johnnymceldoo 0 Posted November 29, 2004 Report Share Posted November 29, 2004 (edited) I finally was able to tune my gas port to fix my short stroking problem. I started getting the short stroking problem when I shortened my barrel to 17" and welded my FH on to make it 18.5" overall. The ports measured around .073 from the factory. I took it to .08 and it still did it. Then I opened it up to .086 with the same problem. Finally it worked right after opening the ports up to .095. Occasionaly the last round would get caught while ejecting but I think that is a seperate issue. In this pic the handgaurd is off and the gas tube adjusting nut is off as well. Behind the nut is a small piston with two grooves cut into it. So I guess the saiga does use a two part piston. You can see the two pin locations on the gas block that are vertical to one another. Take these two pins out to get your block off. Once you have the pins out and yours is like mine you will have to beat the block downward towards the muzzle with a mallet. Once this is done you can see there are 3 ports in a triangular configuration. These are acually drilled at an angle sloping downward towards the muzzle. Dont forget to take the gas nut detent and spring out after you get the top pin out. They are easy to lose With the gas block moved forward the gas tube can be removed. It will slide off in the same motion or axis as the block did. The only thing that holds the tube on is pressure from the block. I also tested my target loads in the 1 gas nut postition(for heavy loads) and it short cycled. Then I tested 3" 00 in the same postion and it cycled just fine. Hope this helps some of you out. ETA: I ended up opening the ports to .110 for reliable function with light loads. I broke the gap through one set of holes just barely though with the dramic increase in hole size so do this at your own risk. I have not had any problems however. Edited May 26, 2005 by johnnymceldoo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnnymceldoo 0 Posted December 7, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 *bump* I saw some of you guys asking about handgaurd and gas tube removal and thought this might help. The handgaurd comes off by removing the screw that holds on sling the mount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Integratedj 1 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Any chance you have an ultimak upper that you can checl to see if it can be modified to put on in place of the existing tube? That would be freaking sweet to have on there. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tiny 2 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnnymceldoo 0 Posted December 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Any chance you have an ultimak upper that you can checl to see if it can be modified to put on in place of the existing tube? That would be freaking sweet to have on there. I dont have an utilmak upper. Do you mean retrofit the handagaurd to the saiga or gas tube? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Integratedj 1 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 I mean, to take the ultimak Gas tube rail, see if it will fit in place, Modify as neccessary, thread the barrel end so it takes the gas system, and then put it in in place of the old gas tube, that way we could now have an upper rail for attaching red dots to with out having some clamp on crap, or weld marks. Would be freaking awsome. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Prophet 1 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 Ultimak is working on Saiga-12 stuff, but they are not ready for release yet. -P. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) If they make one for the S12, I will DEFINATELY buy one. I love the one I have on my SAR1. the part will not work as is on a S12, i dont think, but it is close. they should have no trouble making a new spec part for the s12. Edited December 8, 2004 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Integratedj 1 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 If it is the lower that they just released for $220 for the standard AK, then they can keep it. I already have attached all of the lower rail system that I need. I want an upper, but I doubt they will make something that is as involved as taking off the gas block and doing all of the above mentioned work that could end up in someone screwing up, getting hurt, and then trying to sue. The best they will probably do, is make the lower, then make an upper that screws into it, so you have to buy both in order for it all to work right. Even then the upper rail would sit to high for some of us to accept. If only all of the arsenals we buy from would ask us what we want on our civi guns, and then actually listen and do. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 (edited) the ultimak I have on my SAR1, I tell ya, I would want it if I were in combat with a weapon that could use it. I like the dot out front the way the ultimak puts it out there. I dont think ive shot a faster rifle with an optic on it than mine with the ultimak. it is JUST as fast if not FASTER than open iron sights, and seems more accurate on snap firing from an unready position. like i said, if ultimak makes one for the s12, i will DEFINATELY buy one. the only thing quicker in my opinion is iron sights (which I can see easily through my optic, by the way) or a computer doing the shooting. Edited December 8, 2004 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Integratedj 1 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 I'm a lot faster with my Ultimak and trijicon reflex setup. A lot more accurate on fast shots too. Anywhere from 10 to 300 yrds and the target is in trouble. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 you know it.......it should be standard on all high-end AK types. that optic out front does wonders, I tell ya..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Tomac 0 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 I'll pass on the Ultimak. You can't remove the gas tube and w/optics mounted adds too much weight up front (IMHO). The PK-AS that I prefer on my AKs & Saigas keeps the optics weight at the balance point of the weapon, is fully QD w/o loss of zero and irons are always available for backup. However, it's nice that there are so many options available so each of us can choose what best suits our particular needs/wants. Tomac Quote Link to post Share on other sites
inparidel 4 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 I'm with Tomac. A guy at my IDPA club offerd me an Ultimak to play with for a while. Personally, I think cleaning the gas tube and gas block is important to me and the rifle. When the Ultimak is on it's very solidly clamped to the barrel. To clean the gas block and port, you have to take the tube off, thereby trashing your hard earned zero. Every time you clean, you will need to re-zero. No thanks. Besides, the rail puts the optic too fa forward. The side rail is the result of years of research and combat testing. Whether you use a Kobra, or any other optic in the world on a Weaver rail, that's where the optic belongs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted December 8, 2004 Report Share Posted December 8, 2004 I clean my gas tube out by removing the bolt and piston, then running a patch down it. every once in a blue moon I will put the gas port tool into the hole and just rezero. How do you shoot long distance? you have to constantly adjust for windage if you shoot out past 200 yards? I like the optic between my front and rear sights. I can see them right through it. It is a natural point for me, almost as though the optic isnt there at all. Its a little bit nose heavy, but its not that bad. Nothing like my S12 when I first got it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hardcorps1775 1 Posted January 6, 2005 Report Share Posted January 6, 2005 johnnymac, great tutorial!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 7, 2005 Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 Bvamp= Maybe johnny's tutorial should be in "what can I do..." Or maybe a "nuts and bolts" section? G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnnymceldoo 0 Posted January 7, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2005 I glad some of you enjoyed this post. Its nice to see pics and walkthroughs on things you havnt done before and not have to fret or figure out what to do next. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jtf979 0 Posted January 14, 2005 Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 Can you expand on the idea of enlarging the gas ports? What bits did you use to do it with? Also, how long a flash hider can you have without blowing it off the end of your barrel because of the shot spread? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnnymceldoo 0 Posted January 14, 2005 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2005 Can you expand on the idea of enlarging the gas ports? What bits did you use to do it with? Also, how long a flash hider can you have without blowing it off the end of your barrel because of the shot spread? I used # drill bits. Ive actually enlarged the ports to .110 since the other day. I found that veryu light target loads did not want to fully eject whereas before they did. The only problem with stepping up to .110 is you can split the triangle shape of the ports(break through to another port hole) if your not careful. When I enlarged the ports to .110 the gap seperating one port to the next disapeared. This will let more gas in Im sure. If it lets too much in I'll have to fill it in via the tig welder but we'll see what happens. My goal is to barely get away with shooting very light loads on the big load gas setting(#1) which I did when the gun was stock. I dont know how long of a flashhider you could use without the shot making contact. It would depend on the inside diameter of the FH. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zipgun 0 Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Do I understand the gas system correctly? The number 2 setting is for light loads. It appears from your picture that this also means it exposes the 3 gas ports in the barrel. When the setting is moved from the 2 to 1, the piston covers the two front ports leaving just the one port for heavy loads. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted January 21, 2005 Report Share Posted January 21, 2005 Unfortunately, the Saiga three port set-up and gas regulator is not conducive to being opened very far due to the break-out between holes. On the Tromix shorty guns, I elected to go with a single gas port and redesigned the gas regulator to function similar to an RPD belt gun. It would be possible to weld up and recut a single hole in a standard set-up, but the barrel is most likely 4140 steel and will heat-treat itself even when cooling in ambient temps. Then when you go back to drill, it's a bitch to cut through the hardened area......and you'll really be pissed when you get half way through and snap the tip off your drill bit. The reason I know this.....is because I have been there before......damn, that sucks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted January 22, 2005 Report Share Posted January 22, 2005 Tony- What if you just remove the metal betweent the front hole and one of the rears without increasing the base hole size? G O B Quote Link to post Share on other sites
hardcorps1775 1 Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 which direction do you knock the pins out, l-to-r or r-to-l? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AegisDei 2 Posted March 11, 2005 Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 Bvamp...Gas port tool? Rezeroing? Can you expand on this... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnnymceldoo 0 Posted March 11, 2005 Author Report Share Posted March 11, 2005 which direction do you knock the pins out, l-to-r or r-to-l? <{POST_SNAPBACK}> I knocked mine out from right to left but I dont think it matters. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
curt 0 Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 thanks johnny! I had misplaced the second part of my piston when i began the conversion a couple of months ago and did not even know what i was looking forl Quote Link to post Share on other sites
300RUM 0 Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 (edited) the ultimak I have on my SAR1, I tell ya, I would want it if I were in combat with a weapon that could use it. I like the dot out front the way the ultimak puts it out there. I dont think ive shot a faster rifle with an optic on it than mine with the ultimak. it is JUST as fast if not FASTER than open iron sights, and seems more accurate on snap firing from an unready position. like i said, if ultimak makes one for the s12, i will DEFINATELY buy one. the only thing quicker in my opinion is iron sights (which I can see easily through my optic, by the way) or a computer doing the shooting. <{POST_SNAPBACK}> As far as the ultimak mount goes, it's a good idea, but in practice it has some problems. I had one on a mini-14 with a HAKKO panorama sight, after one 20 round magazine the ultimak mount (which is aluminum and a great heat sink) was so hot you could'nt touch the mount or the Hakko sight to turn it off. After it cooled down I checked the battery in the sight and it had ruptured. The Hakko was ruined. I also had a ultimak on an AK with an OKO sight. It had the same problems with heat. It began to make the OKO claws mushy from the heat. As for opening up gas ports, that is the hack remedy for short stroking, just ask any real armorer who has delt w/shortbarreled FAL's, M1A's, M16's, and KRINK's. Port pressure matters. Peak pressure matters. Dwell matters. Think about, why do SBR M16's, M4's, require a pigtail gas tube to run safely and reliably? Why do KRINK's require a flashsuppressor w/a chamber to INCREASE backpressure in order to function safely and reliable? A while back Small Arms Review did an excellent series on short barreled M16's and explains what it takes to make a SBR's operate safely and reliably. Sorry, Just my .02 Edited May 1, 2005 by 300RUM Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 As for opening up gas ports, that is the hack remedy for short stroking, just ask any real armorer who has delt w/shortbarreled FAL's, M1A's, M16's, and KRINK's. Port pressure matters. Peak pressure matters. Dwell matters. Think about, why do SBR M16's, M4's, require a pigtail gas tube to run safely and reliably? Why do KRINK's require a flashsuppressor w/a chamber to INCREASE backpressure in order to function safely and reliable? A while back Small Arms Review did an excellent series on short barreled M16's and explains what it takes to make a SBR's operate safely and reliably. Sorry, Just my .02 <{POST_SNAPBACK}> Opening up the gas ports seem like hack to me too, but I don't know of any other way on an S12, unless you have a new idea. I am assuming that port pressure doesn't decrease with a shorter barrel, but the amount of time that the pressure is applied is shortened by the shorter barrel because pressure only occurs when the wad is between the ports and the end of the barrel. I suppose that additional choke would increase the back pressure, but that would only be good if it was beneficial to your pattern. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
300RUM 0 Posted May 1, 2005 Report Share Posted May 1, 2005 No, I don't have a proper solution to SBR S12 short stroking. Moving the gas block back, w/smaller gas ports would be one idea. The S12 as great as it is, does not give you many options for SBR. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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