather dramatic public debate on it and it is a rather monumental case, and it's always important to do a quality control review. But, it's probably more the pressing issue in a case of this magnitude," Corbett said.

 

A supporter of Horn's has created the site, joehornformyneighbor.com. The site urges people to leave supportive comments if they believe Horn was justified in shooting the men.

 

An autopsy revealed that the men were shot in the back. Investigators said a plainclothes officer witnessed the shootings and saw the two men crossing Horn's yard. One ran away while the other angled toward Horn and then ran away, the officer said.

 

Torres and Ortiz were in the United States illegally, detectives said.

 

Horn told police he shot the men in self-defense.

 

Police are expected to turn over evidence from their investigation to the district attorney's office in about a week. A grand jury will decide if Horn will face any criminal charges.

 

Community activist Quanell X and Torres' fianc?e have said they want Horn to face murder charges.

 

Horn's attorney said his client, who is retired, does not have money needed to support his defense if he is charged. There is a link on joehornformyneighbor.com for supporters to donate money if it is needed.

 

Horn's attorney took the case free of charge.

 

Horn has not been living at his Pasadena home because of all the controversy surrounding the case.

 

 

I swear the country is going completely sideways

[TheGunHustler 3]

that is so fucked up i hope they find the ass hole that left the message and charge him with makeing a death threat. they should not charge joe he was doing this country a favor.

Edited December 11, 2007 by TheGunHustler

[Gaddis 1,689]

Um, seems like they can "trace" people pretty easily if you were to phone in a fake bomb threat to a school or something.

 

I can't see how this case could be any more difficult.

[Twinsen 86]

Oh no, a white guy killed two criminal mexicans! He must be some sort of racist KKK member!

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Man that's so fucked up! Any illegal alien, from Mexico or anywhere else that is involved in a crime in the US, I don't care how small it is, whether it's B&E or just plain shoplifting, should be shot on sight! They are already doing enough damage to our country just being here and being protected by pur corrupt system, they should not get away with any kind of crime. Deporting them is not the answer either, they will just come back and bring more with them.

This poor guy was just protecting his home from a growing problem and now he will be made an example of in the media and someone will eventually get to him.

[DaGroaner 2]

They were Colombians with criminal histories. Probably drug cartel types. The fact is that Joe Horn did the world a big favor. Anyone had enough of the drug war yet? How about we let free people live free lives and stop enriching and empowering criminals?

[Koliadko 207]

This is wrong on so many levels. I mean this guy said in prison or not they were going to kill the guy. I'm so sick of these people coming here trying to run and ruin our country. They've allowed their country fall apart and now they want to come do it to ours. Over my dead body.

[loki0629 55]

All I can say is that it's damn hard to justify self defense when the guys are shot in the back. Seems like a while back that's exactly what Vang was claiming when he shot those hunters.

[nalioth 405]

All I can say is that it's damn hard to justify self defense when the guys are shot in the back. Seems like a while back that's exactly what Vang was claiming when he shot those hunters.

Not sure what time it is, but it's really quick and easy to pull a gun from your bag or pants and turn around and shoot......

 

Edited to add: It's also quite easy to pull a knife and run at you to do any dirty deeds. It's called the 21 foot rule.

 

 

 

 

 

These guys were committing a felony. Mr. Horn went out expecting the worst. Since the guys didn't drop their baggage and throw themselves spreadeagled on the ground (iow, becoming less threatening), I'm sure he could only assume they meant him ill.

 

If indeed it turns out they were gang members, they probably would have had no problem beating or killing Mr. Horn if given the chance.

Edited December 11, 2007 by nalioth

[loki0629 55]

This is probably going to have to be decided by jury. It didn't help that he called 911 and told the operator he was going to kill them before heading out with his shotgun. It basically doesn't strike me as a legitimate use of deadly force but I wasn't there and I'm not familiar with Texas law. Even if he escapes criminal trial it still sounds like there's a basis for civil litigation, which most likely has a lower threshold for burden of proof. Again, that will depend on state law though.

Either way, this is exactly the scenario I would avoid. If there's no need to go out, I'm not doing it. They can have the car, they can have my lawn ornaments, but I'm not pulling the trigger unless they are forcing their way into the house and ignoring my warnings about being armed.

 

Regardless of how you feel about the two men that were shot, you ought to remember that there are more ways to have your life ruined than you can imagine once you go out there and seek to confront them. There is criminal law and then there is civil law. Most people tend to think of self-defense in terms of making sure that they are within the boundaries of criminal law but neglect the civil aspect of it. The civil law is what will hand over everything you currently own and everything you may ever earn in your lifetime to a criminal's family. At least in NJ it is. It varies from state to state.

 

Is your life and your family's physical and financial security worth it? Is your life as you know it a fair trade for the life of one or two dirtbags?

 

I did something similar a few years ago and I think several things saved my ass:

The fact that I never once left the physical boundaries of my property, that my handgun was properly registered, and I had a clear record. Never mind the fact that I didn't discharge or point the weapon at what I thought were criminals trying to steal my car. Yes, the police did come but they were coming for me.

 

I've had plenty of time to think about that situation and know that next time, I'm staying inside my house, gathering my family in one room, and calling the police. I will remain inside and wait while they check the outside.

 

All I can say about Mr. Horn's situation is that "There but for the grace of God go I."

 

I sincerely wish him the best of luck.

[nalioth 405]

There is criminal law and then there is civil law. Most people tend to think of self-defense in terms of making sure that they are within the boundaries of criminal law but neglect the civil aspect of it. The civil law is what will hand over everything you currently own and everything you may ever earn in your lifetime to a criminal's family. At least in NJ it is. It varies from state to state.

Texas recently passed a law on this, that says if you are in this situation and no-billed, you cannot be taken to civil court for the same event.

<snip>that my handgun was properly registered,

Thankfully, we don't have gun registration in Texas.

All I can say about Mr. Horn's situation is that "There but for the grace of God go I."

 

I sincerely wish him the best of luck.

So say we all...

[Paladin 37]

I don't want to wiz in anyone's wheaties here, but I think Mr. Horn screwed up.

 

First, if these were illegal, gang bangers then I'm glad they got their A$$'s shot. I'm jealous that I didn't get to do it.

 

But, the problem lies in the fact that they weren't robbing his house or threating him. As already pointed out, he called 911 and then stated that he was going to go out and stop them. The dispatcher tells him NOT to go outside, the police are enroute. He says he's going to go out anyway and shoot them. He goes out and shoots them as they are running away. Comes back and tells the dispatcher that he shot them. He's in deep $hit.

 

Most juries aren't going to buy self defense when he went outside against instructions and shot two people in the back as they ran, to protect property that wasn't even his.

 

If you're going to take out a dirtbag, do it in such a way that you won't go to jail. Personally, I'm not going to get in a gun fight over my neighbors old stereo. They could have been armed to the teeth. If I ever have the misfortune to get in a firefight I hope it's for a good cause.

[G O B 3,516]

We seldom get the truth. BUT it does not help his cause if he told the RECORDED 911 operator what it is reported he said. Like I say at this point it is he said/she said. I hope all comes out allright.

[dayanx 1]

I agree, had the situation been the same but he just dropped the phone and commenced firing- we might not have pissed off ex cons grubbing for money in lieu of decrying racism. (Quanel X)

[Pointer 21]

If he really meant to kill them,why did he even call 911? This is a perfect example of how pissed we as citizens are getting at scumbags that steal/rob and murder us.Joe Horn could no longer sit by and do nothing as two habitual illegal scum broke into a neighbors home sanctuary,he wasnt about to let them get away with it....one way or the other."Reality check" I try and put myself in this senerio..would i try and stop them by force (Shotgun,willing to kill)if i didnt know the neighbor ...likely not.If i new the neighbor well?...likely. Would i be willing to shoot them if they came toward me acting in a manner to do me harm..definetly! Would i shoot them in the back while they were running away...no.Theres so many variables of what could/might have happened.Personally,im more than glad there dead..but im not the one who has to deal with the repercussions of taking two lives either.

[dayanx 1]

Where's Paul Kersey when you need him...?

[getitat 609]

Hello, All

There were many aspects of this that could have been handled differently, as GunnyR pointed out.

However, a couple of important points:

 

Texas now is a "Castle Doctrine" state. Those crimigrant thugs were shot (very effectively, I might add...) in Mr. Horn's yard. They made the ill-fated decision to park where they crossed Mr. Horn's yard to enter the neighbor's residence (which I assume is how Mr. Horn noticed them in the first place) and then crossed his yard again to leave. If the Castle Doctrine holds up to legal scrutiny like I hope, then Mr. Horn had known criminals in his yard (castle) and may have taken legally justifiable action. He would not have to prove that his life or safety were being jeopordized, just that he feared they were in his yard with bad intentions.

 

Second, as Cobra alluded to, I have this notion (may not stand up to legal scrutiny, but it ought to.....) that the rights of any citizen of this great Nation supercedes any "presumed" rights of a non-citizen occupying this Country illegally. I believe that would be the legal stance if Mr. Horn were in Columbia preying on the citizenry there. Ditto if it were Mexico.

'Bout time we got past this "get our arms around the entire world and embrace them" bullshit. Maybe more like a "rear-naked choke" than an embrace would be appropriate....

 

And if this case does nothing else, at least we got to see Quanell the tenth get dis'ed and totally shouted down, to retreat to his Hummer with his pathetic, racist tail between his legs, on local and hopefully, National news. 'Bout time!

 

Just wish I had a neighbor like Joe Horn....Hope I have the 'nad's to be like him if the situation calls for it.

 

To my new Hero, Joe Horn....

 

guido2 in Houston

[RangerM9 1]

[Willie D 2]

Here's the call:

 

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/audio/play/51381/

 

 

 

Frankly, I think he screwed up. He could have shot a cop. And if he absolutely had to be a vigilante he shouldn't have left a record of himself doing so.

[Paladin 37]

On a side note, Quanell X is a racist piece of $hit that thinks the worlds problems can be solved by killing all the white people-He was interviewed on T.V. where he would not denounce that very proposal by another idiot that spoke after Katrina. Thats called genocide people. If anyone wants to do the country a favor......

 

I've got black friends that are just as disgusted with him as I am.

Edited December 13, 2007 by Paladin

[Bvamp 604]

it was broad daylight, he stated he was prepared to kill the two, and didnt see any weapon, etc etc.

 

the guy is a pussy. he shoulda if he wanted to stop anything, been ready to attempt to take the guys down while coming out of the house, and THEN when they came at him, shot them dead then. instead he basically sounds like he just went a gunnin for a crook that wasnt causing a deadly threat. now, if he had attempted to make a citizen's arrest (which he was legitimately allowed to do), and something happened, then he could have dropped them both dead then and there. instead it sounds to me like he gave no warning, and just told the guys "yer dead" and started shooting.

 

BUT - screw both of those illegal immigrants. now an american goes to prison because someone thinks its ok for them to illegally come into this country and rob us all blind, in more ways than one. he shoulda shot them as they were exiting the window, and not while on the phone.

[DaGroaner 2]

it was broad daylight, he stated he was prepared to kill the two, and didnt see any weapon, etc etc.

 

the guy is a pussy. he shoulda if he wanted to stop anything, been ready to attempt to take the guys down while coming out of the house, and THEN when they came at him, shot them dead then. instead he basically sounds like he just went a gunnin for a crook that wasnt causing a deadly threat. now, if he had attempted to make a citizen's arrest (which he was legitimately allowed to do), and something happened, then he could have dropped them both dead then and there. instead it sounds to me like he gave no warning, and just told the guys "yer dead" and started shooting.

 

BUT - screw both of those illegal immigrants. now an american goes to prison because someone thinks its ok for them to illegally come into this country and rob us all blind, in more ways than one. he shoulda shot them as they were exiting the window, and not while on the phone.

 

Yeah right. He did effect a citizen's arrest. Maybe not to your liking for whatever reason. If the lady of the house happened to come across those two in while they were ransacking her house what do you suppose her fate would have been? One thing is for sure, those two will never pose a threat to anyone's life or property ever again. Moral of the story: Don't invade people's homes and they and/or their neighbors won't shoot your stupid ass. Joe Horn did the right thing. The police officer that witnessed the shooting even said that one of them ran closer to Horn's position when was shot, 7-10 feet. What's that 21 foot rule all about again? We don't know the precise timing and positioning of the perps and the tape sounded to me like he said "Move and you're dead" and there was a delay before the first shot was fired. I don 't think there's anything brave about opening yourself up to make it more fair for the criminals. In fact I think that's sheer idiocy. I think Joe Horn stopped felons who were commiting a crime. "Nothing to see here, move along now" should be the order of the day for law enforcement on this matter.

[Bvamp 604]

no, he didnt effect any citizens arrest. Ive done one myself.

 

go listen to the phone call. the ONLY words that guy said when he got outside was "YER DEAD". NOT "I am placing you under citizens arrest for burgulary" which is the legal manner of doing that. Ive used it twice. once when someone was beating up thier girlfriend in a parking lot, and there were three of us that grabbed the guy, and once when I stopped a robbery without firing a shot. I heard nothing of the sort in the 911 call. you want to enforce the law yourself? FOLLOW THE LAW. OTHERWISE LEAVE IT TO THE COPS AND CALL 911!

 

and now, if you would like to argue some more about it, Im up for it....

[HateTheSnow 29]

What pisses me off is all the folks like Quanell X that jump into the fray to spew out a bunch of crap about the "rights" that were violated while someone was committing a felony. It's about damn time more of us start standing up and saying WTF!

 

In this country illegally = no rights

Committing a felony = no rights

In prison for any of the above = no rights

 

Something bad happens to you while you have "no rights"...deal with it, it's YOUR problem, NOT ours! The fact is you did something (most likely violent) against someone you shouldn't have done; so you don't have the right to sue for damages, free health care, cable-tv in prison, or anything else for that matter.

 

Back to the guy who shot the burglars, I listened to the tape and it does sound like he's on thin ice with the self-defense argument. Do I have a problem with them being killed, no, but the fact is even an LEO (on or off duty) would be facing some serious issues on this one. But, I see what this guy did and what happened to the "would be" robbers as seperate issues...no reason to mix the two in an attempt to diminish the crime these two illegal aliens were committing.

 

That said, I'm now stepping down from the soap box

[Koliadko 207]

Damn, I've missed alot while I've been moving. I personally think Horn did this great country a service. I hope he gets off and if I have to, I'll send a couple of bucks for his defense fund. And does anyone know if he knew these guys hadn't already offed his neighbors before running off? You can't know what was going through his mind so I'll wait to make a legal judgment call.

[HateTheSnow 29]

And does anyone know if he knew these guys hadn't already offed his neighbors before running off? You can't know what was going through his mind so I'll wait to make a legal judgment call.

 

You are absolutely on the mark. There are a lot of "unknowns" in this case, even after you listen to the 911 tapes. We don't know what happened inside the neighbors house, how the confrontation in the yard went down, or how half a dozen other things took place.

 

BUT, this guy did protray himself on the 911 tapes as wanting to stop these guys however he could, and he did nothing to hide the fact he was willing to shoot to kill. I'm not arguing whether the a$$holes deserved it or not, I personally could care less they were killed in the commission of a home robbery. IMO, what he did wrong was stay on with the 911 operator WAY TOO LONG and say WAY TOO MUCH!

 

He would be much better off if he had just reported the break in, gave the address, and said "Oh my God, they're coming on my property, get someone here now..." <click>

 

Dead men tell no tales!

Edited December 14, 2007 by FLTF3

[Bvamp 604]

let me know if it becomes legal to declare open war without declaration on illegals here. Ill be the first to open fire....

[Bvamp 604]

if you have time to say "yer dead" and wait a second or two or more, then shoot twice, then carefully aim and shoot the next guy, you are in the wrong. period.

 

if you have to act in a situation like that, how it COULD be described, you dont have time to say YER DEAD, and pull the trigger twice, then take a few seconds and shoot again.

 

the one guy was more than likely crossing his yard sorta kinda tword him, trying to make the front gate to get away.

 

 

f em either way. less people breathing my air. the two burgulars that were shot in broad daylight wouldnt have been out stealing my work, and werent stealing from me or my neighbor, and dont sound l;ike they were in any way threatening, so o well. I think we should shoot em all, but I dont think that we should just come out the front door blazing away at any opportunity.

 

he SHOULD have stepped to the side of the window, and helped the first one out of the house via the buttstock of hs shotgun to the illegals' heads. THEN he mighta got away with it.

 

note to self : dont be on the phone at any point in time during a killing. regardless of what one sees, is threatened by, or thinks, it is what is heard that matters....and what you will be judged by your peers by.

[dayanx 1]

unfortunately, the coroner released a report saying both perps were shot in the back. Horn is toast.

[Bvamp 604]

as I said.

 

broad daylight, texas, stated intent previous, etc etc.

 

I dont know what everyone is agrueing about.

 

If I could go around shooting every illegal i saw, regardless of what law they broke, be it selling grass, speeding, tressapssing, income tax evasion, burgulary, O I WOULD.

 

this guy is toast. he mighta had a CHANCE if he had not said what he did to the cops. phone or no, he is screwed.

 

If illegals were open season, I would be first in line, trust me on that one. Im just waiting for when or if they ever are.

 

unfortunately, this man was wrong in his intent, his practices, and his actions. hes fucked.