The FBI is Going 9mm

[Dad2142Dad 6,559]

http://loadoutroom.com/12077/fbi-going-9mm-comes-science/

 

Interesting article

[Ronin38 2,117]

Good article. Now if we could just apply this to the Military forces and start using good (modern) ammo for them! 

[patriot 7,197]

Not gonna happen. Modern (expanding) ammunition is outlawed under the Geneva convention as inhumane.

 

This doesn't apply to the alphabet agencies or law enforcement.

[Sim_Player 1,939]

It sounds like more emphasis should be put on shot placement, for LE, not the caliber.

Edited October 5, 2014 by Sim_Player

[Big John! 2,062]

It sounds like more emphasis should be put on shot placement, for LE, not the caliber.

Yeah, the placement stat's were much less than impressive.

 

 

I think this goes for everyone.  The LE shooting in another thread of dude reaching in his car showed the officer shooting wildly.  It's my understanding (never been in a shooting) that your body does some crazy shit when confronted with a deadly force situation.  I suspect most of these situations are simply point in the right direction and shoot.  Not the cool ass calm to the head hostage shot they show on tv.

[SaigaSlinger 61]

They are also exploring the advantages of sitting down to pee.

[Mullet Man 2,114]

They are also exploring the advantages of sitting down to pee.

LMFAO

[Big John! 2,062]

They are also exploring the advantages of sitting down to pee.

Haha...  Good call!

[DLT 1,646]

Speer Gold Dot HP's are excellent 9mm rounds.  I trust them in my CCW.

[Big John! 2,062]

I trust all ammo in my CCW.

 

After extensive scientific testing, I moved to 9mm from 45 for my EDC's.  Still like my 1911 in which I'm stupid accurate with.

[gunman1 1,753]

I have often thought along these same lines for myself. With my arthritis getting worse, I'm more accurate with the 9mm (because of recoil/ inability to grip as tightly as I used to), though I'm still carrying the 45.

 

Conclusion

While some law enforcement agencies have transitioned to larger calibers from the 9mm Luger in recent years, they do so at the expense of reduced magazine capacity, more felt recoil, and given adequate projectile selection, no discernible increase in terminal performance.

Other law enforcement organizations seem to be making the move back to 9mm Luger taking advantage of the new technologies which are being applied to 9mm Luger projectiles. These organizations are providing their armed personnel the best chance of surviving a deadly force encounter since they can expect faster and more accurate shot strings, higher magazine capacities (similar sized weapons) and all of the terminal performance which can be expected from any law enforcement caliber projectile.

Given the above realities and the fact that numerous ammunition manufacturers now make 9mm Luger service ammunition with outstanding premium line law enforcement projectiles, the move to 9mm Luger can now be viewed as a decided advantage for our armed law enforcement personnel.

[DogMan 2,343]

They are also exploring the advantages of sitting down to pee.

As someone who has sailed on high speed vessels in rough seas I can say that sitting down to pee definitely has it's advantages. Sometimes that's the ONLY way. It only takes one time of hitting a large swell and ending up on the deck in a puddle of piss with a lump on your head and your dick in your hand to make you swallow your pride a have a seat.

I agree with much of the article. There are still a lot of myths and plain false information regarding the "best" caliber.

[Odd Man Out 1,283]

 

It sounds like more emphasis should be put on shot placement, for LE, not the caliber.

Yeah, the placement stat's were much less than impressive.

 

 

I think this goes for everyone.  The LE shooting in another thread of dude reaching in his car showed the officer shooting wildly.  It's my understanding (never been in a shooting) that your body does some crazy shit when confronted with a deadly force situation.  I suspect most of these situations are simply point in the right direction and shoot.  Not the cool ass calm to the head hostage shot they show on tv.

 

It's your fight or flight mechanism kicking in -- your body dumps a bucketload of adrenalin in the system at times like that...

[HB of CJ 1,263]

Interesting article, but in my humble opinion, it is full of bullshit. Taking their train of logic further, all FBI agents should be issued wimpy .22rf handguns...or perhaps just pellet pistols?

 

Or...another viewpoint, issuing .44 mag revolvers and just teaching the agents how to shoot shoot shoot does not enter into the argument at all because power is just a myth and does not count?

 

Interesting. Of course the gender factor can not in any way be considered because that would be politically non correct and therefore off the table of discussion? Again, the article is bullshit.

 

What they are conveniently leaving out of the argument is that if a well trained excellent shot FBI agent gets the same number of (Edit: center) hits with a .44 mag with good bullets, what would be the results?

 

They are not taking the discussion to the logical limits or conclusions. Handguns by their physical nature are not powerful weapons. To compensate, training must be conducted to a higher skill level.

 

The most powerful handgun caliber possible must be employed. The best training with that platform must be conducted as well. They must go hand in hand. To do neither is to invite eventual or immediate disaster.

 

Kinda like bringing fists to a knife fight. Or a Bowie blade to a sword fight. Or a sword to a gun fight. Or a handgun fight to a shotgun fight. Or a shotgun fight to a rifle fight. Just me. HB of CJ (old coot)

Edited October 5, 2014 by HB of CJ

[Capt Nemo 882]

And the # 1 reason for the switch to 9mm......The FBI order for 9mm will dry up the still low supply even more!  9mm will become the new .22LR.

 

9mm FMJ is still in low supply in my area, unless you overpay for it.  No way I'm paying $1+ each for HP!

[Big John! 2,062]

Interesting article, but in my humble opinion, it is full of bullshit. Taking their train of logic further, all FBI agents should be issued wimpy .22rf handguns...or perhaps just pellet pistols?

 

Or...another viewpoint, issuing .44 mag revolvers and just teaching the agents how to shoot shoot shoot does not enter into the argument at all because power is just a myth and does not count?

 

Interesting. Of course the gender factor can not in any way be considered because that would be politically non correct and therefore off the table of discussion? Again, the article is bullshit.

 

What they are conveniently leaving out of the argument is that if a well trained excellent shot FBI agent gets the same number of (Edit: center) hits with a .44 mag with good bullets, what would be the results?

 

They are not taking the discussion to the logical limits or conclusions. Handguns by their physical nature are not powerful weapons. To compensate, training must be conducted to a higher skill level.

 

The most powerful handgun caliber possible must be employed. The best training with that platform must be conducted as well. They must go hand in hand. To do neither is to invite eventual or immediate disaster.

 

Kinda like bringing fists to a knife fight. Or a Bowie blade to a sword fight. Or a sword to a gun fight. Or a handgun fight to a shotgun fight. Or a shotgun fight to a rifle fight. Just me. HB of CJ (old coot)

Annnnd now comes the age old argument.

 

I'll keep my girly 9's.  I like em...

[patriot 7,197]

Any gun is better than no gun, but if you have to choose, pick the biggest thing you're competent with.

[Big John! 2,062]

Any gun is better than no gun, but if you have to choose, pick the biggest thing you're competent with.

Ok...

 

[XD45 7,124]

If I was arming a police force I'd pick 9mm without hesitation.

 

When it comes to arming me, I'll take 45.  I've had a life-long love affair with 45ACP.

 

I see the advantages of 9mm.  But when it comes to buying a pistol I just want another 45.

 

I tried buying a few 9s along the way.  Wound up selling all but one.  That is my Gen1 HS2000.  I keep that cause it's cool.

 

The same thing goes for ARs.  I just don't love them.  I do have one.  It stays in the safe while my other rifles go out to play.

[Capt Nemo 882]

As one gun instructor said, "If you can't put it down with either a 9mm or .45, you don't need a better pistol, you need a rifle."

 

With a PT-92, M11/9, and UZI carbine I'm in the 9mm camp to stay.

[vepr12x 89]

Wonder if .40 is going to end up like 10mm? Expensive and in relatively low demand. 10mm was also abandoned by the fbi.

[storm6490 2,768]

well fuck, there goes all my good stuff.

[Shandlanos 1,470]

Wonder if .40 is going to end up like 10mm? Expensive and in relatively low demand. 10mm was also abandoned by the fbi.

Very unlikely. 10mm was never widely adopted by law enforcement or the citizenry. .40 has been widely adopted by both. Production of both is very high - if anything, if LE demand for .40 winds down there should be a brief period of overproduction in which the price comes way down, a few years after which supply and demand should reach equilibrium again.

[vepr12x 89]

 

Wonder if .40 is going to end up like 10mm? Expensive and in relatively low demand. 10mm was also abandoned by the fbi.

 

Very unlikely. 10mm was never widely adopted by law enforcement or the citizenry. .40 has been widely adopted by both. Production of both is very high - if anything, if LE demand for .40 winds down there should be a brief period of overproduction in which the price comes way down, a few years after which supply and demand should reach equilibrium again.

Makes sense. Theres alot of .40 pistols out there.

[storm6490 2,768]

Maybe this is an excuse for the ABC agencies to set up bids to produce millions or rounds and dry up the market on 9mm?

 

I have a new roll of tinfoil.

[Rhodes1968 1,638]

I love pistol cal carbines, the difference is night and day compared to pistols.

For those go as big as you like, 40 and 45 are freaking great and 9mm will do. I standardized on 40 as a compromise because 10mm was just too hard to shop and when 9mm was not to be found 40 could be. I have no problem with 40 or 45 in a pistol, not sure what all this spunk is about as what is true about 9mm advanced ammo is also true of the larger cals of that same design. 

 

All this FBI stuff is just noise, hell they learned nothing from Miami and that has not changed. They still cant shoot.

[patriot 7,197]

Israeli 9mm SMG ammo is really nice out of my Uzi. It's got some balls for 9mm. ...Just don't put it in a cheap handgun.

[XD45 7,124]

That izzy smg ammo is damn hot.  I don't think I'd put it in any handgun except maybe a stout revolver.

[patriot 7,197]

It's nice stuff. I gave it a go in my High Power....once. You can feel the slide bottoming out.

Definitely SMG only.

[JESS1344 508]

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