kellysguy 1 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I'm really dissapointed in the design of the gas system on this thing. After only 60 rounds, the piston and bore were HORRIBLE !!!! I've never seen that much crap in one of my gas opperated shotguns EVER, much less after 60 rounds. I don't understand why after 60 years of a proven design, why a manufacturer would deviate from it and make it worse. Part of what makes an AK is the gas system. While it's "close", it's not the same and the weak link in Saigas IMO. I've NEVER had ANYWHERE CLOSE to the amount of crap in an AK after HUNDREDS of rounds. Yes I know it's different powder but still. Maybe more or bigger exhast ports would help. It seems it's just a matter of time before it won't cycle anylonger as you have more crap comming in then going out. Yes, I shot cheap ammo. Remmington "heavy dove" and 5 rounds of Winchester vaule pack slug and buck. I just don't get it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oldandslow 3 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Which gas operated shotgun will run without cleaning? I have shot my Saiga for 300 rounds without cleaning. But I only do this when practicing. I always clean it before any shotgun match. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kellysguy 1 Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I never said without cleaning and a Winchester 1400MKII will go a good while. Problem is in the trigger group, not the gas system on that one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kellysguy 1 Posted March 13, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 Oh, which one? It should be an AK, but apparently not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fobmagi 0 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I've ran 250 rounds in one sitting and probably 500 rounds w/o cleaning the gas tube.... I also shoot Remington heavy dove. I've never had a problem. Bigger/more gas ports would just result in more crap in your gas system. reasons for more crap: 1. more crap in a shotgun shell than a rifle round(powder, wadding) 2. Different powder burns differently... flake vs extruded... in my experience flake leaves more crap behind in general 3. Longer barrels and lower muzzle velocity = more time under pressure, more time for shit to wander into gas tube About the only serious change from ak to saiga shotty is the addition of the little steel cylinder that improves the seal and reduces the shit that gets back into the receiver... I have a hard time seeing this as a bad thing, I much prefer cleaning a gas tube to cleaning shit out of springs and trigger groups. My saiga has been crazy reliable and god for bid I'm ever in a firefight that requires me to shoot over 500 rounds of shotgun shells without a break long enough to swab out the gas system.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vultite 57 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 well, run a couple hundred rounds through it and see where you end up, its a saiga, i doubt it'll jam, but if it does let us know Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 (edited) I'm one to clean mine pretty much every time I shoot it. For those who run through a crap load of ammo (ie: 3 gunners, ect), might there be a mod we can do to the piston to act as a carbon scraper of sorts? As long as the very short travel of the piston (puck) occures, all the crap in front of it won't be much of an issue. Im not sure how effective a steel ball would be in place of the puck, the Galil micro has a very tapered piston without much sealing surface, but in the automotive world, Multec style fuel injectors use a steel ball rather than a needle and seat. The idea behind it is that the ball rotates and is rather self cleaning. Could that be applied to the S12? Edited March 13, 2008 by 6500rpm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I've got somewhere around 250-300 rounds through mine, never cleaned the gas system. About half of those were smoky-ass Wolf 00 shells. Checked the gas tube last time out and still didn't think it required cleaning. Have yet to have a failure either. So far it has displayed the same reliability and functionality as my 7.62 AK. Thats just me though, sorry to hear you're having problems. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
NY-proletariat 0 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 When Saiga's first came out years ago , put over 1000 rds through mine as a torture test to see if the guns were worth the money. It never missed a lick with all the different kinds of rounds(cheapy shot,buck and slugs) I put through it. The only bad thing was I shot up all of my shotgun ammo and had none left!! I finally sold the gun to someone else because at the time the mags were scarce or nonexistant and EAA(at the time) stopped importing the guns. I never even cleaned it before I sold it because the guy wanted it right then! I saw him later on and asked him how he liked his gun. He said it worked fine,but it seemd slower than his other shotguns!!! He said he never cleaned it either!!! I finally took the plunge again the other day and bought two more (12's) because of this. Now when I get lots of extra mags and lots(and lots) of ammo , I'll be happy(for a little while anyways!! Until the next girl comes along and smiles at me!!). Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted March 13, 2008 Report Share Posted March 13, 2008 I put about 250 rds of various loads through my TROMIX12 before cleaning, and the puck was a bit tough to get past the ring of crud built up in the tube. It never stopped working, even filthy. The loads were Estate Heavy Field, Fed LE buck Fed Red Recoil slugs, Black something or other 3" slugs, Win bulk pack slugs, Wolf 2 3/4" buck (NICE, NASTY load, and CHEAP!!), Rem Mag 4s, some old Fed Heavy Field, and a few handloaded 3" max dram slug loads. This thing is a CANNON! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted March 14, 2008 Report Share Posted March 14, 2008 Thanks to the $16 100 packs at walmart, mine has seen 1,000 or so rounds. I took the gas piston out at 500 or so and it was black, but it still moved freely. I bet if I take it apart now, a few little black chunks will fall out and I'll just shrug and put it back in. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
kellysguy 1 Posted March 16, 2008 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Thanks guys, great info. As far as the ports, I meant Exhast ports out of the cylinder, not where it feeds in from the barrel, but where it blows out of the tube. I figure more hole will allow more stuff to blow out. I really don't care if more crap gets blown into my handguard. I'd much rather have it there then in the cylider in front of the puck. I was thinking of maybe machining a concave face into the puck to give crap a place to live thus extending cleaning intervals. It hasn't failed yet, I was just really suprised to see how much was there. If I can fire more rounds then I can carry before service is needed, thats fine with me. Thanks again, exactly what I was after. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 (edited) The Saiga-12 aroused my suspicions as to being the BEST shotgun on mother Earth. So when I bought mine, I abused it, just to be sure. It malfunctioned due to non-cleaning on approximately the 1500th round. Roughly. I swear to this. edit - I beat the hell out of my 01 gun, and I tell you what, Ive dropped every other shotgun for this one. This is the gun that defends my home. Edited March 16, 2008 by Bvamp Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 There's really no way for the crap to get back behind the puck into the gas tube where the common AK piston resides. All the crap is going to be in front of piston (puck). There is a hole in the back of the gas block on the left side, but I don't think it's in a position where it can be used to help anything. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scoutjoe 276 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 I just cleaned my gas system for the first time in 3 years. I'd like to say that I shoot my s-12 regularly and its always been the cheapest stuff that will cycle. An estimation would be around 3-4K of rounds course i had to pound out the "puck" to clean it and the whole back groove on the puck was full of carbon, gun still ran like a champ Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shaneman153a 39 Posted March 16, 2008 Report Share Posted March 16, 2008 Thanks guys, great info. As far as the ports, I meant Exhast ports out of the cylinder, not where it feeds in from the barrel, but where it blows out of the tube. I figure more hole will allow more stuff to blow out. I really don't care if more crap gets blown into my handguard. I'd much rather have it there then in the cylider in front of the puck. I was thinking of maybe machining a concave face into the puck to give crap a place to live thus extending cleaning intervals. It hasn't failed yet, I was just really suprised to see how much was there. If I can fire more rounds then I can carry before service is needed, thats fine with me. Thanks again, exactly what I was after. If there hasn't been a malfunction.......what's the problem? I probably clean my gas system about every third outing (approx 300 rds). Not out of necessity, just because I feel she needs some lovin'. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacknast76 2 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I have a 4 port system and after 100 mixed rnds(7, 4, OO, slug, various brands) there was a bunch of grey thin flakes in the gas port. It still moved fine. Could here it rattle when I shoke it up and down. Is 1500 rnds the maximum "torture test" that has been done? Any info from RAAC, MD arms or Tromix on this? PS. anyone ever toss their S12 in a mud puddle, or a snowy mud puddle even or a sandy mud puddle and then shot it? How many rounds after that is the question. ( I'm thinking WWII eastern front dirty) Wondering if she's as "dirty" as say an sks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I still haven't cleaned my gas system. I've reloaded 700 rounds of buckshot, and had to fire a round of birdshot to get each of those hulls as well. This is since that 500 round mark. I have several thousand hulls in my cellar, all shot by myself. I don't pick up all my hulls, so who knows how many I've shot. And again, I still haven't cleaned my gas system. I can only get my Saiga to jam if I want it to. My Saiga-410 had like a 1/4" (maybe 1/8", I forget) thick wafer of plastic in the gas system that I had to break to remove. Although it could have stayed there considering the gun was still 100% reliable. I put in a new puck so I could use US made magazines legally under 922r. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 I have about 500 rounds of various shotgun shells through my S12, from cheap 100 pack stuff, buckshot, slugs.. what ever I can get ahold of and I only cleaned and lubed the gun when I first bought it. The only issues I have had were after about 200 rounds of the cheap walmart value pack stuff, the gun would shoot and cycle but I would get a stove pipe once in a while, seemed that the rim would get stuck on the extractor, I would just need to rip the empty out and continue going. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
topmaul 42 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 300 is a good rule of thumb. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aessu 1 Posted January 7, 2009 Report Share Posted January 7, 2009 After breaking in and cleaning, I've shot 400+ birdshot loads on mine. Doesn't seem to reguire any cleaning yet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gibbles 23 Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I put another 200 rounds through mine as fast as I could pull the trigger and now my gas tube came a little loose. As long as the dust cover stays on it should be ok though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 I put hundreds of rounds of Sellier Bellot 00 Buck though mine when I first got it back in 2002 because I had bought 4000rds and then found out it ran like crap in my Benelli so I used it as blasting ammo while I was still deciding if the Saiga was the "Real Deal".The wads would foul the tappet piston with plastic after about 400rds and carbon after about 1000 but that was pretty crappy ammo.I think brass cases,fiber wads and cleaner powder like I am trying to get together now would do waaaaaay better but I haven't got enough of it to test my theory in a single sitting. The weirdest thing ever was finding out that the Russian copper washed stuff wouldn't fit in my Saiga at all because it was cheap and had all of the features I was hoping to incorporate and it's made in Russia like the Saiga but it won't work in the Saiga,LOL Is there something you guys have tried that makes the carbon not stick to the tappet piston so badly? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Blam 4 Posted January 9, 2009 Report Share Posted January 9, 2009 (edited) PS. anyone ever toss their S12 in a mud puddle, or a snowy mud puddle even or a sandy mud puddle and then shot it? How many rounds after that is the question. ( I'm thinking WWII eastern front dirty) Interesting question, and if you or someone else throws their S12 into the mud and sand.... do me a favor and take pictures. It would be nice to know. Throwing the Saiga into the mud would not hurt it, but it would sure be hard to do! I dont think I could do it. It would be easier to throw my own wife into the mud... er... I mean I am not qualified to perform such an experiment myself. Edited January 9, 2009 by Blam Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jacknast76 2 Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 PS. anyone ever toss their S12 in a mud puddle, or a snowy mud puddle even or a sandy mud puddle and then shot it? How many rounds after that is the question. ( I'm thinking WWII eastern front dirty) Interesting question, and if you or someone else throws their S12 into the mud and sand.... do me a favor and take pictures. It would be nice to know. Throwing the Saiga into the mud would not hurt it, but it would sure be hard to do! I dont think I could do it. It would be easier to throw my own wife into the mud... er... I mean I am not qualified to perform such an experiment myself. Yes hard to do and I don'tthink I could do it either. I was hoping thatmaybe the manufacturer mayhavedone it and someone knewof it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted January 10, 2009 Report Share Posted January 10, 2009 Izhmash used to have a video of torture testing the Saiga 12 in laboratory conditions.I haven't seen it in a few years though. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.