Leaving shells in the mag for long time

[Bvamp 604]

with touching ANY gun, as a collector/investor, I wont allow a single tool or adjustment that I dont make myself to my guns, but this is a good solution, either way, in my opinion.

 

...but loading with an open bolt, even better. see my avatar. altering stock gun == BAD for investor.

 

itd be like telling me to rebarrel the gun in my avatar to 40 caliber, when its a 41. ILL MAKE THE MOULD THANKS, and I DONT need you telling me how to do it, if you dont have a mould already.....

 

 

nowe an AKM? hell yeh I would adjust a front site with a hammer!

Edited November 23, 2007 by Bvamp

[waltham_41 52]

good idea, im just not willing to drill hole in the factory mags.

 

I'd rather:

 

1 leave the magazine out of the gun.

2 bolt locked back with a mag in.

 

 

page 2 is mine!

 

I had to think about it a bit before deciding to drill the holes in the mag, but once done, you cannot see them unless you are looking for them, and they in no way hurt the mag. If you ever changed your mind, a simple dab of black silicone would seal the holes if they bothered you.

 

The only thing I have done to change my S12 that cannot be changed back is to grind off the front factory sight, I have kept all of my original parts and suppose I could come up with something as far as that front sight if I wanted to go back to original.

 

In the meantime, I like the purpose of the hole and pin. Its like "Pull pin, make dangerous"

[gvidon 0]

good idea, im just not willing to drill hole in the factory mags.

 

I'd rather:

 

1 leave the magazine out of the gun.

2 bolt locked back with a mag in.

 

 

page 2 is mine!

 

I had to think about it a bit before deciding to drill the holes in the mag, but once done, you cannot see them unless you are looking for them, and they in no way hurt the mag. If you ever changed your mind, a simple dab of black silicone would seal the holes if they bothered you.

 

The only thing I have done to change my S12 that cannot be changed back is to grind off the front factory sight, I have kept all of my original parts and suppose I could come up with something as far as that front sight if I wanted to go back to original.

 

In the meantime, I like the purpose of the hole and pin. Its like "Pull pin, make dangerous"

 

 

Great idea, thanks for sharing.

 

Two quick questions:

 

1) Has anyone actually had a jam from a round deformed from storage in a full mag under closed bolt?

 

This has been a concern of mine and until now I've been without a possible solution, but just as well I haven't read of the problem actually taking place.

 

2) Brass is fairly soft. What are your thoughts on the possibility of the pin notching it or causing it to go out of round if stored long term?

 

The force may be far from enough to cause this though without as much metal working knowledge as you guys I thought I would raise the question.

 

Thanks again.

[SaigaNoobie 66]

One in the chamber, pin in the mag, 9 in the mag.

 

Pickup, pin-out, bangx10.

[waltham_41 52]

good idea, im just not willing to drill hole in the factory mags.

 

I'd rather:

 

1 leave the magazine out of the gun.

2 bolt locked back with a mag in.

 

 

page 2 is mine!

 

I had to think about it a bit before deciding to drill the holes in the mag, but once done, you cannot see them unless you are looking for them, and they in no way hurt the mag. If you ever changed your mind, a simple dab of black silicone would seal the holes if they bothered you.

 

The only thing I have done to change my S12 that cannot be changed back is to grind off the front factory sight, I have kept all of my original parts and suppose I could come up with something as far as that front sight if I wanted to go back to original.

 

In the meantime, I like the purpose of the hole and pin. Its like "Pull pin, make dangerous"

 

 

Great idea, thanks for sharing.

 

Two quick questions:

 

1) Has anyone actually had a jam from a round deformed from storage in a full mag under closed bolt?

 

This has been a concern of mine and until now I've been without a possible solution, but just as well I haven't read of the problem actually taking place.

 

2) Brass is fairly soft. What are your thoughts on the possibility of the pin notching it or causing it to go out of round if stored long term?

 

The force may be far from enough to cause this though without as much metal working knowledge as you guys I thought I would raise the question.

 

Thanks again.

 

 

The only failure to feed I have had in my shotgun so far has been when I had a fully loaded mag that I left overnight and tried to cycle the first one in the chamber and it jammed. I ejected it and looked at it and it had started flattening out enough that it would not easily fit into the barrel without my making it round again. It was a 3 inch 00 buck shell.

 

So far, I have had my mag drilled for about a week give or take and have not seen a dent of any sort on the medium brass or low aluminum shells that I have "tested"

 

Hope this helps

[shaneman153a 39]

After fumbling mag changes against a closed bolt this weekend at the Suarez Shotgun Fighting Class, this could be the solution to much more than just a deformed shell problem. This ought to make it exceedingly easy to load a magazine onto the closed bolt -- eliminating half the juggling it takes to reload a Saiga.

 

Now where did I put that fire extinguisher....

 

Jim

 

How did you like that course? Was it too basic? Were they AK friendly? They seem to be on warrior talk.

[Cryptkeeper 0]

Here is a solution for leaving regular shells in the mag for a long time without damaging them.

 

It has been suggested to use brass shells or slug to avoid deformation of the ammo hence cause feeding problems. Another way is to modify the mag so that the shells are not pushed against the closed bolt until it is time (when the non-invited visitor arrives...). The idea is to avoid prolonged pressure on the front of the shell.

 

This modification cost about one dollar and can be made with a drill in less than two minutes.

 

The modification is ambidextrous and uses a simple pin from a used fire extinguisher.

 

In this case the pin has a diameter of 3 mm. (0.118 inch). I drilled a hole with the exact same dimension. This is to cause enough friction to keep the pin seated regardless of how I handle the gun itelf before it is time for some action.

 

When the mag is loaded and inserted into the gun all I need to do is to rip the pin out and rack the bolt. The shells immediatley pops up to the top of the mag when the pin is pulled.

 

Picture A shows the mag and the pin in various angles. Picture B shows modified mag inserted into the gun with the pin. Please note that the gun itself is somewhat modified on these pictures (safety lever and mag release are extended).

 

 

 

DISCLAIMER:

I take no resposability for whatever you do to your gun, yourself or anobody else (on either side of the gun). Consider this as a documentation on what I did to my own gun. It may or may not work as intendend on your gun.

 

Also note that this is not a safety device in that it does not prevent you from actually loading the gun. A round can be chambered even with the pin inserted. The pin simply avoind deformation of the top round in the mag.

 

 

BRILLIANT simply BRILLIANT !!

[kmoore 3]

just checking into this thread.

 

So, do we know that 9+1 condition deforms shells. I only ask as I think most have had problems with the 10+1 or 10+0 condition. Don't know how many have had issues with a 9 round mag.

 

Springs will take a little set when left compressed. Ask anyone who has struggled to load a pistol mag, but leaves it fully loaded for a week and then comes back to find it easier to load. But, this isn't "wearing the spring out" as it doesn't get progressively easier to load over time.

 

Jim, be careful with leaving it locked back. I've cut a notch too, and for me it isn't too hard to bump it forward. Might want to test how much it takes to make it release.

[Reverendfranz 160]

Definitely an ingenious solution.

 

The first thing that came to my mind was leaving a home defense gun loaded against a rack, bed or wall and securing the pin in place. Pick up the gun, the pin is already disengaged, and depending on the rest of your procedure, you are either a safety or chambered round away from golden.

 

kudos.

[THE_HUNTER 2]

How is the mag spring life going in all out there that leave the AGP mags fully loaded?Remember to make sure you wipe the springs down once in awhile.I actually had a light coat of rust when I checked!

[Navy87Guy 1]

After fumbling mag changes against a closed bolt this weekend at the Suarez Shotgun Fighting Class, this could be the solution to much more than just a deformed shell problem. This ought to make it exceedingly easy to load a magazine onto the closed bolt -- eliminating half the juggling it takes to reload a Saiga.

 

Now where did I put that fire extinguisher....

 

Jim

 

How did you like that course? Was it too basic? Were they AK friendly? They seem to be on warrior talk.

 

The course was good - more "advanced" than the Rifle Fighting Course. The Suarez crowd is definitely AK friendly and Gabe recently proclaimed the S12 as the best fighting shotgun in production.!

 

 

Jim, be careful with leaving it locked back. I've cut a notch too, and for me it isn't too hard to bump it forward. Might want to test how much it takes to make it release.

 

Thanks for the heads-up. I've actually been playing with it for a while now and while it's not likely to get bumped out of position, I don't have any problem releasing it with just my thumb. It might be a different story for my better half, but she hasn't moved up to shotgun operation....yet!

 

Jim

[aresv 49]

The stories about springs wearing out are wives' tales. Springs don't get "tired" - they undergo stress from the cycling action. You actually do more harm than good by loading and unloading them -- it's the cycling that causes problems. Ask you local physicist or materials engineer - he'll tell you.

 

+1000

 

Was reading this thread and loved the pin idea to keep shells from deforming, then I read this gem of wisdom. Not that anyone's asking, but I'm tellin' ya, Navy87Guy is right.

 

The main reason people warn against storing springs in a compressed state isn't because it hurts the springs, it's because compressed springs store energy. In some situations a spring suddenly coming unsprung in your face will cause you to have a bad day. Rather than making up special rules for everything, a safe rule of thumb is to store springs in their relaxed state because it's safer for humans; the springs don't care.

[Granola 0]

What advantages are there to keep your bolt locked open?

 

Does that go for all types of gun mags?

 

I was always told about once a month or so, you should unload a full mag or shotgun chamber and let the spring sit for about a day, just to give it a bit of a rest. Therefore having your mags last longer?

 

For me, storing the gun with the action open is a function of my storage system (see attached pic).

 

The stories about springs wearing out are wives' tales. Springs don't get "tired" - they undergo stress from the cycling action. You actually do more harm than good by loading and unloading them -- it's the cycling that causes problems. Ask you local physicist or materials engineer - he'll tell you.

 

Jim

 

Nice. How did you get the rail on for the light?

[sKott 26]

I completed this mod tonight with an old extra 5 rounder and $1.29 at ACE Hardware.

Excellent Idea - works flawlessly.

 

 

 

 

I think I will have this part hard chrome plated when I get the bolt carrier done.

 

Again, great idea. Thanks for posting.

[sadams4 1]

Regarding spring wear being an urban legend or wives tail... Maybe so this day and age, but I have seen and experienced it 2 times in my life. The first time was guard duty as a Marine on Okinawa. We had a 30 rnd mag topped off for the M16. This mag had been loaded for over 3 years. I was on duty one night when a boot 2nd Lt was the OOD (Officer of the Day) and was inspecting my post. He had me unload my mag and inspect it.

 

Well, I got the first 2 rounds out, then had to tip it upside down to finish unloading the remaining rounds. When I broke down the mag the spring was completely compressed. You could stretch it out and it would not retract, you could press on it and it would not expand. I also saw another anomaly. The ammunition had become worthless. Bullets had become loose in the brass, some had compacted back in the brass. Things changed on post after that.

 

Some of the factors that could have contributed to the case are Okinawa's high temperature and humidity, but the main factor was and is the poor quality springs of military mags (at least back then). There was an is a reason the military SOP for mags is 28 rounds and not the full 30.

 

The other time I saw it was a Barretta mag, also while in the service. Very similar circumstance and same end result.

 

To this day I short load many of my mags, just to be safe. There have been mags that I have had topped off and stored for years, but they all were H&K mags.... and I think most people know the difference in quality of H&K vs. Colt or Government issue (made by the lowest bidder) equioment.

 

Anyway, for me at least it is no myth, but fact that this does happen, been there, done that, seen it and held it twice.

[Delta 5.56 0]

Regarding spring wear being an urban legend or wives tail... Maybe so this day and age, but I have seen and experienced it 2 times in my life. The first time was guard duty as a Marine on Okinawa. We had a 30 rnd mag topped off for the M16. This mag had been loaded for over 3 years. I was on duty one night when a boot 2nd Lt was the OOD (Officer of the Day) and was inspecting my post. He had me unload my mag and inspect it.

 

Well, I got the first 2 rounds out, then had to tip it upside down to finish unloading the remaining rounds. When I broke down the mag the spring was completely compressed. You could stretch it out and it would not retract, you could press on it and it would not expand. I also saw another anomaly. The ammunition had become worthless. Bullets had become loose in the brass, some had compacted back in the brass. Things changed on post after that.

 

Some of the factors that could have contributed to the case are Okinawa's high temperature and humidity, but the main factor was and is the poor quality springs of military mags (at least back then). There was an is a reason the military SOP for mags is 28 rounds and not the full 30.

 

The other time I saw it was a Barretta mag, also while in the service. Very similar circumstance and same end result.

 

To this day I short load many of my mags, just to be safe. There have been mags that I have had topped off and stored for years, but they all were H&K mags.... and I think most people know the difference in quality of H&K vs. Colt or Government issue (made by the lowest bidder) equioment.

 

Anyway, for me at least it is no myth, but fact that this does happen, been there, done that, seen it and held it twice.

 

 

Thank goodness for a boot 2nd Lt for once eh!

[Levi 0]

i thought the shells only got squashed if you have the mag in the gun

 

couldn't you just leave the mag out?

[TronJohn 1]

Just bumping this for everyone... I'm getting ready to do this mod myself.

 

I can find these pins at lowes or home depot pretty easy?

[GerryV 14]

One in the chamber, pin in the mag, 9 in the mag.

 

Pickup, pin-out, bangx10.

 

 

I was thinking the same thing.

 

 

To the OP, what a simply brilliant idea, thanks for sharing.

[t165 30]

I can just envision those with military training waking up in the middle of the night...grabbing the magazine...pulling the pin and lobing the magazine at the intruder while diving behind the bed for cover. The training drilled into you seems to stay. I was good friends with an older black man who would hit then ground at real loud noises. He was in-laws with Jackie Robinson. His daughter married Jackie's son. They are divorced now.

Edited March 11, 2009 by t165

[DMGunn 1]

Great Idea! As long as under the pressure of a burglary you don't go into some kind of military flash back, pull the pin, scream, "They are in the wire!" and throw your loaded shotgun at them...

 

Sorry, just had to bring this back up............I laughed out loud for real.

[corbin 621]

Pretty cool idea.

I'm messing around with another option, but need more ammo before I can make sure it's reliable enough....

 

A company called Centurion makes a 2" 00 Buck round that has 6 pekkets traveling at 1250 FPS. So far, they've cycled in my Saiga, but I've only been placing them at the top of the magazine instead of loading up the whole mag (I did that once too). Since the top round is shorter, it doesn't press on the bolt as much. Also, it doesn't take much more effort to load a mag with a closed bolt than it does with an empty mag. Not sure how long term storage would be.

 

Granted, you'd be mixing ammo strengths going this route, but it's an option I wanted to share. Here's a website that carries the stuff. I've got an order in through another place and should be getting it soon hopefully. I'll let folks know how it works (in a new thread so not as to hijack this one).

 

 

Corbin

[22_Shooter 1,560]

Cool idea.

 

But for me, my safe's not big enough to for an S12 with a mag inserted .

[Fallschirmjager 0]

I can just envision those with military training waking up in the middle of the night...grabbing the magazine...pulling the pin and lobing the magazine at the intruder while diving behind the bed for cover. The training drilled into you seems to stay. I was good friends with an older black man who would hit then ground at real loud noises. He was in-laws with Jackie Robinson. His daughter married Jackie's son. They are divorced now.

 

I had a friend of mine, who was just back from a tour in The Nam, bail out of my car when it backfired! Fortunately I was only going about 5mph when I backed off the gas peddle and it backfired. He was with SOG and his training was well drilled in and he was back in The World for only a couple weeks.

[aresv 49]

I can just envision those with military training waking up in the middle of the night...grabbing the magazine...pulling the pin and lobing the magazine at the intruder while diving behind the bed for cover. The training drilled into you seems to stay. I was good friends with an older black man who would hit then ground at real loud noises. He was in-laws with Jackie Robinson. His daughter married Jackie's son. They are divorced now.

 

LOL. "mag out!"

[azzsezfl 0]

Great Idea! As long as under the pressure of a burglary you don't go into some kind of military flash back, pull the pin, scream, "They are in the wire!" and throw your loaded shotgun at them...

 

 

That is the purpose of training................................