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hubel458

12ga, 10ga, 8ga, 4ga FH; 585HE / 700HE; Other Big Bores

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I'm visiting here to talk about the 12ga From Hell and

other developements it has led to.Nice site you folks have.

I'm with a group of experimenters passing on the years of

info and pictures to all gun nuts around the net, about

12ga From Hell and other big bores. We have posted some

round the net about our many ideas we have implemented for

12ga,10ga,8ga,4ga,28ga,20ga,16ga, and my 585HE/700HE wildcats.

 

The idea for the 12ga FH, and the first gun built for it,

was Rob Garnicks on the AR Forums. In the first picture,

a heavy duty Borchardt falling block. He has gotten

1000 gr to 3000 fps in this, a high pressure action.

 

Then I and others joined in and set up a big variety

of guns for the case. The case, a brass case 3.85" long,

made from BMG brass expanded out with straight sides,

to take 12ga .729" dia slugs and a 12ga size rim added on.

Also we get turned brass cases from Rocky Mtn Cart of that

length and shorter. Many guys used 3.5" cases, as standard

reamers are available, and 12ga 3.5" guns are available,

so that they could shoot 3.5" plastic also. Our 3.85" chamber

and 3.5" will shoot any of the shorter cases.

In our work we found ways to get over a third more velocity

in shorter plastic and brass cases using slower powders

than regular fast shotgun powders. We reloaded fast

rifle powder, IMR 4759, IMR 4227, in larger amounts

and got 600gr hard lead slugs over 1800 fps in 24" barrels,

and were lab tested to be at or under magnum shotgun

pressures that are used in factory 3.5" loads.

 

 

More pictures, the 2nd showing long brass 12ga FH case with

regular 12ga case. Other 12ga FH guns are next,3rd Nef Ultra

heavy barrel with length added, 4th Nef 8ga made by boring

out heavy barrel 10ga, 5th FBW falling block,my 585HE belted

case.The FBW has a 20ga 3.5" extra barrel also.

.And we also worked with 8ga,4ga, in falling blocks, 20ga,16ga

in break actions, and my wildcat 585HE,700HE in various actions.

 

6th picture is our big cartridges from 2 bore on down, in

order-2bore- 4ga- 8ga- 10ga- 12ga FH- 700HE--700H 3.25- 30-06..

7th picture is 4bore falling block we built on our design.

Our 4bore is 1 inch bore.We also helped in getting the barrel

threads larger in the new large MRC PH bolt action to fit our

cases like the 700H 3.25" shown in 8th picture in MRC.

 

9th picture is an 8bore bolt gun a guy on another forum built

from scratch.Last is Savage 210 that Bret in MN set up with

heavy barrel and a recoil reducer put into the hollow stock.

Shown with boot off so you can see the build. He has gotten

saboted 500gr slugs over 3000 in this.We will post a bunch

more info and we welcome your ideas and help. And we'll give

all the help we can to folks ..Ed Hubel

 

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AND WE WILL SOON

 

BE DOING ONE IN SAIGA 12...Ed

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More history of firsts, in our 12ga FH and big bore work.

 

The first gun of mine to have this case was

my Savage 210 in first picture with a regular style

heavy stock. Later changed to thumbhole stock.

I changed barrel to heavy bull barrel and

chambered it for the 12ga FH 3.85" long case.

 

Second picture is the first NEF 12ga Ultra that we put

the first 12ga fH case in. I only had to lengthen chamber.

The same gun now has long barrel and thumbhole stock.

 

Third picture is first NEF 10ga heavy barrel that we put

the 10ga FH in. Gun came with long 30" heavy barrel.

 

Fourth picture is the first 8ga test gun we built using the

super strong 8ga kiln cases with the belt step swaged

down. It is an Enfield that we reamed out to take the

case, like the 12ga Mauser 12ga conversions were done.

And we added extra rear bolt lugs for strength.

 

Fifth picture is the 1st gun my 585HE was put in.

It is an Enfield and gets 750gr bullet 2700 fps.

 

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And in the vein of old time gun actions, of which are various falling

blocks, we like them also for the hairy big bores, like the 8bore and

4bore ones we made over the years, that are pictured above.

Following are 3 pictures of various parts and processes of making the

action, using easy to get small parts, lever, trigger, hammer, etc,

and the action block, breach block from steel blocks in 1st pic.

 

Last 2 pictures are the FBW brand falling blocks, one which is the

Model L that we adapted to the one piece stock and the other is the

smaller Model S with regular two piece stock. Both are set up with

my 585HE. I can run full pressure in the 585.

 

The Model L, I can switch to a 20ga barrel, 600NE barrel,

and my 700HE using moderate loads. Last pic is Model L with

thumb hole stock, and my 585HE case in the action..Ed

 

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Videos, Youtube- blowing up 6gal pail of water -"Grandpa's Cannon"

"Grandpa's First Shot" 12ga FH -- 610gr HP at 2800-3000.

 

We get asked about legality and whether these big cartridges

are DDs. First of all; all shotgun calibers over 50cal are exempt from

being classified as DDs under Title 18 GCA Section 921....

And it doesn't matter what exciting or promo name we call them,

the barrels are still marked for gauge. They can be called 12ga 3 Inch

Super Magnum, 12ga Goose Magnum, 12ga From hell, 12ga 3.5 Express,

12ga Hammerhead, etc, they still are a 12ga case of some length.

And length doesn't matter as long as shorter cases, with straight

sides, and same 12ga(or whatever gauge)base size fit and fire in

longer chambers. IE; 2.5, 2.75, and 3" firing in 3.5", and all of these

firing in our 3.85" longer chamber. IE; you can't take 37mm cannon

shell and neck it to 12ga and have an automatically exempt 12ga

cartridge, as other shorter 12 gauges would not fit/fire in chamber,

and you'd have to get it exempt as sporting. How-

Under the same Section any other over 50cal non-shotgun

cartridge can be classified as Exempt For Sporting Use by

applying for the exemption, like I have done for my cases,and many

others(JDJ-AHR-Etc) have done, as well as cases already sporting

from the old days. Now as for hunting rules in shotgun areas,

game depts may say that you can't use long range spitzer bullets

but must use traditional blunt slugs, for safety. Hunting rules are

varied all over the place.Ed

 

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Now some info on cases and slugs

The 50 BMG brass can be made into some real

great cartridges, our 12ga FH, shown first, showing

cases with rim turned off and threaded; and the 12ga rim

pieces to be screwed on, with finished cases shown.

And 2nd making my 700HE showing original BMG case,

case with belt only, and then expanded out to 700cal.

This makes a super strong big bore case, as I have

fired some 25 times and case is still good.And

it in my big Vulcan bolt gun gets a 1000gr to 3200.

 

3rd picture shows our 4bore/ga case with slugs, and

the 20mm case we make them from. They match the 4bore

turned cases that are used in the Ken Owen doubles.

4th the Rocky Mtn Cartridge, 12ga turned 3.5" cases

with variety of slugs and sabots.In picture first loaded

one is BPI sabot, then 730gr Dixie, then 600gr Dixie,

then RG Henson's solid nose and his hollowpoint.

RMC can make cases any length and any gauge.

5th shows a 12ga FH and 10ga FH we made using steel

basecups taken from 12 and 10 ga cases. We turned down

bases a few thousands of the original brass cases

and epoxied the bases. Used BMG case s for 12ga and

50cal Russian for 10ga.This research came from a

another forum poster, like over half of what we do.Ed

 

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More pictures of 12ga slugs and saboted slugs.

1st The US-S sabot/slug, with the green locked on base,

along with others.The US-S slug is nearly as accurate

in smoothbores, for which it is made, as sabots are

in rifled. those pictured are heavier than most other

brands of saboted slugs.

 

2nd a Jacketed 730gr by RG Henson and a hard,heat treated

600gr by Dixie Slugs in FL, both full bore slugs,

3rd a BPI sabot with hardcast 440gr, .504"

diameter slug. BPIs were intended to use .500" bullets

used in 500S&W, the little larger ones we use seem

little more accurate.Makes tighter fit in rifled barrels.

4th other sabots we tested , 5th brass turned slugs

and there are many other slugs/sabots we'll show..Ed

 

 

usslug.jpg

 

12h.jpg

 

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Quite a few have wanted doubles in our 12GA long case.

Rob is doing one on a big 10ga Zabala double,with Greener

crossbolt lock. He is replacing 10ga barrels with heavy

12ga rifled barrels, mono-blocked into the 10ga breaches

by threading them into the breach sections.

First,2nd,3rd pictures. He is now building and getting

barrel ribs done and the gun regulated.

 

4th picture is my 700HE in a Vulcan bolt action.

5th is the 6gal water pail from the Youtube video, atomizing.

The pail was heavy plastic, full and sealed tight.

That was 12ga 600gr hollow point slug about 3000 fps.

 

 

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CASES-1st is comparison of 12ga FH brass cases, with ours on the

left we made using bmg brass, and 3 on the right that

are of a few we found already done in 12ga size, that is

as long as ours.RMC makes them long as ours and any length needed.

2nd is our long case next to short one.You can see how much

thicker and stronger our case is.

 

3rd is a slug made for rifled, for use in 12ga wadcup, and it

being 16ga size works in our 16ga FH case also, as shown.

4th shows 20ga RMC cases and dies we have found for them.

 

 

5th shows 1500gr 4bore slugs a guy cast for me and cases.

These are hollowbase, as our 4 and 8 gauges on the falling

blocks, are smoothbore. Top loads with these 25-2700.Ed

 

 

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that was unduly rude. It would probably be appropriate to move it to either reloading or "other guns/off topic" but no need for the hostility.

 

I hope you would act better than that in person.

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Just passing out info to see if we can make more

big bore nuts, by planting a little seed, so to speak.

Wehave no business to sell stuff just doing research.

Some more gun info about what others around the world

are doing with big bores. First is a 4bore Tula pump

gun, made in Russia. A few guys in the US have them.

They are smoothbore and .938" bore. They used a short

3" long plastic case, and we helped some of the

owners get a run of brass cases by Rocky Mtn Cartridge.

Big Al, a poster on the AR Big Bore Forums owns one.

Our 4bore case is a full 1" bore 4.05" long.

Many early 4bores for shot were set up with .935-938"

smooth bores.

 

Second is a bolt gun a guy in Europe did in 1" bore

using 20mm brass expanded, ending up for

headspacing, a small shoulder. It is full length like

ours, instead of shortened like other pipsqueak ones.

3rd is our big and small falling blocks, big one

the 4bore we made and other a FBW Model L in 585HE.

Both stocks need finishing in these pictures

and metal surfaces has to be finished...I'm not a

fancy, finish smith and to busy experimenting,

to get everything real fancy.

 

4th is a 20ga FH 3.5" chamber break action. It is a

CBC and we monoblocked in a heavy long 20ga barrel.

5th is a Mauser 12ga GEHA conversion, that had real

light barrel and cracked stock. We put the extra

Savage 12ga 24", rifled slug barrel we had in it, and

used the strong Savage plastic stock. Still has original

3" chamber and we test our slow powder 3" plastic loads.

Great load with full bore slug, is 600gr Dixie, using

90gr IMR4759, going 1800. This load was lab tested

and verified for speed and only runs plastic case, magnum

shotgun pressures.

 

 

 

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More info on cases, first is our cases where we put in a

bushing to use shotgun primers. Also some of the guys

shorten the cases for use in 3" and shorter chambers.

Magtech makes 2.5" 12ga drawn brass cases that guys

are reloading for use in short actions, like 1887 leverguns.

2nd is 8ga plastic cases we use, the left 2 are

REM and clear is WIN. These can be gotten at BPI

and Precision Reloading. We use roll crimp on

these for slugs and sabots.

1100gr at 2000 is a good load. 9 triple ought buckshot

is a good load. Totals 630gr for the 9, goes 2500

if you want hairy load.

 

3rd are 8 and 10 ga hard cast slugs with hollowbases, we use.

4th is some of our wildcat cartridge stuff, my 585HE cases,

die sets, and reamers. Dies are by CH4D, reamers by Manson.

5th is our 585HE in two break actions, a CBC and NEF.

Both set up by mono-blocking in 585 heavy barrels...Ed

 

 

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More Internet masturbation than spam. But big guns are fun.

 

Yeah, I have to agree. As neat as this stuff is; until S12s are being modded to shoot this stuff, it doesn't belong in this section.

 

I mean, not for nothing.. but single shot break actions have absolutely NOTHING in common with a semi-auto shotgun.

 

Just sayin'.

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We have our hairy loads in autos and others have pumps,

and will get all the stuff on here.We have 12ga autos

we have for testing 3.5" 12ga as well as

one with 585HE barrel in it.Will have pictures

of a bunch of different ones later.Ed

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How would I move this to the Other Guns/Of Topic forum,

mentioned above, which I can see would be a better place.

Be great with me, I just don't want it thrown away.Ed

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Some more gun info. Here is picture of a nice, large diameter

action a fellow built, for big bore use.Nice beautiful machine

work, He put a 700 short case in it. He called it 700WTF.

It would do 12ga, 16ga, 20 ga, etc.

 

Second is the 8 bore we just made on falling block. It is

chambered for now for the 8ga 3.3" heavy duty plastic

case that we use. That we get by swaging the belt down on

the new 8ga kiln cases, that BPI and Precision Reloading sell.

The chamber fires old original 8ga cases also, but a regular

kiln load not swaged, won't chamber, a safety factor for guns not

as strong as the falling block. Guys in the UK gave me the idea

of swaging down the belt on kiln cases, as they did it

to get cases for their old 8ga doubles.

 

Third is the Savage 210 we put a 700 cal barrel in and made it

a 700NE. The 700 NE has same rim diameter as 12ga, but a

smaller base, ,020" smaller, Handles the loads fine, as its

factory loads are the same as our top loads in the Savage

with RMC 3.5 brass cases. Before that I had my 700H 3.25"

belted case in it. Worked great.

 

4th- we made a 28ga FH, a brass case 3.25" long that

RMC made for us. The chamber still fits and fires shorter

28ga plastic cases.Here is one in picture with a 505 Gibbs to show

the size and potential. I put first one in a Mossy 695 bolt gun

with a heavy rifled barrel. The 28ga rifled is same groove

diameter as the 550 magnum, so same diameter slugs work.

 

5th are couple of our 12ga FH cases guys shortened for

short actions, less recoil. Left are 2 inches,right 2.25"

and some have shortened them to 2.5" for use in

guns that will feed loaded 3" plastic. The 3" loaded plastic

and 2.5" brass with slug are about 2.7" overall..

If you folks have questions we'll help if we can.Ed

 

 

 

 

 

 

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What we are doing in getting more power from shotgun calibers

isn't super new or completely novel, most just

modernizing and improving older ideas..

 

In the early days; in my Greener's book he states that

gun with a rifled choke section of the barrel, called

12ga paradox shotgun/rifles, with slugs, heavier powder

charges than shot loads, could hold what amounted to

about 5 inch pattern at 100 yds.

 

And still had over 1800 ft lbs energy at 100yds.

And that is with guns with lighter, thinner barrels

than we have today, so our work is a good extension

of what the early big bore guys did.

 

And then 4bore for guys liking a big challenge, 4th picture.

Thanks to rattler on 24hr forum for the first 4 pics.

 

 

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Continuing-Many have success with all kinds of high-power slug designs and

with extra power, have pushed the reliable range of 12ga slugs/bullets

from 75 yds to 150+ yds. Even in the old days. Here is picture from a 1926

Manton catalog showing, 1st picture, many brass case old time slug loads.

Notice the 20 bore and 12 bore ones with pointed slugs, seems

as ideas to hotrod 20s and 12s are old hat, not quite as strong as 12ga FH

but as strong as some factory hotrod loads now ....We can do more

now due to better guns, powder selection, and accumulated research.

Picture #1 from lancaster and CptCurl on Nitroexpress.

 

2nd picture is from the Greener book, of double 8ga elephant guns.

 

2rd is picture of an early falling block for big bores

called the Field I think. Looks like some other

side levers, looks like lever works forward.

 

And speaking of falling blocks 4th picture is the

start or 'fixins' so to speak for the next step

up, for our 2bore. Same design as the 4 and 8

bores only wider.

 

We are now getting 2.25" OD barrel reamed

out to the two bore size.

And a square hole for breach block done

in that hunk of 4130 steel.Ed

 

 

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Some more stuff from the old days---

First is picture sectioned Explora case and slug, showing how

they kept weight down so that it could be stepped up in

speed in older doubles, that didn't have real heavy barrels.

These guns had short section of rifling at the end

of the barrel or shallow rifling. THis allowed more speed

than old foster slugs which flattened the trajectory,

and along with rifling spin, allowed for longer range shooting.

 

 

Second picture from Greener book here, is of older 4 and

8 gauges.And you can see videos some of these great old

guns on Youtube.

 

Third picture shows steps of making 4bore case, one inch bore,

from 20mm. 2nd in picture is case with base turned and swaged

to size which leaves base smaller than rim, for rimmed case.

Then 3rd case has top expanded to take 1" diameter slug.

last shows the thickness and strength of finished case.

This case matches the turned 4bore case that Ken Owen had made

for the 4bore doubles he built.

 

 

 

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And more from the old days, here is picture of

a variety of slugs being promoted and used a century ago.

And 2nd picture Paradox cases old and new.Bottom one is a

more modern version sold by H&H for slug hunters.

 

3rd is what a 4bore slug, if stop framed so to speak, would

look just leaving the muzzle of the 4bore falling block

we built. Some 4bores were used in the old days but they were

poorly stocked and balanced for taming recoil. Ours with thick

pads, thumbhole stock, proper balance with 1500gr

slug at 2000 all our guys here can handle just fine..Ed

 

gr1.jpg

 

parcases.jpg

 

phbul.jpg

 

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Heavier, longer barrel. Our slow powder loads designed for

more barrel length and weight. When you get a 600gr out

at 1900 fps in 3" case, little extra weight can help,

and part might just as well be barrel which helps

get the higher velocity.And maybe it can be reworked

to handle 3.5" cases.Ed

Edited by hubel458

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I used to read this stuff on other forums with interest, but it's now apparent that you are spamming every potential site regardless of how relevant this information is. I just checked two other sites and you carbon-copied this exact post, pics and all. This has absolutely nothing to do with the Saiga. I'm done reading your updates on this and any other site.

Edited by Makc

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Just trying to get info out and see if we can make more

big bore nuts. Like planting seed and we hope others

will join in with ideas. We have nothing to

sell, the info is all free.Is there reason why some Saiga

owners wouldn't be interested in big bores, anymore

than a big bore nut wouldn't be interested in Saigas ??

 

Some more slug experimenting and developement.

Here are pictures of the full bore Lee Key Slug

we had a guy cast. He took Lee Key mold and machined

it out to cast a .729" full bore slug.

The original Lee mold makes slugs smaller diameter,

so that they fit in a 12ga wadcup.

Slugs are hard cast alloy to take high speeds..

In picture is two MRC 2 5/8" brass 12ga cases with

slugs in them. These slugs with those brass cases are

being tested first in rifled barrels in a guys 1887 WIN,

where they needed short combination to feed from tube.

These slugs have real good shoulder step to

roll crimp against when used in plastic cases.

 

These first ones are 500 gr.The guys are reworking

another die to get the weight up to about 600gr,

that some of our the brass case guys want to use.

So many guys like the 600 gr size, but these with

the partly hollow base allows them to be longer,

for a little more stability,if used in smooth barrels.

Lee molds are not a real high price so it isn't

a bad deal to get them and change them.

 

Some newer slug ideas coming around. First is Brenneke,

a locked on base ounce slug, in sabot at factory speed of

16-1700 or so in 3" plastic.Really go in our 3.5" loads.

Brenekke has had full bore slugs with lock-on seal and

cushion, but this new appliction putting them in a sabot.

Picture #2

 

 

Third is Dupleks, steel slug riding on a plastic band,

penetrates very well. About 1 1/8 oz.And no steel touches

the bore only the plastic.Should have good penetration

witout breaking apart.These are front heavy will get

fair accuracy in smooth bores.

 

 

 

 

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A new slug from the EU,a new 300gr US-S slug with locked

on base, discarding petals, by European Cartridge. Accurate

in smooth bores, Using the same idea as their all brass slugs

we showed above with locked on base, and discarding front petals.

Only these are mostly aluminum to get a lighter slug combo.In the

first picture.In 3" plastic they load to over 2100 with shotgun

powders. In a 3.5" plastic and our slower powders

we can get 2800. 2nd picture some results of penetration tests

in a sand bank they did. The brass centers penetrate like the

all brass ones they make.They are reporting 2" groups from regular

barreled smoothbore pumpguns at 50 yds with scope.Ed

 

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Edited by hubel458

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Thanks for the info. I'm interested at least and I don't go to every gun site on the internet so I haven't seen this before. Don't listen to the whiners, some of these guys just need to pull their panties out of their twat and rinse the sand out.

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Very cool stuff. Keep it coming!

 

My fun shotgun loads tend to consist of 7/8-1-1/2 oz shot and additives for more boom and fuel/air mix fireballs.

 

Yours look fun too, especially if we get a large carnosaur breaking through a time rift. :D

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These big bores are huge fun when they are loaded like ours, so that

when they go off it sounds like a tank gun. And being able to do it

in economical guns, instead off guns costing an arm and a leg,

really makes it fun. And many guys like autos and pumps.

There are no big bore rifles in sporting autos to be had

reasonable, or at all, but we have big auto shotgun calibers, and

Saigas as well as all the others makes it easy. I have a 3.5"

12ga Khan auto, of the grandson, to test loads, and it is a real blast

with the US-S saboted 570 gr slugs at 2000. And if it had

heavy barrel it would do about 20% faster.40% more energy. Ed

Edited by hubel458

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We are always looking for way to shoot 8 and 10s

using easy to get components,cheap, without buying

loaded rounds for big bucks, if available at all.

 

In 8ga falling block, plastic case got 930gr hollowbase

slug to 2300, It is a slug for 10 ga that we expanded

base a little to fit tight in 8ga wadcup. On the left in

picture. At 30 yds 3" group. Just with open sight,

About like the 10ga sight bead. There is enough hollow in

the base it flies pretty good from 8ga smooth barrel.

 

Along same line, in my 10ga 32" smooth bull barrel with a

750 gr .69cal hollowbase Dixie MZ slug in VP100

10ga wadcup about same speed and same accuracy.

Nice to just get a box of slugs that is in stock,

and a 2 cent cent wadcup and Fed 3.5" 10ga plastic cases

and be shooting cheap.And the cases roll crimp nice

down to these slugs...

 

8gawad.jpg

 

A different, interesting style, of 12ga slug, from Russia.

First picture loaded round, in plastic, roll crimped.

Second, two types of slugs they have on the same base.

Base for rifled barrel, little smaller diameter than the

front. Looks like the roll crimp locks against

the edge of the base. Neat idea, and it could have a

flat meplat slug on the front of the base like

the US-S brass slugs from Greece are on the

plastic bases, that I have here. They must use a crimping

die with a deep hollow up in the middle. We have thought

of taking a roll crimper and putting a deeper recess

in middle to load longer nose slugs further out so as to

have more room for our slower powders...

 

rucase.jpg

 

ruslug.jpg

 

 

Here is picture of a great sizer for expanded plastic

cases, a MEC Super Sizer. It operates with collets. Sizes

cases better than factory. Has the power to shrink

expanded basecups. 2nd picture is the roll crimper tool

in drill press, it does plastic cases as good a roll crimp

as the factory does.You can see couple we crimped

behind press base in picture...Ed

 

mec.jpg

 

drill.jpg

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Just trying to get info out and see if we can make more

big bore nuts. Like planting seed and we hope others

will join in with ideas. We have nothing to

sell, the info is all free.Is there reason why some Saiga

owners wouldn't be interested in big bores, anymore

than a big bore nut wouldn't be interested in Saigas ??

 

This forum is for the S12. By your logic why would there be separate option for the S20 and S410?

 

Perhaps I should just post about my M1 Garand on here as well.

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?

 

Did this get moved at some point? it's in the All Weapons - General Discussion -> Other Weapons - SHOTGUNS (non-AK based). It is in the right place on the forum for non-Saiga silly-fun guns.

 

While I'm not sure it'd be worth fussing with a 2.75" overall length all-brass case for slugs out of a saiga, it'd be entertaining to shoot a 4ga.

 

To be honest, though, I'm more interested in big-bore airguns than big-bore rifles.

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I'm glad it got moved here where it fits in better.

Thank you moderators. I could throw in a Garand, as

a big bore, as guys have made them in 458s,

and one would do for my 585SHE.

 

Well the 2 3/4 inch brass case with 600 gr slug will do

over 1800 in brass case. That is over 4300 ft lbs.

Very interesting to shoot by guys who have only

shot slow factory 1oz slug loads.Ed

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