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Straight up, is a Saiga 5.45 that much more accurate than a Saiga 7.62

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I have a 74 brake I want to put on my 7.62, people voiced their concerns about the hole size but a 7.62 will pass through it just fine. What do you think?

 

My arsenal sgl21(7.62x39) 74 style brake has a path wide enough to allow a 9mm luger case (slightly over 0.355 inches) to slip through. If your surplus 5.45 brake can do the same, then definitely don't worry about using it. If not, a drill bit can fix that.

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124 grain 8m3 makes some very nasty wounds. Fist size cavities.

HPIM1263.jpg

 

 

That is a gigantic hole :sadam:

 

 

 

That chart compares old military AKs rounds. When it comes to modern 7.62x39 mm loads, Wolf Military Classic 124 gr HP (8M3 "Sapsan") is a devastating fragmenting round, while Golden Tiger 124 gr FMJ is designed to tumble like crazy. Both are very good, modern bullet designs and have sick terminal ballistics. They are also rather affordable, at around $200 a case. I don't believe that there are any 5.45 mm loads which match the terminal ballistics of these loads.

 

 

 

Excellent point, I'm not terribly familar with 8M3.

 

It does make me wonder if the improvement in terminal ballistics is a trade off for reduced penetration through intermediate barriers, it's not easy to have an all purpose bullet. I'd be interested to know if 8M3 still has good penetration, that would definitely up my opinion of 7.62x39.

 

 

 

 

 

Z

Edited by TX-Zen
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I shot my 5.45 at 500 yards again yesterday, Did just fine as usual. vI was hitting pop up targets and steel gongs at 350 yards every shot. :haha:

 

anyone know what velocity of 52 grain 5.45 russian surplus would be at 500 yards? 70*F, 200 feet above sea level, 16" barrel

Edited by toshbar

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If you already want to buy a 7.62 just buy the 7.62 :)

 

If you still need motivation heres some. I'll let someone else dig it up but in another similar "Oh noez which caliber should I pick?" thread SonnyP chimed in. 5.45 was only for very specific scenarios. 7.62 was better for general.

 

Edit---

F' it I found

http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?62793-AK-74-or-AK-47&p=859241&highlight=7n22#post859241

It would depend on numerous factors....

Availability of ammo.

5.45 7N22. Does exceptionally well against the flesh and flesh protected by body armor. Still- not quite enough (of course depends on many factors- accuracy' date=' placement, cover characteristics, etc.) to work against targets in/behind vehicles, trees, thick brush.

7.62. Not as effective against flesh (short term). Long term it will do. Heavier. Does good in brush, trees, etc.

 

I'd say 7.62 is better all around choice, while 5.45 excells in targeted situations.

 

Context determines the choice. If context is known and choice is available.

 

Otherwise- 7.62...[/quote']

Edited by jamesavery22

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I don't have either, and I'm aware of the most common arguments for both, but I leaned towards the 7.62(for it's ability to put down deer a little better, among other things), only thing that holds me back is the alleged lack of accuracy at 100 yards and slightly beyond.

 

I just wanted to know if it was really an issue and if it was really as bad as people said it was, especially when using a refined Saiga.

 

The thread has since taken slightly different courses and other arguments.

 

If you already want to buy a 7.62 just buy the 7.62 :)

 

If you still need motivation heres some. I'll let someone else dig it up but in another similar "Oh noez which caliber should I pick?" thread SonnyP chimed in. 5.45 was only for very specific scenarios. 7.62 was better for general.

 

Edit---

F' it I found

http://www.warriorta...7n22#post859241

It would depend on numerous factors....

Availability of ammo.

5.45 7N22. Does exceptionally well against the flesh and flesh protected by body armor. Still- not quite enough (of course depends on many factors- accuracy' date=' placement, cover characteristics, etc.) to work against targets in/behind vehicles, trees, thick brush.

7.62. Not as effective against flesh (short term). Long term it will do. Heavier. Does good in brush, trees, etc.

 

I'd say 7.62 is better all around choice, while 5.45 excells in targeted situations.

 

Context determines the choice. If context is known and choice is available.

 

Otherwise- 7.62...[/quote']

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He's a combat vet with a lot of experience, when I was at his class the same subject came up. I give him proper credit for knowing what he's talking because he is a life long student of combat and martial arts, but he himself will tell you not to take his opinion as the final answer on anything. He's really good about encouraging students to evaluate things for themselves, his opinions are based on his experiences, he is always very clear about that and never tries to claim he knows with absolute certainty.

 

 

Marco Vorobiev is another Spetznaz combat veteran and he swears by 5.45, again based on his experience fighting against the Afghans in the Russian war. We had a long talk about 5.45 and it reinforced my opinion of the caliber, but I still think about Sonny's comments too and can see the pro's and con's of both their opinions.

 

Neither one claims to have all the answers but both are intelligent, rational and understand their experiences in war and the training they received while in the Spetznaz. They are two of the most professional military instructors I've met and their insights into the respective calibers were very interesting.

 

 

 

 

Z

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I don't have either, and I'm aware of the most common arguments for both, but I leaned towards the 7.62(for it's ability to put down deer a little better, among other things), only thing that holds me back is the alleged lack of accuracy at 100 yards and slightly beyond.

 

 

Seriously, don't get hung up on bench rest accuracy differences between the two. 100 yards is ridiculously close for a 7.62 AK

 

In real world shooting either will get the job done at less than 300m, definately 100m for shooting deer if thats what you want to use 7.62 for. People often perpetuate the internet myth that 7.62 isn't accurate. Maybe trying for head shots at 200+ it isn't, but thats very different than being able to hit a man at 200+ which the 7.62 can and will do all day. IMO 400m is realistic with a decent shooter for 7.62, 500m is definitely realistic for 5.45. If you add a POSP 4x24 or decent red dot longer ranges are very manageable with a 7.62 because it eliminate the biggest problem we westerners have with AK's which is the leaf sight.

 

As I said before the primary advantage the 5.45 has is accuracy at longer ranges and during high rates of fire. If you're taking one or two aimed shots at a time at less than 300m the 7.62 will be plenty consistent. Borrow a friend's, get a good zero with a decent optic and see it first hand.

 

 

 

Z

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Sorry, I wasn't insulting the man, he is a badass...but the exclusion method is what got me.

 

 

Heya Beef

 

No it didn't sound at all like an insult, was just adding my .02 rupees

 

 

 

Z

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I have a 74 brake I want to put on my 7.62, people voiced their concerns about the hole size but a 7.62 will pass through it just fine. What do you think?

 

BEWARE! I bought a used Bulgarian 74 brake and tried to put in on a 7.62. I was assured by the seller that the brake had sufficient clearance for a 7.62 round. When I received the brake, I did confirm that a 7.62 round could be inserted into the tightest clearance of the brake with room to spare. However, the first time I shot the gun on the range, several rounds mysteriously "disappeared" at 100 yards - no print on the paper and I was really in a WTF moment until I fired another round and saw dust kick up on another berm at 120 yards and 50 YARDS OFF TO THE RIGHT! I immediately unscrewed the brake and proceeded to shoot 10 more rounds into the target at 100 yards without. The 7.62 requires a 74 brake to be drilled out to at least 3/8" or it will literally hose bullets in all directions but straight forward. There was no evidence that a bullet had actually struck the brake in any way, but accuracy definitely went down the crapper. I've yet to drill out and retry the brake- it's sitting in a box at the moment.

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Thanks for your 2 cents.

 

However, what are your experiences with accuray at 100 yards+? What do your clusters look like?

 

Honestly this is pretty much the same as the 45 vs. 9mm debate.

 

Personally I use the 7.62 mainly because at the time I was getting into the AK platform the 5.45 wasn't as common as it is now. By the time the market started getting flooded with all the cheap 5.45 surplus and more rifles were coming out I was already committed to 7.62 platform.

 

If I could do it all over again I would probably still go with the 7.62. For what I use it for it is a better option than the 5.45.

 

Just my :2c:

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Thanks for your 2 cents.

However, what are your experiences with accuray at 100 yards+? What do your clusters look like?

 

There are a few things that really muddy the waters when it comes to speaking of accuracy.

 

7.62x39 the cartridge itself is very capable of fine accuracy. See thread link below.

http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-362501.html

HPIM1966.jpg

 

 

The problems that prevent 7.62x39 AK weapons from really performing sub moa are inherent in the ammo loadings as well as the weapons.

Steel cased machine gun ammo is not exactly match grade. Brass cased commercial loads are usually better, but to really get the best accuracy handloading is essential.

In many cases reported on various internet forums, handloading has significantly improved the results for 7.62x39 rifles. aksarben is a classic example of this concept.

Russian steel cased ammo is not usually a contender for supreme accuracy in 7.62x39. Unfortunately, most folks judge their 7.62x39 based on crappy ammo and outright declare

that 7.62x39 is inaccurate. This is sort of like driving a nascar race on regular commercial gas and then throwing the car under the bus because it can't compete with racing fuel

supplied stock cars.

 

Another issue is bullet to bore looseness. Not all barrel bores are exactly 0.310 or 0.311. Foreign commercial ammo bullets can vary a bit in diameter.

This plays a bit in inconsistent performance. Also, much of the cheap ammo can have variations in powder quantity and this only makes things worse.

 

Something that is often overlooked when comparing 7.62x39 to 5.45 is that if the barrel external diameter is the same in both calibers the wider bore causes the

remaining barrel wall to be thinner. 7.62x39 would have less barrel steel than 5.45 and this plays into the harmonics of the barrel. More barrel wall steel helps with

accuracy by absorbing more vibrations and stabilizing the bullet path through the barrel.

 

Another issue is the 9.45 twist rate in 7.62x39. Much too fast for such a short light bullet. Over spinning a bullet makes it unstable. The bench gun in the link above

uses a much slower 15 inch twist to great advantage.

 

Apart from all this, I and others have managed to shoot groups bordering on 1 moa with various ammo choices in saiga 7.62x39 rifles.

Edited by my762buzz
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Thanks my762buzz, this is the type of stuff I was looking for! Great read.

 

Thanks for your 2 cents.

However, what are your experiences with accuray at 100 yards+? What do your clusters look like?

 

There are a few things that really muddy the waters when it comes to speaking of accuracy.

 

7.62x39 the cartridge itself is very capable of fine accuracy. See thread link below.

http://www.thehighro...p/t-362501.html

 

 

The problems that prevent 7.62x39 AK weapons from really performing sub moa are inherent in the ammo loadings as well as the weapons.

Steel cased machine gun ammo is not exactly match grade. Brass cased commercial loads are usually better, but to really get the best accuracy handloading is essential.

In many cases reported on various internet forums, handloading has significantly improved the results for 7.62x39 rifles. aksarben is a classic example of this concept.

Russian steel cased ammo is not usually a contender for supreme accuracy in 7.62x39. Unfortunately, most folks judge their 7.62x39 based on crappy ammo and outright declare

that 7.62x39 is inaccurate. This is sort of like driving a nascar race on regular commercial gas and then throwing the car under the bus because it can't compete with racing fuel

supplied stock cars.

 

Another issue is bullet to bore looseness. Not all barrel bores are exactly 0.310 or 0.311. Foreign commercial ammo bullets can vary a bit in diameter.

This plays a bit in inconsistent performance. Also, much of the cheap ammo can have variations in powder quantity and this only makes things worse.

 

Something that is often overlooked when comparing 7.62x39 to 5.45 is that if the barrel external diameter is the same in both calibers the wider bore causes the

remaining barrel wall to be thinner. 7.62x39 would have less barrel steel than 5.45 and this plays into the harmonics of the barrel. More barrel wall steel helps with

accuracy by absorbing more vibrations and stabilizing the bullet path through the barrel.

 

Another issue is the 9.45 twist rate in 7.62x39. Much too fast for such a short light bullet. Over spinning a bullet makes it unstable. The bench gun in the link above

uses a much slower 15 inch twist to great advantage.

 

Apart from all this, I and others have managed to shoot groups bordering on 1 moa with various ammo choices in saiga 7.62x39 rifles.

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The 7.62 requires a 74 brake to be drilled out to at least 3/8" or it will literally hose bullets in all directions but straight forward.

 

Yeah, lol, I'm drilling it out with a 7/16 bit.

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My 7.62x39 Saiga with U.S. ammo was as accurate as the two 5.45s (not Saigas) I have with 7N6. Im sure you can handload the 7.62x39 to be very accurate. For hunting deer I would go with the 7.62x39. The main advantage to the 5.45x39 is the weight of the ammo and the low recoil. Mine feel like a 22 Magnum load. If you really wanted to hunt deer with the 5.45x39 then its possible to handload some 224 bullets made for deer. The bullets must be resized to .221 but that can be done with the right equipment. Currently I have an early CIA Tantal with a .224 six groove 7.7 twist barrel. With handloaded 75 gr .224 bullets Im getting 1 inch groups at 50 yards with iron sights and 61 year old eyes. Havent tried a scope yet, need a good mount.

 

Because of the cheap ammo I really like the 5.45x39. The 7.62x39 ammo is coming down some now so thats not as big a consideration today.

 

Get both. Then you can make your own judgement.

 

For SHTF I prefer the 5.45x39. You can carry a lot more ammo. Just my .02.

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That's a good question. Personally, I've been stocking on both MC HPs and Golden Tigers FMJs lately. Might be loading my mags half and half in a SHTF scenario.

It would be nice to have the question answered. People always recommend 7.62x39 because of the barrier penetration, but can you still have that AND good terminal performance in flesh? I like 7N6 for its good balance of penetration and wounding effects, whereas something like the Hornady 5.45 would only be good if you knew you didn't have to shoot _through_ something solid before hitting the BG.

 

 

As far as quality control, they seem to go bang every time, but as far as terminal ballistics consistency, I don't know.

I bring up the quality control because I have experienced and read about problems with Russian commercial ammo, but have neither seen nor heard anything similar about 7N6.

 

In my experience, the quality of Russian commercial ammo has been increasing over the years. It's gotten cleaner, more reliable and more accurate. It makes sense, since things have been getting better for Russia in general, except for the recent economic dip due to The Great Recession. The workers are getting paid more, the factories can afford new equipment, etc. Things were a lot tougher back in the 90's, when they first started importing Russian ammo.

 

I figured out the other day I have gone thru just over 4000 rounds of x39 Brown Bear HP and FMJ in all kinds of conditions - 3-gun in freezing rain where I just soaked my weapon and loaded mags in WD-40 cuz I didn't have anything else - and I have left ammo in a steaming hot car for weeks when I forgot a stack of loaded mags once. And I have shot probably 1000 rounds of 308 Brown Bear FMJ and SP. And in all that time, through seven different weapons, I have never had a single round fail to fire. Not one. Nor have I ever heard of a Barnaul round failing among all my friends who run AKs and Saigas.

 

How much "quality" do you want?

Edited by Snakum

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How much "quality" do you want?

 

Alas, my failure rate is higher than yours. (Just had one failure to fire last week). Pretty much all with .223, though I've read about problems with other calibers as well.

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For anyone who cares, I finally got around to widening the 74 brake's hole. I used a 3/8 bit and honed it around a little. The 7.62 passes through it just fine, however the brake itself doesn't really seem to improve anything above using a slant brake - lol. But it looks cool anyway and matches my 5.45 so whatever. Anyone thinking about it in the future just don't use a 7/16, maybe go for a 1/2" and be done with it, or just keep the damn slant brake in the first palce...

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For anyone who cares, I finally got around to widening the 74 brake's hole. I used a 3/8 bit and honed it around a little. The 7.62 passes through it just fine, however the brake itself doesn't really seem to improve anything above using a slant brake - lol. But it looks cool anyway and matches my 5.45 so whatever. Anyone thinking about it in the future just don't use a 7/16, maybe go for a 1/2" and be done with it, or just keep the damn slant brake in the first palce...

 

3/8 in. is a smaller hole than spec for these brakes. I think the closest you could get without metric bits would be 13/32 in., which would still be slightly over-sized, and a metric 10 mm bit should be perfect. The diameter of that hole does affect the functioning of the brake, but to what extent, I have no idea. I certainly notice that my AK-103s have noticeably less recoil than my AKMs, and I have always attributed that to the 74 brake, but that isn't necessarily the case, since several other factors influence felt recoil. It would be easy to test, though.

 

For those of you encountering misfires, it could just as much be a matter of a damaged/eroded/short firing pin causing light strikes, or dirty firing pin channel, as it could be the fault of the primers in your ammo. Golden Tiger (Vympel) is one of the only commercial brands that has earned a reputation for "bad primers." The Uly 8M3 stuff has a great reputation, but Russian commercial ammo has changed a lot in the last couple years, and is no longer sealed, and according to xenogy, the Uly HP currently imported does not have the exact same 8M3 bullet as it did just a few years ago and I am still waiting to hear further reports on any changes in terminal ballistics. Yugo M67 is the one readily-available ace in the hole for this caliber, and it is desirable for many of the same reasons as 7N6 is in 5.45.

 

As for the 74 to 103 comparison, I think, in theory, it's a pretty balanced trade-off, but due to the accuracy of 7N6 out of standard 74 barrels, the lacquer and sealant, sealed tins, ballistic performance, and reliability of primers, I am leaning toward 74s at the moment. For the OP, I think 74s are, on average, more accurate, but not by much, and the differences within rifles of a caliber are probably a lot greater than the average difference between those 2 calibers, assuming proper ammo and barrels. 5.45 definitely wins out at longer range.

Edited by nexus

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the Uly HP currently imported does not have the exact same 8M3 bullet as it did just a few years ago and I am still waiting to hear further reports on any changes in terminal ballistics.

 

 

There is also Hornady Vmax loadings that work just as well or better than the 8m3. Very reactive to water in living tissues. Boxes of 50 are currently for sale online.

 

Shot 2 is 8m3 and shot 3 is Vmax Try vaporizing this much water like this with any 5.45

 

 

Edited by my762buzz

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The only thing I need to add to this is that many states have a minimum caliber for game hunting. 5.45 is below this caliber in Idaho (it's .243 or greater, IIRC), so you should use a 7.62x39 in that case.

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Straight up, if you've shot both, is it really that much more accurate at about 100 yards? Also how does the recoil really compare? I know that the 5.45 has a better trajectory and is a generally more accurate round, but we're talking about Saiga's here, alot of people have stated that the Saiga ak47 was a lot more accurate than other ak47's(7.62's).

 

The only three things that are really going for the 5.45 for me are:

-better accuracy(at 100 yards)

-lower recoil/better handling

-(I'm well aware of other benefits, but I've weighed them out...as cheap as the ammo is for the 5.45 I rather have the security of knowing that I can get it if need be so the 5.45 wouldn't end up being a wall-hanger)

 

But in all reality, when we're looking at Saiga's(well made ak47) is that much better? I've read around that the 5.45's can do within 3 inches at 100 yards, but people say they can do that supposedly with a Saiga 7.62 as well. Is it true?

 

It's the ammo and the twist rate of the barrels. 7.62x39 rifles have a 1 in 10 twist, they were designed to use barrel stock originally intended for 7.62x54. A 1 in 10 twist barrel gives great accuracy with a 185+ grain 7.62x54 bullet it is crap with a little 123gr 7.62x39 bullet. I shot some heavy subsonic 7.62x39 and the accuracy difference was astonishing. 5.45x39 is optimized for the twist rate supplied with most 5.45 caliber weapons and the most common loading is the right weight and amount of cylindrical bearing surface for the most common barrel twist rate.

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Geez guys it took me until recently with the saiga being offered in 223 that was for me to purchase a semi auto rifle in 223. I was never fond of the 223 round nor liked the over priced black rifle that fired it. The russians did say our 223 round and the 308 round was more accurate in there saiga's than the russian calibers were. They thought it was the design of our brass case. Living in a state were i can't own any other semi auto rifle in 7,62x39 but an sks i'm limited to the sks only. I can't have the saiga in 7,62x39 nor all the other ak's. Now my problem is do i really need the saiga in the russian caliber of 5,45x39? Is there that much difference between the 223 and the 5,45x39 rounds?

 

In the ballastics chart above there's to 308 round listed with the others damage wise? Do i need to get a saiga in 5,45x39?

Edited by Unknown Poster

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I shot my 5.45 at 500 yards again yesterday, Did just fine as usual. vI was hitting pop up targets and steel gongs at 350 yards every shot. :haha:

 

anyone know what velocity of 52 grain 5.45 russian surplus would be at 500 yards? 70*F, 200 feet above sea level, 16" barrel

 

This is from 1982 Russian AK-74 military manual for

53 grain military round from a 16.3 inch barrel with a muzzle velocity of 2970 ft/sec

(Which should line up perfectly for the saiga using Russian military surplus)

 

Lifted from another site by 1911, no guarantees

 

Velocity in ft/sec

Distance in meters

0 = 2970

100 = 2673

200 = 2340

300 = 2056

400 = 1792

500 = 1508

600 = 1310

 

Wind Drift for 10mph at 90 deg.

100 = 1.2in

200 = 4.3in

300 = 9.1in

400 = 20.5in

500 = 34.3in

600 = 52.8in

 

Bullet drop in inches

Zero at 100 meters (sight set at 1)

50m = 0

100m = 0

150m = -1.2

200m = -3.9

 

Zero at 200 meters (sight set at 2)

50m = 1.2

100m = 2

150m = 2

200m = 0

250m = -3.9

300m = -9.8

 

Zero at 300 meters (sight set at 3)

50m = 2.4

100m = 5.1

150m = 6.7

200m = 6.3

250m = 4.3

300m = 0

350m = -6.7

400m = -16.9

 

Zero at 400 meters (sight set at 4)

50m = 4.3

100m = 9.4

150m = 13

200m = 15

250m = 14.6

300m = 12.6

350m = 7.9

400m = 0

450m = -10.6

500m = -25.6

 

Zero at 500 meters (sight set at 5)

50m = 7.1

100m =14.6

150m = 20.9

200m = 25.2

250m = 27.6

300m = 28.0

350m = 25.6

400m = 20.5

450m = 12.2

500m = 0

550m = -16.5

600m = -38.6

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Here's a site/post with a little different chart than the one above.

 

Notice that it states the commercial brands tend to have similar ballistics to the American 30-30 which has been the standard "Brush" gun for years. For all around use, I'm going 7.62.

 

Just my two bits.

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