Saiga 12 Tactics and Techniques: Combat Reloads

[ManOnFire 0]

I've been playing with different ways of doing speed reloads (reload w/o retention/combat reload/emergency reload/whatever you want to call that). I think I have settled on the following method:

 

1-Left hand hits mag release with thumb

2-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt back (right holds BHO)

3-Left hand grabs new mag and loads it

4-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt (now ready to fire)

 

I'm trying to do it as fast as possible, minimize movements, and keep it simple enough that your "inner monkey" can do it when you're under pressure, while trying to use the support hand for support and keeping the firing hand on the pistol grip. Without LRBHO, and because it's really tough to get a full mag in on a closed bolt, there are a few movements that you wouldn't have with something like an AR-15, so...

 

How do you do it?

 

-MoF

 

Here's what I THINK it should look like (this is NOT me):

[lipadj46 2]

I've been playing with different ways of doing speed reloads (reload w/o retention/combat reload/emergency reload/whatever you want to call that). I think I have settled on the following method:

 

1-Left hand hits mag release with thumb

2-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt back (right holds BHO)

3-Left hand grabs new mag and loads it

4-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt (now ready to fire)

 

I'm trying to do it as fast as possible, minimize movements, and keep it simple enough that your "inner monkey" can do it when you're under pressure, while trying to use the support hand for support and keeping the firing hand on the pistol grip. Without LRBHO, and because it's really tough to get a full mag in on a closed bolt, there are a few movements that you wouldn't have with something like an AR-15, so...

 

How do you do it?

 

-MoF

 

Here's what I THINK it should look like (this is NOT me):

 

Practice loading a mag on a closed bolt and you removed the most awkward step (2 above). Loading a full mag on a closed bolt is actually fairly easy to master.

[ManOnFire 0]

Is there a trick or technique to loading full mags on a closed bolt reliably? I always end up stovepiping the top round or fussing with it for a second or two...I figured I was saving time and doing a more reliable reload by locking the bolt to the rear.

 

Thanks!

[jacknast76 2]

I would think 2,1,3,4 would be faster.

[Nailbomb 10,221]

I'm a huge lover of a hasty sling so heres how i do it...

 

1: Use thumb to rack bolt back with right hand, use middle finger to hold BHO while moving bolt foward with thumb.

2: Release mag with right hand

3: Grab new mag with right hand and rock and lock.

 

if you don't care about your mags you can smack the old one out with the new one. But for what its worth this weapon, along with many others was made for your left hand to be in a sling supporting the weapon. Having your hand on the grip finger on the trigger does you no good with no ammo. use your off hand to do the easy job of suporting the weapon, and use your strong hand to do everything it should do anyway.

 

Suprise! it works! I even use a hasty sling with my AR and get funny looks at the range... its crazy...

[ManOnFire 0]

I'm a huge lover of a hasty sling so heres how i do it...

 

1: Use thumb to rack bolt back with right hand, use middle finger to hold BHO while moving bolt foward with thumb.

2: Release mag with right hand

3: Grab new mag with right hand and rock and lock.

 

if you don't care about your mags you can smack the old one out with the new one. But for what its worth this weapon, along with many others was made for your left hand to be in a sling supporting the weapon. Having your hand on the grip finger on the trigger does you no good with no ammo. use your off hand to do the easy job of suporting the weapon, and use your strong hand to do everything it should do anyway.

 

Suprise! it works! I even use a hasty sling with my AR and get funny looks at the range... its crazy...

 

Now that's something I have not tried! As you say, there's no reason to have your hand on the grip, finger along the frame if you've got no ammo. I can see the logic there.

 

So if I'm understanding you correctly, you have your right palm oriented toward the weapon, thumb pulls the charging handle back, middle finger hits the BHO when you've got the bolt to the rear, then you release the mag, rock and lock with the right hand?

 

I will give that a shot and see how it feels.

 

Thanks!

[corbin 621]

While I'm NO WHERE NEAR as fast or as smooth as

guy, this is how I was trained to reload the AK. The Saiga 12 has the added option of the BHO if you want to do that. I know I CAN load on a closed bolt, but so far during the last month of trying, I find loading on an open bolt easier and smoother for me. That's just ME though.

 

My situation is a little different though, since I'm now left handed due to an injury to my right hand. So for me, I....

 

1: use my right hand to pull bolt back while pushing the BHO up with my left thumb (need BHO extension)

2: push mag release forward with left middle finger, but will eventually get a release extension

3: swap mags on an open bolt. Don't usually let the mag fall to the ground, but could if I had to.

4: rack the bolt back enough to release BHO and let action go into battery.

 

Right now I have to rotate the PG in my left hand a little in order to reach the BHO with my left thumb. I'll remedy that soon though, I hope. Same for the mag release extension. Right now, it's a little awkward to reach the mag release, but I have to use my left hand since my right one doesn't work as well. I can hold the magazines with my right hand though.

 

 

Anyway, that's how I TRY to do it.

 

 

 

Corbin

[lipadj46 2]

Is there a trick or technique to loading full mags on a closed bolt reliably? I always end up stovepiping the top round or fussing with it for a second or two...I figured I was saving time and doing a more reliable reload by locking the bolt to the rear.

 

Thanks!

 

Well it's hard to describe because it is more of a feel but you just rock the magazine in as normal but you obviously need to make sure as you put in the top corner you are pushing the shells down into the magazine and then rock back and lock in the mag. Also to help avoid a stove pipe on the first round make sure you pull the bolt back all the way and let it fly to battery all in one smooth fast movement. If you don't rack back al the way or kind of hesitate you are more likely to stovepipe.

 

Mind you I am not fast like the competition guys but I figure if I can cut out the step of getting the bolt locked back it becomes a more simple operation and less easy to mess up. The first LRBHO that comes out though will be in my S12 I will tell you that. It is kind of funny that the russians have not put one in.

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

they have

[6500rpm 670]

This may qualify me as a puss, but going under with the left hand on a S12 and racking the bolt is a hell of a lot harder than with an AK. If a fast reload is a priority for you, I'd vote for a magwell or wait for a LRBHO. Possibly even a right side charging handle mod? Until then, nothing like practicing the technique that works best for you.

[lipadj46 2]

they have

 

So I have heard I have not seen one that is out there for sale.

[rodm1 2]

1.Standard drill

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...andarddrill.flv

2.Alternate drill

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...ernatedrill.flv

3.Eyes closed

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...closeddrill.flv

4.Sub load&vest drill

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...advestdrill.flv

Edited March 1, 2009 by rodm1

[Matt78 0]

I've been playing with different ways of doing speed reloads (reload w/o retention/combat reload/emergency reload/whatever you want to call that). I think I have settled on the following method:

 

1-Left hand hits mag release with thumb

2-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt back (right holds BHO)

3-Left hand grabs new mag and loads it

4-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt (now ready to fire)

 

This is precisely why a 12 guage shotgun based on the FAL would be an even better weapon for close quarters combat. Sadly, few gun designers have put much emphasis on ergonomic issues.

[goingpro 2]

get a drum so you dont have to worry about it

[ManOnFire 0]

1.Standard drill

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...andarddrill.flv

2.Alternate drill

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...ernatedrill.flv

3.Eyes closed

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...closeddrill.flv

4.Sub load&vest drill

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...advestdrill.flv

 

Holy mother of God, that is amazingly fast. That's a Saiga 12 with full mags? Looks like my weak link is just practice. I will be using those vids as a training aid. Thank you!

[Bayoupiper 738]

I load mine on a closed bolt.

Took a little practice but sure saves me on the hand gymnastics!

[tcox4freedom 0]

1.Standard drill

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...andarddrill.flv

2.Alternate drill

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...ernatedrill.flv

3.Eyes closed

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...closeddrill.flv

4.Sub load&vest drill

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v179/Cat...advestdrill.flv

 

Holy mother of God, that is amazingly fast. That's a Saiga 12 with full mags? Looks like my weak link is just practice. I will be using those vids as a training aid. Thank you!

 

DITTO x2

[BpS12 512]

"Having your hand on the grip finger on the trigger does you no good with no ammo. use your off hand to do the easy job of suporting the weapon, and use your strong hand to do everything it should do anyway."

 

Sorry but for the S12, I'd have to disagree. Train to count your rounds(5 and 8rnd mags) and reload(left handed if possible) with a round in the chamber, finger off the trigger but ready to rock. Also skips racking the bolt. If you've ever been rushed, Paintball/Airsoft, on the street or in combat, hel even in a video game, you know you're mostly likely to die reloading. Better to leave a round in the chamber, esp at CQ, than to have to pull another weapon in the middle of a reload.

 

This said, I'm also speaking from a S12 Bullpup configuration that is much like holding a heavy pistol. But I can stay on Target and reload at the same time. Which is always my preferance. I also have issues with the LRBHO concept(so your bolts open, big deal, if the enemy is still shooting and your not, whose gonna win?) and am trying to devise a method of "Last Round(in Chamber) Warning". Perhaps a next to last round Tracer or "Whistler" or something similar.

 

Any ideas,

Mikel

[Xpur3L0g1cX 3]

I have come to realize that when loading on a closed bolt all is needed is practice. The 5 rounder is extremely easy to load on closed bolt, The agps are a bit harder but is still fairly easy. The thing I have noticed is I can load it all day with 2 3/4 but with 3 inch I can barely even load the 5 rounder on a closed bolt. The agp is out of the question with 3" All is needed is to hook the front catch first then as your rocking back push up at the same time. works great. I still want to mod my safety for the hold open though I dont have a bolt stop if yall have an extra ill take it!

[lipadj46 2]

I've been playing with different ways of doing speed reloads (reload w/o retention/combat reload/emergency reload/whatever you want to call that). I think I have settled on the following method:

 

1-Left hand hits mag release with thumb

2-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt back (right holds BHO)

3-Left hand grabs new mag and loads it

4-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt (now ready to fire)

 

This is precisely why a 12 guage shotgun based on the FAL would be an even better weapon for close quarters combat. Sadly, few gun designers have put much emphasis on ergonomic issues.

 

Why the FAL? Adding a LRBHO would solve the issue of magazine loading on a closed bolt IMO.

[jma037 0]

1: Use thumb to rack bolt back with right hand, use middle finger to hold BHO while moving bolt foward with thumb.

2: Release mag with right hand

3: Grab new mag with right hand and rock and lock.

 

I use something similar.

 

1)Rack and engage the BHO with my RIGHT hand

2)Move RIGHT hand back to the grip

3)Load mag with Left Hand

4)Charge shell with LEFT hand.

[corbin 621]

He's my experience.....

 

 

I agree that a tactical reload on a low or empty mag, with a round in the chamber is tactically better than waiting to run it dry and deal with an unfire-able weapon. I'd try to do that whenever I was getting low on ammo and behind cover. It just makes sense to me to have a fully loaded weapon whenever I could.

 

Except for 3 gun matches, I haven't seen anyone that could accurately keep track of "was that 18 or 19 rounds?" while being shot at and or having to kill others and possibly deal with buddies that got wounded, or being hurt yourself. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying that nobody in my Ranger unit was able to do it under the stress of actual combat, including me. We tried too. It often became a "game" during training where we'd say "Hey Hernandez! What's your round count?". They were usually off by at least 2 or 3, unless they had only fired a couple. We'd usually think in terms of "green, yellow, red" as far as our remaining ammo went. Green meant fully loaded and GTG. Yellow was around 60-70% or so and red meant you were down to less than half.

 

 

Under fire though, it was a little different, for me at least. I can only speak for myself, obviously. No matter how much we tried to "train like you fight, fight like you train", when someone dies or is wounded, it's tough to pretend it's still training. We did better some days than others though. I imagine if we were JUST shooting and not having to call in coordinates or tell another Operator how many "Tangos" were at what position, or deal with having an RPG hit nearby and take your bearings away for a bit, we probably could have been able to keep enough of a count to bet our lives on.

 

 

Again, if you can do that, GREAT. I was never able to, except on the firing line. I don't want this to come across as anything but explaining MY particular experience with this. If you say you can do it, I believe you. I wish I could. Not to the point I'd be willing to bet my life or the life of my family or friends on it. I could tell when the "gas tank" was getting low though, and do a reload then. But to say "I've fired 26 rounds out of a 30 round mag" and be able to be 100% with that all the time, every time just wasn't something I could do.

 

The reason I tend to like the bolt open on the Saiga to reload is that unless I switch hands (I'm left handed now) and take my still fully functional left hand off the pistol grip and use it to change mags, I can't reliably get my right thumb behind the fresh mag for a full, strong grip. My median nerve was taken out with a shotgun through the palm of my right hand. I have little use of my right thumb and no functional wrist. So I can only grip the fresh mag around the front and not get a good full handed grip on it. As such, the resistance of trying to get the mag rotated in with a closed bolt often pulls the mag from my grip when I try rocking it in place.

 

I do it fine off the right shoulder (as you probably do if you're right handed). The Surefires load OK this way. As mentioned, it's not as easy as the stock 5 rounder though. Haven't tried the AGPs much yet.

 

 

Corbin

Edited March 1, 2009 by Corbin

[Gibbles 23]

I will try this at my next three gun match... but so far I have decided to use my right hand, grab bolt with thumb, rack back, with index or middle finger push the bho up and lock the bolt back, then with left or right hand remove mag, insert new, tilt gun to the side, and pull bolt back with left hand and let fly forward, then continue to destroy targets. (fyi I'm right handed)

[BpS12 512]

"Except for 3 gun matches, I haven't seen anyone that could accurately keep track of "was that 18 or 19 rounds?" while being shot at and or having to kill others and possibly deal with buddies that got wounded, or being hurt yourself. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying that nobody in my Ranger unit was able to do it under the stress of actual combat...."

 

 

Corbin,

 

I think you're right on the mark. Under fire and with SHtF, round count is the last thing you're ganna be concentrating on. This is why I also suggested a "Next to last round" Tracer or Whislter round. For you guys shooting Hi Caps maybe the 5th and 4th from last round. Downside to the tracer is that the "tangos" may be able to trace it back to you. A Whistler can give you away, but if you're already shooting....? Question is, Will YOU hear it?

 

I realize the LRBHO has been the standard for decades, but there has to be something better. How many people have been shot, trying to shoot with an empty chamber and open bolt?

 

I am trying to come up with a simple mod that can be done to most any gun/mag. One thought being a "Smart mag" with a sensor strip that plugs into a gun mounted lead to a light, just under the rear sight, that changes from (as you mentioned) green to yellow to red as you empty the mag. Downside is.....That itty bitty LED light can be picked up by a sniper several hundred yards away. Hmmm, perhaps we need a rheostat(sp), lol.

 

My Taurus PT-145 has a mechanical "Round in the Chamber" Indicator, but that doesn't tell me when I'm down to my last couple of rounds. A mechanical indicator would be nice and I'm working on that too. Think OLD Loony Tunes, with a flag sticking up telling you "Hey dumb A$$, You're bout out of Ammo!!!",

LOL.

 

Thanks for the feedback,

Mikel

[305diver 2]

IMHO The bolt mod discussed by Tony in post #16 makes loading on a closed bolt much easier. If you haven't done it, give it a try or send your bolt to Cobra for this work, you wont regret it!!!

Those of you lucky enough to be on the wait list for one of Tony's guns won't have to ask for it.

Its that kind of post that set Tony apart from the pack. Big ups to Tony

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=20234

[corbin 621]

While this isn't really a tactical reload, you can see me loading a mag in this video. It's the 2nd video:

 

Video on Carolina Shooters Supply

 

 

Corbin

[corbin 621]

Sorry for the double post.

For some reason, I don't see the "Edit" button appearing on any of my former posts in this thread. Maybe posts that are over a month old can't be edited or something. Anyway.....

 

a new video showing a left handed tactical reload using the BHO like I described before.

 

 

Corbin

[Delta 5.56 0]

IMHO The bolt mod discussed by Tony in post #16 makes loading on a closed bolt much easier. If you haven't done it, give it a try or send your bolt to Cobra for this work, you wont regret it!!!

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=20234

 

The above. Did mine last night and what a difference it makes. Loading a full mag on a closed bolt is now simple.

[hobbyshooter 59]

I would think 2,1,3,4 would be faster.

 

That's how I do it. The only problem I run into is I sometimes nudge the safety lever up when reaching up for the charge handle. Mostly because I practiced with the safety on so I never even thought about it being an issue until running live drills on the range.

 

As far as loading on a closed bolt. I didn't like that idea because although it can be done relatively easily with 2-3/4" shells, I could only get to about 25% success rate with 3" shells so I decided to just familiarize myself with opening the bolt & flicking up the BHO. That also gives me the benefit of loading up 13 rnds in my Surefires.

[Patriot12 11]

I've been playing with different ways of doing speed reloads (reload w/o retention/combat reload/emergency reload/whatever you want to call that). I think I have settled on the following method:

 

1-Left hand hits mag release with thumb

2-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt back (right holds BHO)

3-Left hand grabs new mag and loads it

4-Left hand reaches under and racks bolt (now ready to fire)

 

I'm trying to do it as fast as possible, minimize movements, and keep it simple enough that your "inner monkey" can do it when you're under pressure, while trying to use the support hand for support and keeping the firing hand on the pistol grip. Without LRBHO, and because it's really tough to get a full mag in on a closed bolt, there are a few movements that you wouldn't have with something like an AR-15, so...

 

How do you do it?

 

-MoF

 

Here's what I THINK it should look like (this is NOT me):

 

Recommended change to #2 and #4. Instead of reaching under, reach over with left hand and rack the bolt with left pinky finger.