Comments about rifle range visits

[Squeaky 135]

Hello Everyone:

 

I finally got to visit the range last weekend after a long absence. Got familiarized with a .44 Magnum lever rifle. I thought I knew something about guns until a couple of guys showed-up with Accuracy International rifles and I got to talking with them about their guns' specifications, and their hand-loads. I don't think anything except match bullets go through their barrels. We're talking about at least $4,000 rifles. I often see guys with tripped-out customized AR-10s and AR- 15s too. It seems like you're really "somebody" if you have a NightForce scope on your rifle.

 

I'm just happy to have finally found a Savage FCP-K recently that still needs a scope and a bi-pod. Is it ok that my main rifle has been a Rem 700 ADL .30-06? Is it ok that I've been a .308 virgin until now? It's sometimes hard to not compare my equipment to other guys' equipment and feel inadequate (joking - get it?). I do admit, however, that I wonder what guys with multi-thousand $$$ rifles know about guns that I don't. I still manage to keep rounds in the 10 ring at a given distance once I'm sighted-in. I can hit a license plate at 200 yds with iron sights and factory ammo. Am I a lesser man because I do not own a Surgeon or A.I. rifle? Am I a heretic because I do not weigh bullets and shells - just powder - when I reload? Do I deserve to burn because I thought Varget is a department store?

 

Putting joking aside, I am glad to see such men (and to be aware of you guys too) who know so much about rifles and shooting. Why? Because if the stuff really does hit the fan one day, the bad guys are going to have to deal with folks like these men with $4000 super-duper rifles who can hit a quarter at 1,000+yds., and even then that's not a tight enough group for them! Add the fact many of the good folks I encounter at the range are former military and that adds even more to their potential to ruin a bad guy's day. Then you have the deer hunters who have even more rifles sighted to several hundred yards.

 

I strongly sense admiral Yamamoto was correct.

 

Thank you.

 

 

 

 

[gunman1 1,753]

All of my guns went to the bottom of the Potomac river along with professor Langley's flying machine

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Hello Everyone:

 

I finally got to visit the range last weekend after a long absence. Got familiarized with a .44 Magnum lever rifle. I thought I knew something about guns until a couple of guys showed-up with Accuracy International rifles and I got to talking with them about their guns' specifications, and their hand-loads. I don't think anything except match bullets go through their barrels. We're talking about at least $4,000 rifles. I often see guys with tripped-out customized AR-10s and AR- 15s too. It seems like you're really "somebody" if you have a NightForce scope on your rifle.

 

I'm just happy to have finally found a Savage FCP-K recently that still needs a scope and a bi-pod. Is it ok that my main rifle has been a Rem 700 ADL .30-06? Is it ok that I've been a .308 virgin until now? It's sometimes hard to not compare my equipment to other guys' equipment and feel inadequate (joking - get it?). I do admit, however, that I wonder what guys with multi-thousand $$$ rifles know about guns that I don't. I still manage to keep rounds in the 10 ring at a given distance once I'm sighted-in. I can hit a license plate at 200 yds with iron sights and factory ammo. Am I a lesser man because I do not own a Surgeon or A.I. rifle? Am I a heretic because I do not weigh bullets and shells - just powder - when I reload? Do I deserve to burn because I thought Varget is a department store?

 

Putting joking aside, I am glad to see such men (and to be aware of you guys too) who know so much about rifles and shooting. Why? Because if the stuff really does hit the fan one day, the bad guys are going to have to deal with folks like these men with $4000 super-duper rifles who can hit a quarter at 1,000+yds., and even then that's not a tight enough group for them! Add the fact many of the good folks I encounter at the range are former military and that adds even more to their potential to ruin a bad guy's day. Then you have the deer hunters who have even more rifles sighted to several hundred yards.

 

I strongly sense admiral Yamamoto was correct.

 

Thank you.

A rifle behind every blade of grass

[Spacehog 2,218]

You should never feel inadequate with what you bring to range. The purpose of going to the range is to have fun and hone your shooting skills with what you bring. The analogy I use is...it is kind of like golf: the best clubs in the world aren't going to fix a crappy swing. When / if my shooting skills ever out perform my rifle, I'll consider upgrading, until then, I will continue to enjoy the practice.

 

I would also add that I am in no way implying that those gentlemen with the AI rifles somehow were compensating for poor shooting skills. They may have well needed those rifles to go to the next level. Now if they were shooting 4" groups at 100 yrds, that is another thread altogether .

[Arik 565]

Never! I just see their needs are different from mine. There are guys who like to sit and put round after round through the same hole at a gazillion yards. That fine but from begining to end I have no patience for that. I cant sit there and meticulously load each and every round, then go to a range where all you do is sit (hate that bench crap), take your time and shoot one bullet, wait for the barrel to cool then shoot another round. Its slow and borring and drives me nuts. I like movement. I care only for hits not bullseyes.

 

While I would like to try a AI $4k sniper rifle I have no desire to own one.

Edited June 14, 2014 by Arik

[james lambert 3,059]

The Saiga forum is not where you would find the bench rest shooters, or the typical long range guys.

 

In that world, the people HAVE the skills!! It comes down to equipment, hand loads and experience.

 

Not a lot of firearms perform at that level.

 

As a multigun nut, run 'n' gun  is what I like

[IndyArms 10,186]

You should never feel inadequate with what you bring to range. The purpose of going to the range is to have fun and hone your shooting skills with what you bring.

 

 

"Beware the man with one gun... he knows how to use it..." 

 

Thats all you need to remember... doesnt matter WHAT that gun is... 

[Sim_Player 1,939]

I believe shooting is a multi-faceted hobby.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

Best rifleman I ever knew was my Granddad, never saw him shoot with anything that would cost over $20 in 1960s dollars. 

 

Man never missed, literally. Far as is known he kept his 1903 from WW1 until his death in 1961 but we havent been able to locate it.

 

The man is the weapon, the rifle a mere tool.

[mancat 2,368]

I would like to be able to put every round in a 1/4" hole but I really don't have the time, patience, or money to do it. I'm satisfied with being able to reliably hit a 12" steel plate at 200+ yards with every rifle I own, scoped or not

 

I do have a little bit higher expectations of a few rifles I own, particularly those that I take hunting, but nothing like sub-MOA.

 

Now if I had the time to sit there and play with tables of wind, temperature, humidity, and the specs on my handloads, THEN I would probably need a high-dollar rifle, and all of the frustration that comes along with endlessly calculating where the shot should go based on those criteria. Not enjoyable for me, but maybe some day it will be.

 

P.S. many deer hunters only sight in and shoot their rifles once a year, and there's no guarantee on it at any other point in time. I always check my hunting rifle before season starts, even if I haven't touched it in a year. Sometimes it's dead-on and exactly where it was last time I shot it, and sometimes it's six inches off to the side. An eternal mystery.

Edited June 14, 2014 by mancat

[Spacehog 2,218]

I actually like shooting for groups, and do quite a bit of bench rest shooting. But I am a boring guy Granted it can be tedious at times, especially finding loads your rifle likes when reloading. But I also like the run and gun barrier stuff as well. As Sim said, that is the joy of the hobby...there is always something for everyone.

[Sdustin 578]

I like to know what my rifles will do from a rest but don't spend much time doing it. Hell I even shot some groups with slugs from my vepr12.

 

And to the OP youll never notice a difference in the AI rifles and your savage. A good bolt gun is going to be accurate. The difference in a .30" group and a .50" will hardly ever be noticed.

[thebuns1 4,323]

I try to keep my skills honed for the most logical use I'll be using them for. I also prefer shooting multiple targets at various ranges over bench resting my guns. I do from time to time like to take shots and go for tight groups, but dont really go that much into it.

 

One thing to consider is that a 4k rifle is not going to offer any more lethality over a 1k rifle with a decent shooter. The higher in price you go, the better the weapon, but a novice shooter is not going to get the same return out of a 4k rifle that a seasoned shooter will.

 

I shoot with a few guys here that are really into the long range thing. The amount of money they have in some of their gear is ridiculous, but they prefer it. I dont really have a use or desire to shoot much past 300m, and likely wont if the shit goes down. YMMV

[james lambert 3,059]

When we practice we shoot 100 to 600 yds.

In matches we have had to go out 1400 with a stage gun, but I think 700 was the longest with the competitors gun.

 

I like being able to hit the long stuff

[gunfun 3,931]

Well. I play more than truly practice, except for a little defensive pistol stuff. IDPA is fun.

 

I am more inclined to reload like the OP. Ain't nobody got time for some of the stuff the benchrest guys do. Especially when people with half minute guns can't agree on whether it is worth the bother. My current reloading project is to make a cast 308 load which will be consistently under 2 moa, and feed reliably. I think I got that down with my last range trip, but a bit more proving and tuning can leave me sure. The idea is that I'd like to be able to cheaply shoot action matches. IIRC they were around 12-14 cents a round as loaded 183 grain down loaded a little. I wasn't having any trouble hitting bowling pins quickly at 100. I haven't tried any further than that yet.

 

Eventually, I plan to make a casting machine and develop a load which closely replicates the standard ball loads. The goal would be to shoot very cheaply with an effectively unlimited supply, and keep the scope dialed in for factory ammo.

 

The eventual goal is multigun because that is what is fun for me. I know I'd be at the back of the pack, but even that will be a blast. My rifle skills are the weakest, which is why I've been working on them more lately.

 

I find elitists occur in any group and manage to ruin things. I don't see a lot of practical use to a guy who can hold a half minute group but can't get his gun on target and shoot in under 5 seconds. Most of the time in life when you actually need to shoot something, it doesn't give you time to pull out a notebook and do trigonometry.

 

I really liked ed McGivern's philosophy of competitive and exhibition shooting. If it wasn't with full power ammo, the trick doesn't count. He made a big point in doing all his shows and setting his records with pretty much what anyone could buy in a hardware store. -the notion being that a record set with a highly custom rig wasn't comparable to anything his audience could replicate. A record set with a bone stock standard model really meant something.- but of course I like tricking out guns, so that won't ever be me. (I won't be likely to set any records either.)

[DLT 1,646]

I've been at our local range at times when guys show up with their 25-06 scoped rifles and proceed to place three shots into a dime sized area and that's okay.  I admit that's impressive.  But those same guys always freak out when I put all my shots on a paper plate with open sights at the same distance with an AK.  Scoped hunting and target rifles are great, but not something I'm really interested in owning.  I like my hardware.  

[Capt Nemo 882]

Hits are the only thing that really matters.  More accurate hits are just icing on the cake.

[Sdustin 578]

Hits are the only thing that matters, true but if your group is covered by a dime at 100 yards then you're more likely to get a hit at a grand.

[DLT 1,646]

Hits are the only thing that matters, true but if your group is covered by a dime at 100 yards then you're more likely to get a hit at a grand.

Maybe....but the trig calculation gets exponentially more difficult as the distance increases.  100 yards is not 1000.

[Sdustin 578]

 

 

Hits are the only thing that matters, true but if your group is covered by a dime at 100 yards then you're more likely to get a hit at a grand.

Maybe....but the trig calculation gets exponentially more difficult as the distance increases. 100 yards is not 1000.

absolutely what I'm getting at is the more accurate a rifle groups at 100 the more likely you are to hit accurately at longer distances. Edited June 15, 2014 by Ak Monty

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

I can understand the pursuit of the MOA tiger. It is the payoff of work, training, and treasure invested.

 

Practicality on the other hand dictates a purpose must exist and the law of diminishing returns must be served.

To ignore this is to enter a wholly different function than effective marksmanship.

 

So what is the practicality?

What is given up to achieve the desired results just to redefine the standard once the result is obtained?

There is always a cost. 

If you elk hunt at 700m that would qualify as a reason for a sub-MOA rifle/man/ammo at long ranges.

But is it more useful than a 4MOA shooter at 300m, depends on the task doesnt it.

 

It has been pointed out before that a 4MOA minimum of training resulted in devastating losses in war for the other side. 

In combat a sub-4MOA rifleman is flat deadly, ask the Germans of two wars.

Think those Garands Patton thought so highly were 1MOA rifles? Not even, and if some were the adrenal shakes certainly opened things up.

 

We over complicate simple tasks, it is just a given.

I am happy just knowing I could change mags and aim with my hands shaking and my rifle will fire no matter how dirty.

I am grateful knowing I can tote that gear a pretty fair bit at almost 60 years even though the bitch is heavy and can get into a shooting position without my belly fat getting in the way.

I am ecstatic over bringing that rifle to 2MOA with effective ammo knowing that is as good as it will get, more than enough.

Hell I am tickled knowing I can shoot very well with a pistol or carbine or shotie should the need arise.

That is my chosen practicality. It will serve well hunting or otherwise.

 

And yes if the reason and resources existed I would be chasing that tiger also, cause shooting is just damned fun.

[Big John! 2,062]

I've been at our local range at times when guys show up with their 25-06 scoped rifles and proceed to place three shots into a dime sized area and that's okay.  I admit that's impressive.  But those same guys always freak out when I put all my shots on a paper plate with open sights at the same distance with an AK.  

Easy big boy...  You almost drowned me in BS

[Sdustin 578]

 

 

I've been at our local range at times when guys show up with their 25-06 scoped rifles and proceed to place three shots into a dime sized area and that's okay. I admit that's impressive. But those same guys always freak out when I put all my shots on a paper plate with open sights at the same distance with an AK.

Easy big boy... You almost drowned me in BS

ak on a pie plate at 100 is easily doable.

[DLT 1,646]

 

I've been at our local range at times when guys show up with their 25-06 scoped rifles and proceed to place three shots into a dime sized area and that's okay.  I admit that's impressive.  But those same guys always freak out when I put all my shots on a paper plate with open sights at the same distance with an AK.  

Easy big boy...  You almost drowned me in BS

 

No BS.  I've got some target pics I could post, but you probably wouldn't believe them.  All I need is a calm day, a nice sack of deer corn to rest my rifle, and for my eyes to be rested, and I can hit a paper plate all day long.  It's really easy with an AR.  The AK is tricky because you really have to know your rifle. My SGL for example, I have to place the front post to the left of the target at 100 yards to hit where I want.  Closer than that, it's dead on.  But for some reason, I have to adjust like that.  The 22" and 16" S308's on the other hand are dead on at 100.  Every rifle I own has it's own characteristics.  

[james lambert 3,059]

I hate to break it to you....but 100yds aint rifle shooting

In the years I have been shooting matches, 500yds  is where the cans, and can nots diverge.

 

 

I have shot a bit of DCM with my m1 Garand, and it IS a 1moa rifle, and my m1a is better yet.

[Spacehog 2,218]

Pie plates at 100 yrds open sights from a rest with an AK? Yep easily believable. When I had my AES 10-B out for its coronation, I was hitting clay pigeons on the bank 114 yards away with open sights nearly ever time. When I missed it was within 1-2". So putting every round in a 10" target doesn't seem far fetched at all, but somehow I think we missed the humor that was intended in Big John's post.

[Spacehog 2,218]

I hate to break it to you....but 100yds aint rifle shooting

In the years I have been shooting matches, 500yds  is where the cans, and can nots diverge.

 

 

I have shot a bit of DCM with my m1 Garand, and it IS a 1moa rifle, and my m1a is better yet.

Agreed. There is a vast difference between shooting 100 and 500 yards, but the same fundementals that allow one to shoot very tight groups at 100, go along way to improve shooting at 500 and longer, and everyone has to start somewhere.

[james lambert 3,059]

Pie plates at 100 yrds open sights from a rest with an AK? Yep easily believable. When I had my AES 10-B out for its coronation, I was hitting clay pigeons on the bank 114 yards away with open sights nearly ever time. When I missed it was within 1-2". So putting every round in a 10" target doesn't seem far fetched at all, but somehow I think we missed the humor that was intended in Big John's post.

The guys that shoot irons in multigun hit 10'' steel plates out to 500yds.

there is no doubt it can be done, I cant see a 10'' plate at 500yds, so I cant hit them

[Long Shot 1,287]

 

Pie plates at 100 yrds open sights from a rest with an AK? Yep easily believable. When I had my AES 10-B out for its coronation, I was hitting clay pigeons on the bank 114 yards away with open sights nearly ever time. When I missed it was within 1-2". So putting every round in a 10" target doesn't seem far fetched at all, but somehow I think we missed the humor that was intended in Big John's post.

 

The guys that shoot irons in multigun hit 10'' steel plates out to 500yds.

there is no doubt it can be done, I cant see a 10'' plate at 500yds, so I cant hit them

That's why God made optics.

[Long Shot 1,287]

No illusions here about being some kind Demi-god with a rifle.

 

It's a ton of fun to reach the outer limits though. We each have some aspect of the sport that really appeals to us. I like all of it but my favorite thing is practical long range shooting.

 

I'm mostly self taught but everyone with experience and knowledge that I've run into has been down to earth and more than willing to share what they know. Kind of like the majority of the people on this forum.