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Reliability Mods vs. "Break In" vs. "Quick Fixes"


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#1 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:25 PM

Welcome to a rare POLL by Cobra....
This post began as yet another answer to the same old question from a new Saiga 12 owner, about how to "break in" their new S-12. This subject comes up so often now, and the answers are so spread out over the forum, I tried to cover all the key things in one post...and of course it became more of an article.... :rolleyes:
So I decided to copy and paste it into it's own thread, and start a poll. Hopefully this will help a lot of new Saiga owners get the real info they need, in order to get the most out of their new favorite (or not yet) weapons. The info I'll provide in this post, is MY OPINION, and it's based on the past 7 years of daily experience, and dedication to this site and this particular.weapon. There are lots of answers to the "break in period" question...these are mine.

It used to be pretty much SOP, to go out and run a bunch of magnum ammo through a brand new S-12 or S-20...and you could expect this to make the gun run better. This became known as the "Break In Period"... Now things have changed though. There's only so much truth to the "break in" period that so many people like to talk about. It's not as important anymore, as most people think. It's not a magic fix, and should not be considered standard procedure any more. Times have changed, and the way the guns come from the factory has changed. The gun was built the way the gun was built. These things can be like snowflakes.... with MANY inconsistencies in their construction. You may get a good one, or you may get a lemon. Taking a lemon and beating the crap out of it does NOT always make lemonade. Sometimes all you get is a smashed lemon, a sore shoulder, an empty wallet, and frustration. :killer:
Don't pay any attention to people who say it needs to be "broke in" with heavy loads. That theory used to be popular, back when the guns were mostly all made right. Back then, they mostly had enough gas ports, and were built straight so they didn't have a problem getting the gas to the bolt carrier, where it HAS to go in order to cycle the weapon....and ENOUGH of it. Back then yes...you could go out and run a hundred rounds of heavy loads through it, and it was usually GTG.

That is NOT true any more. These days there can be any number of other things wrong...it may have defective parts (like the gas plug I just saw last week with NO bevel for access to the ports... :rolleyes: ... or the gas block may be on crooked, or too far back...covering parts of, or entire ports...or the ports themselves might be undersized, or missing all together. It's more important now than it ever used to be, to get right to the root of the problem, on what can be done to make an ordinary Saiga, function like a specially tuned, high performance race gun. There are things we have learned since the old "shoot the crap out of it til it works" days....nowadays we know things to do that will make the gun get the most out of what gas it does have, from different types of ammo. Keep in mind also, that these guns are not built to run good on low powered K Mart ammo. In Russia they use more powerful ammo.

It's better these days, to take every one of these guns, and either do the work yourself to correct all the problem areas of friction, which robs power from the action....or send the parts (bolt and carrier...and hammer if it's a converted gun) off to the various vendors who do this service, and have it done right. I offer this service at Cobra's Custom...Theres are other vendors here who also do a fine job. Pauly does them....Jack Travers does them.....we all do a great job, and have made countless Saiga owners happy with the guns they thought they had wasted their money on. Only the people who have had this done, or have done a great job on it themselves, (or at least handled a weapon that's been tuned up properly...) can really appreciate and understand the huge difference it makes. The rest can beat their guns to death all they want, but they will never have one that runs as smooth and nice as one of ours, on all ammo. There are very reputable custom builders here on this forum, who will build you a custom gun that has had all these mods done to it. That's why those guns command premium prices, they are well worth it.

Also, don't fall into the trap a lot of others do, and go buying all the myriad of different "miracle fixes" that are on the market, until you have first addressed the real problem at it's core. There are lots of after market springs, pucks, gas plugs, etc, that will help a problem gun get a little bit more benefit from the gas it's capable of delivering to the piston / bolt carrier. What the problem is though, is you go and buy all that mess and throw it in your gun....then it may work or it may still have the same problem. Then once you are finally forced to fix the real problem, you have all extra crap in there you don't need, that will now make your gun .....oh God I hate to even use the term.......OVER GASSED.....there I said it...lol. :sadam:

Even if you don't get the bolt and carrier / FCG upgrades, to make the gun run as good as it's capable of.... let's say you just continue to pump money into higher powered ammo and after market parts, til either you give up and drill out the gas ports, or get rid of the gun.
If you go ahead and drill the ports, like should have been done right the first time... :rolleyes:.... then your gun will no longer have the parts in it that it was designed to work with, and will likely wear them out, or wear itself out prematurely.
Or let's say you add all these extra lightweight springs, pucks, and other parts.... then keep pounding it into submission with expensive ammo.... til it finally wears off all the paint, burrs, and other crap that polishing would have taken care of. It slowly and gradually starts to work better and will even cycle some light loads, some of the time....or eventually most of the time.....

Do you trust it? Do you enjoy shooting it? When you rack the bolt, do you feel that ultra smooth action, that can only come from having it professionally upgraded (or doing it yourself if you are capable and have the right tools, and knowhow, to get the best possible benefit from it)? When you try and load a full magazine into the gun...does it rock and lock right in, with little or no effort, no fumbling, or lost time? No it doesn't...not if all you did was polish the paint off the bottom of the bolt...or put a magwell on it.
All that extra pressure you feel on that top round while trying to insert that fully loaded 10 or 12 rd, or even 5 rd mag.....or even a drum with one less round than capacity....and all that excess friction you feel when the bolt carrier is moving back and forth...(over the painted rails and a rough surfaced hammer)...with it's own rough painted surfaces underneath, and in the rail guides....and the extractor as it has to climb the ramp while the bolt goes into battery....the friction of the bolt lugs rubbing against painted surfaces on the trunnion....ALL THAT is part of what it slowing your gun down and making it not want to cycle. Sure a good lube helps...but only so much without polishing. If your ports are even close to being capable of delivering enough gas to operate the weapon, then these mods...the FIRST that should be done to the weapon, will most likely get it running like a champ. Only after that, should you consider buying extra parts or drilling ports. The problems loading full mags and drums, and the power robbing friction, will never change without fixing the bolt, removing the paint everywhere, and polishing the metal smooth. The paint removal will eventually happen, but unevenly...once the gun has fired many many rounds.....but the bolt will still be way over built, and cause excess friction, and hinder loading full mags on a closed bolt. Having to open the bolt and hold it back while loading the drum or stick mag...whether by hand, the factory BHO, or even a LRBHO....is an extra step that's not necessary. It takes extra time and effort. The gun can be made to work great with only factory parts installed...they just need to be slightly modified to get the most performance out of it.

Please post your own reliability fixes you have actually done to your own weapon, or had done, and tell us how much difference it made with the way it cycled. The purpose of this thread is more than just to drum up business for those who build and tune up Saigas, it's to try and explain exactly WHAT it is that needs to be done to get the most out of a Saiga, and WHY.



Good luck and happy shooting!

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#2 StudentDeSaiga

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:53 PM

IMO this order: 1, 3, 2, 4, 5

My opinion may be jaded as I consider myself lucky with my Saiga; cycles low power shells on 2, cycles everything else on 1. And this is STRAIGHT out the box, no cleaning, NO LUBE.

I don't think a high brass diet out the box is "punishing it into submission", you're just shooting what it was intended for.

I had originally planned on getting aftermarket gas parts as part of the 922r bullshit but with how well mine's running...? If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Personally, and I'm not a Saiga expert (hence the name) but I think someone should run it dry with buck and slug. Experiment with low brass after a good oiling. If that doesn't work then look at the gas ports and into friction reduction. Parts swapping and especially port drilling would be the last thing I would want to do. JMO.

#3 Bridis

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:54 PM

Voted.

#4 StudentDeSaiga

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:56 PM

Hmmm, I voted but it didn't change anything...?

This ain't a Florida booth is it? lol
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#5 kindapointless

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:57 PM

First thing I did was completely dissasemble the entire gun and inspected all my parts just because I wanted to know how my new weapons system worked. I checked my gas ports and realigned my sight block. I then restored the fcg to the way its supposed to be. Profiled the hammer myself and then polished the bolt bolt carrier and the carrier rails in the reciver. I did this all without even shooting it once. I now put about 400 rounds a week through it with only the occasional problem and that stems from the dirty ammo I shoot. It cycles everything but winchester bulk and it will still try it just not 100 percent. Factory plug and puck.

#6 King of the Hill

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:59 PM

I don't think Kmart sells ammo anymore.
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#7 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:16 PM

StudentDeSaiga, I agree, they were made to shoot heavy loads, so it won't hurt anything to ride em hard and put em up wet. I just don't think that's a method that should be used to try and get them to work if they are stubborn.
In order for a vote to be counted, you have to also click the "vote" button after making your choices. You can see who voted for what by clicking "view" beside the % of voters....

Thanks for the useful posts guys...keep em coming.

Yeah that's real useful info there KOTH...thanks a bunch.... Kmart, Wamart....same difference....Posted Image
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#8 fanaticalbucsfan

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:18 PM

From personal experience my opinion is that the most important piece to the puzzle is that your gun must be properly gassed. You can have your parts professionally polished and re-profiled by Pauly (OR COBRA, or others....) and spend all your money on aftermarket gas plugs, pistons, pucks springs or anything else you can find and it wont help to make your s12 reliable if it doesn't have properly drilled gas ports. My idea of a reliable s12 is to be able to feed it ANY ammo and to have it feed, fire and eject flawlessly. If you have a "vodka special" that is not properly gassed, your first step should be to fix that and then you can go from there by modifying it to suit your style.

Edited by fanaticalbucsfan, 10 April 2011 - 04:56 PM.


#9 Tombs

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:20 PM

Polishing never hurts.

While I was converting my 308 I did a full bolt polish on it like I did for my 12. Wound up with a gun that operated smoothly as glass the first time I ever fired it.
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#10 King of the Hill

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:25 PM

In order for a vote to be counted, you have to also click the "vote" button after making your choices. You can see who voted for what by clicking "view" beside the % of voters....

Thanks for the useful posts guys...keep em coming.

Yeah that's real useful info there KOTH...thanks a bunch.... Kmart, Wamart....same difference....Posted Image

Sorry it was not useful to you, it might be useful to the guy thinking about going to Kmart for ammo.

Edited by King of the Hill, 10 April 2011 - 07:20 PM.

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#11 King of the Hill

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:26 PM

Edit: Removed to stay on subject of thread.

Edited by King of the Hill, 10 April 2011 - 07:18 PM.

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#12 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:30 PM

From personal experience my opinion is that the most important piece to the puzzle is that your gun must be properly gassed. You can have your parts professionally polished and re-profiled by Pauly (OR COBRA, or others....) and spend all your money on aftermarket gas plugs, pistons, pucks springs or anything else you can find and it wont help to make your s12 reliable if it doesn't have properly drilled gas ports. My idea of a reliable s12 is to be able to feed it ANY ammo and to have it feed, fire and eject flawlessly. If you have a "vodka special" that is not properly gassed, your first step should be to fix that and then you can go from there by modifying it to suit your style.


I would like to say again here, the point of this poll is not talking about guns with obstructed of insufficient gas ports. I'm only referring to guns that are just plain Jane NIB guns that are slow to cycle. Sure...any Saiga shotty can be forced to deliver more gas to the carrier, by enlarging or adding ports. That can also cause other issues I do not want to derail this thread talking about....
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#13 REDHORSE

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:43 PM

On my newly acquired Saigas, I'm going this route with my new S12s.

Before doing any mods, I test fired the shotguns with various low brass ammo that I had from WalMart, I didn't have any of the 100rds value packs. I typically buy the Federal 6 & 7½ Game loads for 3-Gun matches anyways for my Rem 11-87. Both of my new S12s ran fine with the gas port set to 2 with my various Federal and Winchester ammo.

a. Sent out my bolt carrier, bolt, and fcg to be professionally polished and reprofiled. Also doing the left side charging handle.
b. Since I'm adding weight to the carrier with the LCH, I'll be using the new MD Arms booster puc.
c. I'm Dura Coating the S12, so I figured I might as well take the gas block off to confirm the sizes of the three ports and reshaping the gas port opening in the block into the shape of a "D" to make sure the gas ports are not partially blocked. I figured I'd do this before I refinish the whole gun, so that I would not have to do it after it is refinished.

I figured with the V-Plug and Booster puc I will be able to run any cheap low brass ammo reliably.

#14 StudentDeSaiga

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:52 PM

I just don't think that's a method that should be used to try and get them to work if they are stubborn.


I concur.

Wonder how many people who didn't know of this forum - bought a Saiga, couldn't get it to cycle low brass and wrote the S12 off as junk.

If I had a Saiga that would only cycle buck/slug I would still be happy as long as it was 100% with those two. Rarely see a thread with those loads failing. I understand wanting the whole 9 yards in terms of reliability in load variety but heavy is what she's made for and as long as she'll do that, take comfort I say.

As to the vote, I'll try again...

#15 jmzzl

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 02:57 PM

3, 4, 1, 2, 5.

Edited by raptor9000, 10 April 2011 - 02:57 PM.


#16 SCHULTZE

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 03:17 PM

My most recent S-12 ran 100% right out of the box but I still like to run 500 round or so thru it before "restoring" it and on this one I sent the BCG off to "some guy" :angel: to see what kind of work he does and will be getting one of his SRT triggers and i will see if I can make a perfect gun run even better.

Edited by SCHULTZE, 10 April 2011 - 04:07 PM.


#17 TwentyNizzo

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 03:25 PM

I believe it's debatable between friction reduction and increasing the gas ports to the proper size and removing any obstruction.

The reason I say it's debatable is because I am very cautious about sending my bolt, carrier and FCG off to be reprofiled. I really didn't want anyone reprofiling mine by hand - too much variation and room for error. So, mine is being done by CNC and will be finished up by a professional.

Personally, I started out by enlarging my 3 factory ports to 3/32" and removing some obstruction. Federal bulk pack went up from around a 35-40% failure rate to a 3% failure rate (FTE). But, it's definitely overgassed with 3" magnum loads. The factory plug simply cannot limit the gas flow enough with the additional port size. I've read that the 19" guns will work perfectly with high brass loads with 2 small ports and I believe it. Anyways, with the increased gas flow that's where my new V-plug comes into play. Also, my gas work was done before the booster puck and the likes came about. I would have tried that before doing anything. Whatever the result is, I do not believe in changing parts out to shoot different ammos. I need to be able to switch from various ammos on the fly.

Edited by TwentyNizzo, 10 April 2011 - 03:27 PM.


#18 Cobra's Custom LLC

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 04:15 PM

I don't know what is wrong with this poll thing...but I didn't intend for people to be able to vote for more than one answer to the first question...I didn't check that box.
That kinda defeats the purpose of choosing which is the first thing someone should do, don't ya think?Posted Image
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#19 Makc

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 04:23 PM

I voted #5 to follow-up with #3.

I have two guns that had constant FTE's with low bras.

I took the gas blocks off, drilled the holes larger with 5/64" drill bit (both guns are 4-ports) - not a single FTE's ever since!!!

Now it is time to remove some friction from the weapon and make a run nice and smooth!!!
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#20 Boomstick12

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 05:19 PM

How about just shoot it? If all three holes (or 4) are present, it should fire almost anything. Once mine was fixed, I went straight to bulk pack. Works like a charm.

#21 S-12 Pauly

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 06:17 PM

I am very cautious about sending my bolt, carrier and FCG off to be reprofiled. I really didn't want anyone reprofiling mine by hand - too much variation and room for error. So, mine is being done by CNC and will be finished up by a professional.

Good luck with that.
I know those letters "C.-N.-C." bring images of perfection to your mind, but your logic may be flawed.
They're only good for a repeatable process on a consistent product.

Personally, when doing these I measure them at 8 points MANY times throughout my process to end with GlassBolt's shape alone.
The factory variances of each point are absolutely ridiculous piece to piece. One could never program a CNC to do nearly as consistent of a job as a person who knows what, where, & how to measure & hand fit. Not to mention which area of which facet, surface, or aspecet to do what to, & more importantly, what NOT to do to each surface, area or facet. Let alone, what each area of what does in relation to what each other area does to what ever else.
If you tried to write a CNC program, in the best case scenario 1/3 would be right, 1/3 would be wrong & 1/3 would be punched through or destroyed and in need of extensive repair.
Unless the shop is an S-12 geared shop & a competent one at that, all you have is "some dude" with an expensive machine doing the same hack-job as "some dude" with a cheap one.
If your guy screws upm at the earlier steps though, he just gets to watch his expensive machine screw up your part until he realizes that he should probably hit the stop button.


Each would still be a one-off & the only difference would be compensating for an unsteady hand, not to mention the random CNC operator with no expertise in the platform would have to learn proper engineering of the process for the best improvement of function & optimal friction reduction. Then to do it right, he'd still have to figure out where, when & how to measure all the specific points then he'd still do it multiple times.

You seem to be neglecting the fact that every one of these is a 1-off piece made by hand by some drunk russian guy.

Be prepared to pay a CNC shop many hundreds of dollars for setup for each lower functioning piece & still have a lower quality polish, because unless they're a prototype shop, they likely won't have their finishing down & even if they have their finishing down, I hope they've engineered what level of finishing to do to which area so the surfaces will work with eachother for optimal performance..
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#22 fauxknight

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 06:27 PM

I think a little it of 1(breaking in with ammo), but just to get the parts moving and work out any small burrs from the factory, still its only going to do you so much good. From there you need to see what your issues are and probably go to 2 (parts) or 3 (polishing). 4 (prayer)is pointless, and 5 (more bigger holes) should only be for drastic measures on weapons that have significant port issues.

What I found is that my Saiga had no issues cycling slugs, buckshot, heavy game loads, or high velocity target loads, but it wouldn't cycle light target loads at all. I ran about 150 rounds of high brass total and it continued to function exactly the same. I popped in one of Mike's booster pucks (this morning) and it cycles light target loads at 95% now. The rounds that didn't cycle are because the bolt didn't close (well ok I had one stovepipe, but most shell ejections were fairly healthy and the bolt just didn't close), this seems to be more a friction issue than a gas issue, so polishing is next on my list.

Edited by fauxknight, 10 April 2011 - 07:15 PM.


#23 PJJ

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 06:56 PM

Personally, I feel what SHOULDN'T be done to a NIB Saiga12, is as important as what SHOULD be done.

And that is, don't load the gun up with every aftermarket gizmo on the internet. Shoot it as it comes out of the box, with a variety of loads, and using only the 5 round OEM magazine. Keep the Surefires, the rails, the lights, red dots, drums, gas plugs, miracle pucks, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, off the gun until you have a very good read as to whether it will shoot anything, everything, or just ever now and again, something. By NOT doing that, you're already addressing what may well be the most common FTF or FTE issue, for which the fix is almost always said to be, "Take the extra stuff off the gun".

I made that mistake, and wasted lots of ammo, chasing a rabbit that sat in plain sight on the gun....and it was after removing all that stuff that I finally found the fix for my problem to be a simple matter of carefully following the combined wisdom and advice found on the "How to polish the bolt" thread. I went on to polish the bolt, the feed ramp, the carrier rails, removed a tad from the ejector, and even rounded off just a bit, the boss in the bolt that adds the rotation when coming into battery (especial care in doing this was recommended in the thread noted above, and I was careful to follow it). Shucks, I even polished the receiver cover, which I suppose doesn't do a thing for reliability, but it suits me just fine.

I now have a Saiga 12 that I wouldn't hesitate to depend upon for my very life....and shoot mostly, my own reloads, which in all probability are of a substantially lesser quality (and less expensive) than those most Saiga folks are using. And it shoots them WF (that is, Without Fail).

So, first, don't, then when you truly know, then do, if needed.


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#24 TwentyNizzo

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 06:59 PM


I am very cautious about sending my bolt, carrier and FCG off to be reprofiled. I really didn't want anyone reprofiling mine by hand - too much variation and room for error. So, mine is being done by CNC and will be finished up by a professional.

Good luck with that.
I know those letters "C.-N.-C." bring images of perfection to your mind, but your logic may be flawed.
They're only good for a repeatable process on a consistent product.

Personally, when doing these I measure them at 8 points MANY times throughout my process to end with GlassBolt's shape alone.
The factory variances of each point are absolutely ridiculous piece to piece. One could never program a CNC to do nearly as consistent of a job as a person who knows what, where, & how to measure & hand fit. Not to mention which area of which facet, surface, or aspecet to do what to, & more importantly, what NOT to do to each surface, area or facet. Let alone, what each area of what does in relation to what each other area does to what ever else.
If you tried to write a CNC program, in the best case scenario 1/3 would be right, 1/3 would be wrong & 1/3 would be punched through or destroyed and in need of extensive repair.
Unless the shop is an S-12 geared shop & a competent one at that, all you have is "some dude" with an expensive machine doing the same hack-job as "some dude" with a cheap one.
If your guy screws upm at the earlier steps though, he just gets to watch his expensive machine screw up your part until he realizes that he should probably hit the stop button.


Each would still be a one-off & the only difference would be compensating for an unsteady hand, not to mention the random CNC operator with no expertise in the platform would have to learn proper engineering of the process for the best improvement of function & optimal friction reduction. Then to do it right, he'd still have to figure out where, when & how to measure all the specific points then he'd still do it multiple times.

You seem to be neglecting the fact that every one of these is a 1-off piece made by hand by some drunk russian guy.

Be prepared to pay a CNC shop many hundreds of dollars for setup for each lower functioning piece & still have a lower quality polish, because unless they're a prototype shop, they likely won't have their finishing down & even if they have their finishing down, I hope they've engineered what level of finishing to do to which area so the surfaces will work with eachother for optimal performance..


Thoughtful points, but I have absolute confidence that the gentleman doing mine is the best around.

#25 Calijohn

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 07:54 PM

Personally I think it should almost be a given to have your bolt polished and shaped by Pauly, and to install the md arms v-plug even if your able to fire low brass out of the box.

#26 DANE AXE

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 08:56 PM

Calijohn,+1 on the v-plug . didnt fire mine without it. five settings vs two. no brainer.
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#27 TacticoolTim

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Posted 10 April 2011 - 10:12 PM

Personally I think it should almost be a given to have your bolt polished and shaped by Pauly, and to install the md arms v-plug even if your able to fire low brass out of the box.


Personally, other than the money spent on fixing something that isn't broken, I agree. Not knocking anyone's work, but all I have run since day one was low brass. I've had two FTE's (Winchester) with less than a hundred rounds through it. Since then, nirvana. I have never ran any high power stuff through it and it performs flawlessly. Yes, I suppose I've been lucky but it's about time I was on something.

I would have voted "My Saiga shotgun ran perfectly right out of the box, and would cycle low brass without any mods." but it wouldn't accept my vote. I've promoted Saigas because I believe in them and always tell people I let shoot it "Pull the trigger as fast as you can and see what you think." The end result is always a big grin. Gotta love it.

BTW, I have absolutely no doubts as to the integrity and expertise of Pauly or Cobra 76 and if I had issues I would go the polish route first. Actually, I wouldn't. I'd have one of them do it. I may have them do it anyway because of something else mentioned. Loading on a closed bolt. It's not that I can't do it (after some practice) but I have an aversion to letting my Saiga 12 sit with a shell being pressed against the bolt and figure with the bolt relieved this would be less of a problem. I may be wrong, but assume there would be less chance of deformation and FTF if this modification were performed. My 12 will never be my primary "go to" gun as long as this issue exists. Other than the Russian answer of steel cased shells (Can we get any?) I keep a slug as the top round in the magazine. I believe it was Pauly that offered this tip.

Tim
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Saiga 12/Saiga 223/Saiga 308/AKA 7.62x39 and several off brand weapons as well.

#28 S-12 Pauly

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 12:09 AM


Personally I think it should almost be a given to have your bolt polished and shaped by Pauly, and to install the md arms v-plug even if your able to fire low brass out of the box.


Personally, other than the money spent on fixing something that isn't broken, I agree........

............ I may have them do it anyway because of something else mentioned. Loading on a closed bolt................
Tim

That's the original reason for the mod being started in the first place.

As issues arose with reliability, the modification evolved into a different form for maximum friction & resistance reduction while maintaining the aspect of ease of mag insertion on a closed bolt.
That's how my personal process evolved at least.

Many people come from differing angles, but it's like the evolution of cars. There's only 1 shape that's the MOST aerodynamic, so they all are beginning to look similar.

We all eventually seem to end up with eachother's pieces to do different services that we all offer to different aspects of parts, so it's no secret between any of us what the other guys do. Eventually through competition they'll all be exactly the same regardless of who started what different aspect.

We're not quite there yet, but at that time if the S-12 is still around, hopefully for me at least, I'll be on to producing products that I can get the same out of as I do right now spending hours on 1 bolt & carrier set.
Every penny of profit goes back into the shop or invested into something else profitable for that purpose.

Honestly, if you think about it & deduct shipping costs, we're all doing a major modification brought to perfection for $80.00 which is chump-change for the amount of work, let alone skill. It could justifiably be sold for $255.00 at the going shop rate of $85.00 an hour.
Go to your local brick & mortar shop, show the guy a GlassBolt with FCG tuning & try to get that done for 80 bucks & they'll laugh you out of the shop being as they charge half that ($40.00 with a week turnaround) to simply take 10 minuets to run a dremel up your pistol's feed ramp & polish it.

Fact of the matter is that the AK crowd tends to be a touch tighter with the purse strings than say, the Sako crowd, so fees must be adjusted.
So yeah guys, GlassBolt won't be around forever.
Personally I don't intend on doing it for years & from what I understand, nobody else intends on doing theirs to their level for the going rate forever either.

These mods will eventually go the way of high quality hand crafted jewelry.

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#29 TacticoolTim

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 09:48 AM



Personally I think it should almost be a given to have your bolt polished and shaped by Pauly, and to install the md arms v-plug even if your able to fire low brass out of the box.


Personally, other than the money spent on fixing something that isn't broken, I agree........

............ I may have them do it anyway because of something else mentioned. Loading on a closed bolt................
Tim

That's the original reason for the mod being started in the first place.

As issues arose with reliability, the modification evolved into a different form for maximum friction & resistance reduction while maintaining the aspect of ease of mag insertion on a closed bolt.
That's how my personal process evolved at least.

Many people come from differing angles, but it's like the evolution of cars. There's only 1 shape that's the MOST aerodynamic, so they all are beginning to look similar.

We all eventually seem to end up with eachother's pieces to do different services that we all offer to different aspects of parts, so it's no secret between any of us what the other guys do. Eventually through competition they'll all be exactly the same regardless of who started what different aspect.

We're not quite there yet, but at that time if the S-12 is still around, hopefully for me at least, I'll be on to producing products that I can get the same out of as I do right now spending hours on 1 bolt & carrier set.
Every penny of profit goes back into the shop or invested into something else profitable for that purpose.

Honestly, if you think about it & deduct shipping costs, we're all doing a major modification brought to perfection for $80.00 which is chump-change for the amount of work, let alone skill. It could justifiably be sold for $255.00 at the going shop rate of $85.00 an hour.
Go to your local brick & mortar shop, show the guy a GlassBolt with FCG tuning & try to get that done for 80 bucks & they'll laugh you out of the shop being as they charge half that ($40.00 with a week turnaround) to simply take 10 minuets to run a dremel up your pistol's feed ramp & polish it.

Fact of the matter is that the AK crowd tends to be a touch tighter with the purse strings than say, the Sako crowd, so fees must be adjusted.
So yeah guys, GlassBolt won't be around forever.
Personally I don't intend on doing it for years & from what I understand, nobody else intends on doing theirs to their level for the going rate forever either.

These mods will eventually go the way of high quality hand crafted jewelry.


I'm not arguing your prices, I'm just cheap (Saiga poor). In hindsight, I should have jumped on your introductory deal but since my 12 worked fine as it was, I didn't.

So, in your opinion, would the bolt relief work help keep the top shell in the magazine from deforming while it sat for extended periods? If so, I'll probably get the polish work done just for peace of mind.
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Saiga 12/Saiga 223/Saiga 308/AKA 7.62x39 and several off brand weapons as well.

#30 Terry Ruin

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Posted 11 April 2011 - 11:08 AM

When I left the shop with my S12, I went straight to the range with some Winchester from walmart. It stove piped every round. After finding this site, and reading about "vodka specials" I called RAA to get my gun checked out. When I took it in to them, the took it apart and looked at all the possible problem areas. My 3 gas ports were fine. Gas block was positioned correctly. The bolt carrier was very rough and they suggested a good polish would fix the problem. So I bead blasted it, polished the friction surfaces, smoothed out the groove that the bolt slides in, and now it cycles almost anything. I mainly shoot federal bulk from walmart as it still doesn't like the Winchester. I think I'm also going to polish the rest of the FCG and make it operate even smoother. This is the only "fix" I have done to mine other converting it.




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