Leaving shells in the mag for long time

[RollingThunder 0]

Here is a solution for leaving regular shells in the mag for a long time without damaging them.

 

It has been suggested to use brass shells or slug to avoid deformation of the ammo hence cause feeding problems. Another way is to modify the mag so that the shells are not pushed against the closed bolt until it is time (when the non-invited visitor arrives...). The idea is to avoid prolonged pressure on the front of the shell.

 

This modification cost about one dollar and can be made with a drill in less than two minutes.

 

The modification is ambidextrous and uses a simple pin from a used fire extinguisher.

 

In this case the pin has a diameter of 3 mm. (0.118 inch). I drilled a hole with the exact same dimension. This is to cause enough friction to keep the pin seated regardless of how I handle the gun itelf before it is time for some action.

 

When the mag is loaded and inserted into the gun all I need to do is to rip the pin out and rack the bolt. The shells immediatley pops up to the top of the mag when the pin is pulled.

 

Picture A shows the mag and the pin in various angles. Picture B shows modified mag inserted into the gun with the pin. Please note that the gun itself is somewhat modified on these pictures (safety lever and mag release are extended).

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

I take no resposability for whatever you do to your gun, yourself or anobody else (on either side of the gun). Consider this as a documentation on what I did to my own gun. It may or may not work as intendend on your gun.

 

Also note that this is not a safety device in that it does not prevent you from actually loading the gun. A round can be chambered even with the pin inserted. The pin simply avoind deformation of the top round in the mag.

[Bvamp 604]

now that is a good idea! thanks for sharing

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

Here is a solution for leaving regular shells in the mag for a long time without damaging them.

 

It has been suggested to use brass shells or slug to avoid deformation of the ammo hence cause feeding problems. Another way is to modify the mag so that the shells are not pushed against the closed bolt until it is time (when the non-invited visitor arrives...). The idea is to avoid prolonged pressure on the front of the shell.

 

This modification cost about one dollar and can be made with a drill in less than two minutes.

 

The modification is ambidextrous and uses a simple pin from a used fire extinguisher.

 

In this case the pin has a diameter of 3 mm. (0.118 inch). I drilled a hole with the exact same dimension. This is to cause enough friction to keep the pin seated regardless of how I handle the gun itelf before it is time for some action.

 

When the mag is loaded and inserted into the gun all I need to do is to rip the pin out and rack the bolt. The shells immediatley pops up to the top of the mag when the pin is pulled.

 

Picture A shows the mag and the pin in various angles. Picture B shows modified mag inserted into the gun with the pin. Please note that the gun itself is somewhat modified on these pictures (safety lever and mag release are extended).

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

I take no resposability for whatever you do to your gun, yourself or anobody else (on either side of the gun). Consider this as a documentation on what I did to my own gun. It may or may not work as intendend on your gun.

 

Also note that this is not a safety device in that it does not prevent you from actually loading the gun. A round can be chambered even with the pin inserted. The pin simply avoind deformation of the top round in the mag.

 

Excellent idea mate! I will be doing that in at least one of my mags just to keep by the bed.

 

THIS is the kind of thing that brings people to our site! They want to see our Saiga mods and learn from our experience!

[BobAsh 582]

Good idea!

[Azrial 1,091]

Great Idea! As long as under the pressure of a burglary you don't go into some kind of military flash back, pull the pin, scream, "They are in the wire!" and throw your loaded shotgun at them...

[badman400 3]

RT, thanks for the great idea!

[BobAsh 582]

lol @ "in the wire"...nice.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

In case of gun FIRE,pull pin

[mavrick16o 6]

here here; a truly briliant idea and a cheap simple solution.

 

 

 

Here is a solution for leaving regular shells in the mag for a long time without damaging them.

 

It has been suggested to use brass shells or slug to avoid deformation of the ammo hence cause feeding problems. Another way is to modify the mag so that the shells are not pushed against the closed bolt until it is time (when the non-invited visitor arrives...). The idea is to avoid prolonged pressure on the front of the shell.

 

This modification cost about one dollar and can be made with a drill in less than two minutes.

 

The modification is ambidextrous and uses a simple pin from a used fire extinguisher.

 

In this case the pin has a diameter of 3 mm. (0.118 inch). I drilled a hole with the exact same dimension. This is to cause enough friction to keep the pin seated regardless of how I handle the gun itelf before it is time for some action.

 

When the mag is loaded and inserted into the gun all I need to do is to rip the pin out and rack the bolt. The shells immediatley pops up to the top of the mag when the pin is pulled.

 

Picture A shows the mag and the pin in various angles. Picture B shows modified mag inserted into the gun with the pin. Please note that the gun itself is somewhat modified on these pictures (safety lever and mag release are extended).

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

I take no resposability for whatever you do to your gun, yourself or anobody else (on either side of the gun). Consider this as a documentation on what I did to my own gun. It may or may not work as intendend on your gun.

 

Also note that this is not a safety device in that it does not prevent you from actually loading the gun. A round can be chambered even with the pin inserted. The pin simply avoind deformation of the top round in the mag.

 

Excellent idea mate! I will be doing that in at least one of my mags just to keep by the bed.

 

THIS is the kind of thing that brings people to our site! They want to see our Saiga mods and learn from our experience!

 

It has nothing to do with money. (at least for MOST people)

[Navy87Guy 1]

After fumbling mag changes against a closed bolt this weekend at the Suarez Shotgun Fighting Class, this could be the solution to much more than just a deformed shell problem. This ought to make it exceedingly easy to load a magazine onto the closed bolt -- eliminating half the juggling it takes to reload a Saiga.

 

Now where did I put that fire extinguisher....

 

Jim

[Navy87Guy 1]

Well, I just got around to trying it tonight with one of my AGP mags. A couple of observations:

 

- I can't make it work with 10 rounds..I have to download to 9. Even then, I can barely get the pin in (using the same location as Rolling Thunder) and I have to jiggle it around to get it to line up.

 

- I tried putting the 10th round loose on top of the pin (there's enough friction that the round stays in place). The magazine seats easily on the closed bolt, but that top round won't feed reliably. In fact, it jams the bolt.

 

- With 9 rounds and the pin, it loads easily on the closed bolt.

 

I may still consider this for competition use -- it will probably cut 2-3 seconds off each mag change (I'll just have to get used to putting the pin in my dump pouch). The trade off of 9 rounds for the speed is probably worth it.

 

For HD, I store my S12 with the bolt locked back (I modified the safety select lever to act as a manual BHO) so loading on a closed bolt isn't as big an issue.

 

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear anybody else's experience or ideas on how to work this better.

 

Jim

[ndomres 0]

It's a grenade! Run!

[RollingThunder 0]

Well, I just got around to trying it tonight with one of my AGP mags. A couple of observations:

 

- I can't make it work with 10 rounds..I have to download to 9. Even then, I can barely get the pin in (using the same location as Rolling Thunder) and I have to jiggle it around to get it to line up.

 

- I tried putting the 10th round loose on top of the pin (there's enough friction that the round stays in place). The magazine seats easily on the closed bolt, but that top round won't feed reliably. In fact, it jams the bolt.

 

- With 9 rounds and the pin, it loads easily on the closed bolt.

 

I may still consider this for competition use -- it will probably cut 2-3 seconds off each mag change (I'll just have to get used to putting the pin in my dump pouch). The trade off of 9 rounds for the speed is probably worth it.

 

For HD, I store my S12 with the bolt locked back (I modified the safety select lever to act as a manual BHO) so loading on a closed bolt isn't as big an issue.

 

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear anybody else's experience or ideas on how to work this better.

 

Jim

 

Obviously it reduces the capacity of the mag as it takes away the space for the topmost shell. So I'd suggest using less ammo in the mag while storing it. I keep 5-6 rounds in my 8rd mag. Just to be easy on the spring. This is also in line with my feeling for mag springs in general. I usually do not stuff my Glock mags either when leaving them in "option 2" for a while.

 

I would not recommend putting a shell above the pin as it will cause jamming (the rim will catch the pin).

 

Leaving the bolt open seems like a better idea then. But then again - is the bolt forward spring made for prolonged storage under tension?

 

wrt competition - why don't you just attach the ring of the pin, to the mag, with a thin rubber band or something?

 

 

... Or just get enough pins so that you can sacrifice a few.

 

(Edit: some bad spelling fixed)

Edited November 11, 2007 by Rolling Thunder

[patriot 7,197]

Lowe's had some pins very much like this when I was there a little while ago.......

They has a ball in one end and a ring on the other.

[G O B 3,516]

How about uning a cotter key and a length of 550 cord?

[Navy87Guy 1]

Obviously it reduces the capacity of the mag as it takes away the space for the topmost shell. So I'd suggest using less ammo in the mag while storing it. I keep 5-6 rounds in my 8rd mag. Just to be easy on the spring. This is also in line with my feeling for mag springs in general. I usually do not stuff my Glock mags either when leaving them in "option 2" for a while.

That wasn't clear from your original post until I actually put my hands on the mag. I see it now. It looks like 9 will be the magic number.

 

I would not recommend putting a shell above the pin as it will cause jamming (the rim will catch the pin).

Yup, I proved that!

 

Leaving the bolt open seems like a better idea then. But then again - is the bolt forward spring made for prolonged storage under tension?

Springs don't care about their position - they get worn through cycling, not based on what position they are in. They won't "weaken" because they are left in one position for an extended time.

 

wrt competition - why don't you just attach the ring of the pin, to the mag, with a thin rubber band or something?

Yeah, I'll have to experiment with some ways to retain the pin that allow easy removal but don't get in the way, especially when trying to restore the mag in a pouch or dump pouch.

 

FWIW, I couldn't find any round pins at Lowe's. I bought a 3/16x 1 3/4" cotter pin and a 2-pack of 1 1/2" split key rings. I didn't want to make a huge hole in the mag, so I cut one "leg" of the cotter pin off about 1 1/2" back (The 1 3/4" length on the package refers to the "working" length. The actual pin itself is about 2 1/2" long with the eye at the end.) That lets the pin pass all the way through with no problem and still leaves enough of the lower leg to keep the eye in tact.

 

All in all, it's still a great (and cheap) idea!

 

Jim

[TronJohn 1]

For home defense, can't you keep one round chambered & then 9 in he mag? Still giving you the respected 10 rounds?

 

What mags have the best springs in them that are able to stay loaded for the longest period of time without wearing out the spring?

 

I have yet to hold a S12 or mags, but from my understanding of this thread, the pin is located far enough down the mag that you are able to pop the mag right into the receiver with the pin still in it? It doesn't get in the way?

[98_1LE 0]

Great idea!

[whatmanual 44]

+1

 

LOL... I have that as well now. I attached a red "REMOVE BEFORE FIGHT" flag to the pull pin.

I used to place it on the barrel of my AK or whatever, but the liked this idea so much I moved it to the pull pin. It's a much better spot for it.

 

 

(Its just a standard "remove before flight" flag seen on most aircraft. I stitched up the flag to remove the "L". Makes great range conversation).

 

 

 

~S

Edited November 12, 2007 by whatmanual

[Navy87Guy 1]

For home defense, can't you keep one round chambered & then 9 in he mag? Still giving you the respected 10 rounds?

 

You could do that. In my case, my storage set up is with the bolt locked open - so that wouldn't work too well.

 

Springs don't "wear out" from tension or compression - they fatigue due to cycling. It doesn't matter which way you store them...they retain their potential in either position. So there is no "best" when it comes to storing mags loaded.

 

Jim

[TronJohn 1]

What advantages are there to keep your bolt locked open?

 

Does that go for all types of gun mags?

 

I was always told about once a month or so, you should unload a full mag or shotgun chamber and let the spring sit for about a day, just to give it a bit of a rest. Therefore having your mags last longer?

[Navy87Guy 1]

What advantages are there to keep your bolt locked open?

 

Does that go for all types of gun mags?

 

I was always told about once a month or so, you should unload a full mag or shotgun chamber and let the spring sit for about a day, just to give it a bit of a rest. Therefore having your mags last longer?

 

For me, storing the gun with the action open is a function of my storage system (see attached pic).

 

The stories about springs wearing out are wives' tales. Springs don't get "tired" - they undergo stress from the cycling action. You actually do more harm than good by loading and unloading them -- it's the cycling that causes problems. Ask you local physicist or materials engineer - he'll tell you.

 

Jim

[Pointer 21]

I have had my Rem 870 with mag extension (8rd) fully loaded for at least 12 years without any spring fatigue..i only shoot it about twice a year to make sure it works and to change the batterys in the mounted flashlight.

[98_1LE 0]

I shot several AK mags that have been loaded full for 10-12 years recently. The ammo and mags all worked perfectly.

[RollingThunder 0]

For home defense, can't you keep one round chambered & then 9 in he mag? Still giving you the respected 10 rounds?

...

You can keep the gun loaded (a.k.a "option 1") but then you will still expose the front of the shells to pressure and thereby deforming them. At least the topmost shell. Deformed shells have a tendency to cause jamming in the S-12.

The pin solves this by putting the pressure on the brass at the rear end of the shell.

 

 

What mags have the best springs in them that are able to stay loaded for the longest period of time without wearing out the spring?

...

It seems, from this conversation, that the spring fatigue issue is some sort of urban legend. As I am not a subject matter expert I can only use common sense. I have actually never seen any reports from professional users (police etc.) that spring fatigue should be an issue caused by keeping mags loaded.

 

What Navy87Guy say makes sense. My own experience is from competition (mostly IPSC/USPSA) where you do quite a lot of cycling. The mags I own that show signs of wear are also the ones that are most prone to feeding problems (i.e. the mags that have been used the most). The ones that have been stored, on the other hand, seem fine and have worked flawlessly in the Glocks and S-12 respectively.

 

I have yet to hold a S12 or mags, but from my understanding of this thread, the pin is located far enough down the mag that you are able to pop the mag right into the receiver with the pin still in it? It doesn't get in the way?

...

 

If you look at the Picture "B" at the top of this thread you can see that the pin will not cause any difficulties in terms of inserting the mag. Ripping the pin out is easy as long as there is some sort of handle on it (like the ring on my pins).

 

 

I think the biggest risk with this whole setup is that the bozo factor makes you forget the pin in the mag. Therefore I strongly suggest that you pratice this until it becomes muscle memory. At least if you plan on using it for real case scenarios like HD/SD.

 

My procedure goes like this: Grab, Insert, Rip, Rack, Bang.

If you keep a loaded mag in the gun you can reduce it to: Grab, Rip, Rack, Bang.

 

Dry practice, with an empty mag, works fine in both of these procedures.

 

For pure HD you could attach a short wire from the wall to the pin so that it is ripped out when you grab the gun. That way you could in theory forget about its existance. I'm not sure if this would be wise as you could get tangled up and end up shooting yourself or something. Keeping it simple and safe is probably better than being over smart.

 

Safe storage goes without saying.

[GLOCKshooter 1]

You rock like Mr Spok! This is a GREAT mod. I believe my S12 has now transitioned from range gun to weapon. I never trusted deformed shells or an unloaded gun.

[AK-308 2]

Why not just keep your bolt back using the BHO catch, and keep your mag loaded and seated? When the time comes, just release and chamber, it's even faster.

[waltham_41 52]

I made one mag to take a pin, took all of 15 seconds. I have a piece of white elastic string tied around the mag and to the ring, partly to not loose the ring, and partly as a reminder that there is something that needs to be done before firing.

 

Personally, the reason I do not just put in a loaded mag with the bolt locked back is that I do not like to keep my weapons with the bolts locked back. Just a personal preference, and this mod fits the bill for me.

[Navy87Guy 1]

Why not just keep your bolt back using the BHO catch, and keep your mag loaded and seated? When the time comes, just release and chamber, it's even faster.

 

 

If you're just using the standard (internal) BHO, just be sure the gun isn't in a position to get bumped. It doesn't take much motion sometimes for that bolt to ride home.

 

If you notch the safety selector to function as an external BHO, it's no big deal.

 

Like I said, in my case I secure my gun through the open breech and the magwell, so it's not an option for me.

 

Jim

[mike12345 18]

good idea, im just not willing to drill hole in the factory mags.

 

I'd rather:

 

1 leave the magazine out of the gun.

2 bolt locked back with a mag in.

 

 

page 2 is mine!

Edited November 23, 2007 by mike123456