Saiga .223 versus AR-15

[dobravery 49]

Okay, funny occurance my last trip to the range.

I'm shooting my Saiga 16" .223 and the guy next to me was shooting an AR.

It was each our first outing with our respective rifles.

 

He starts asking me about getting a real AK. So I respond well my Yugo M70 there looks like an AK but has US parts. This Saiga I'm holding is all made in Russia, but may not look like what you expect. He seems really curious about AK's (he's only shot pistols and shotguns, first day with AR). I offer him to shoot the Saiga. He shoots away. He offers me to shoot his new Bushmaster AR carbine. Now I'll admit although I've shot SKS's, Norinco Hunters/AK's, and those mentioned above, I've never shot an AR . He makes sure it's set to go, I check as well.

 

I aim and <click>. I noticed he was messing with the AR earlier--never-the-less he starts checking it again. Aim and <click>. He pulls out the Mag checks the rounds and puts it back in. I fire one, <click>, charger, fire two. I couldn't help but notice when he pulled the mag out that the two visible rounds were one Wolf and one brass.

 

Now I've heard all the bickering back and forth about AR's jamming and Wolf ammo. I'm sure much of it is overblown. I know AR's are fine rifles and the good ones can be very accurate. I just get a kick out of the fact that my first (attempted) shot with an AR fit the cliche that's constantly debated.

 

He was new with the AR so maybe it was him. I told him that Wolf (especially the older stuff) can give an AR headaches. Shooting brass after Wolf can cause jams as well. Who knows. . .

 

The lousy part is that I was so distracted by the jams, that I never really evaluated the feel of shooting an AR.

[DS12 1]

Obviously just a crappy build and not broken in. None of my ARs jam.

[Bayoupiper 738]

Neither do any ARs I own.

 

Oh wait!

 

I don't own any ARs!

[DS12 1]

lol. I know most AK owners are biased towards their AKs and same with AR owners, I don't care I own and love all platforms.

 

The guys was a carbine so probably wasn't setup with the right buffer or something quirky, midlength and riflelength gas systems are way more reliable than the carbine.

[BullShark012 1]

lol. I know most AK owners are biased towards their AKs and same with AR owners, I don't care I own and love all platforms.

 

The guys was a carbine so probably wasn't setup with the right buffer or something quirky, midlength and riflelength gas systems are way more reliable than the carbine.

 

Hmmm, LOL...Me too. first time I shot my new 223 Saiga...I was next to a guy w/ an AR...granted he may have be a noob on the rifle (he didn't speak much English - was form Germany, I'm 1/2 German BTW)...Anyway...The Saiga .223 Way outdid the results of his AR @ 50 yds....so, of course it was Fun to Watch! He was curious about the Saiga....AR's are great....but all AK's aren't Shit!

 

I do like to 'Break' Mine In by cleaning w/ a boresnake after each round for first Few, then slowly taper off on the cleaning (5, 10) until 75 rds.

[Bad Bob 0]

I aim and <click>.

Sounds like a magazine problem. IIRC, the ARs were intended to use 'throw-away' mags (sorta like the Chevy Vegas & their 'throw-away' aluminum-block engines, if anyone here - besides me - is old enough to remember'em ;>).

 

Hey, anyone besides me remember that the original ArmaLite mag was, NOT 20 rounds, and NOT 30 rounds, but 25 rounds? (Straight like the original 20 round mags, but a bit longer, if I remember the photos right.) How about that?

 

FWIW, I still prefer the original 20-rd mil-spec mags.

 

Bottom line, the mags have always been an issue...

[DS12 1]

That's true, there are a shit ton of cheap mags that will make the AR FTF.

 

I use PMAGs and LOVE them, they are right up there with HK mags and at 1/4th the cost.

[Bean.223 365]

Agreed about the mags. My Saiga had some nasty jams thanks to a bad mag.

[WardenWolf 6]

Regarding Wolf ammo, I put some of this stuff through my Romak-3 (haven't shot my Saiga yet), and my friend put some through his SKS. We both agree: they cut it with black powder. This stuff produces the nastiest, most disgusting black fouling we've ever seen, even compared to low-grade surplus. I saw huge granules of powder come out of my gun. An AR-15 would freaking CHOKE on the stuff. It shoots great, no doubt about that, but it makes a colossal mess. Long story short, I'll be putting surplus ammo through my Romak unless I really need the accuracy, and Sellier and Bellot or Winchester through my Saiga.

[dobravery 49]

Yeah, he was a total Noob. He was kind of hesitant with everything he did with it. He admitted that he was a "pistol guy," and that this was his first (centerfire) rifle. Although I hadn't fired an AR before, I know how to operate one. I just didn't want to "takeover" his rifle. Especially if something was messed up.

 

It was a brand new Bushmaster M4 style. I think it was a mag issue as you all say. It failed to feed, not failed to extract.

 

I know the AR is a great platform. This guy was just shooting sub MOA when it came to hitting every cliche and stereotype in the book.

[WardenWolf 6]

The AR concept is great, but the lack of a gas piston is its undoing. Some of the variants that actually have a gas piston are very good, reliable rifles.

[gunboy69 50]

I've got a DPMS Bull 20,and it says in the manual not to shoot wolf ammo through it. The manual says when the gun gets hot the laquer they're coated with melts into the chamber,and good luck cleaning it off once it cools. This obviously was not the problem with this guys gun,since you hardly fired it.

 

My friends Bushmaster carbine with a 11.5 inch barrel and 5.5 inch FH eats it all day without a hiccup. Last weekend we had a bunch of the wolf ammo,and mine would'nt feed it, neither would the two Colt ARs we had out there,but once again Bushmaster ate it up. I use Bushmaster mags,and have never had a problem

with brass,and it is a straight up tack driver. I know the Bushmaster is sloppy,cause he uses the accu-wedge and mine would'nt even close up with it in there.

 

I say for hunting dogs its my AR,and when SHTF its the AK style weapons.

[WardenWolf 6]

This is not true anymore. Wolf ammo is now polymer coated, not lacquered. It used to be true, but no longer.

[loki0629 55]

The rounds may not have been seated properly in the mag before he inserted it. I used to tap the mag against my helmet to get them flush.

[gunboy69 50]

This is not true anymore. Wolf ammo is now polymer coated, not lacquered. It used to be true, but no longer.

 

Wonder if the polymer does the same thing? Or if thats why they switched? I'm all for shooting cheap ammo if it cycles. Not that any .223 is very cheap these days. I know that silver cased shit doesnt cycle in anything I own. I've got a thousand rounds 762x39 that wont cycle in my yugo sks,but on a brighter note its an excuse to buy qa CZ-527 carbine to shoot it up with.

[superA 289]

This is not true anymore. Wolf ammo is now polymer coated, not lacquered. It used to be true, but no longer.

 

Wonder if the polymer does the same thing? Or if thats why they switched? I'm all for shooting cheap ammo if it cycles. Not that any .223 is very cheap these days. I know that silver cased shit doesnt cycle in anything I own. I've got a thousand rounds 762x39 that wont cycle in my yugo sks,but on a brighter note its an excuse to buy qa CZ-527 carbine to shoot it up with.

 

 

 

 

 

I have a bushmaster dissipator. I have never had one malfunction. I have shot many hundreds of rounds of wolf through it. The 62 grain hollow points give me better accuracy than Federal M193. If an AR will not function with Wolf it's the rifle or the mags, not the ammo. Not saying there can't be a bad batch of ammo from time to time. Just keep the AR wet and it will run on almost anything you feed it. Even Brown Bear or Silver Bear.

[mstranglr 9]

My bushy m-forgery is a jam-omatic with cheap ammo,even with good pmags. My 20" varmiter build is also a bit picky. My other 6 AR builds shoot great with just about everything, although Wolf black box is a NASTY clean-up job at the end of the day.

 

As for bench rest accuaracy, my ARs will outshoot my .223 saigas any day - by a large margin!

 

The only problems I have had with the .223 Saigas are all magazine related. I have 3 .223 saigas now, and some will not shoot magazines that run great in other rifles. My 7.62x39s do not have this problem - if it works in one, it works in all of them (accept the WASR).

[Ogar Lumox 1]

This is slightly off topic but a question about the ammo with teh lacquer coating, how does that ammo do in the AK's? No I've never shot any coated ammo yet. The AK's digest that stuff don't they, I mean some of the places that deploy AK's must use that kind of ammo for thier soldiers?

[6500rpm 670]

Most of the .223 cheap ammo stories I hear about are extraction issues from lacquer building up in the chamber-the tighter the chamber, the more prevalent the problem. AK's are built on slop which is part of the reason they're so dependable under shit conditions. To make matters worse, the .223 compared to the x39 round has very little taper in the case.

[GPalmer 1]

It isn't that uncommon for an AR to have a few FTF when it's new that go away when the rifle breaks in.

[Falcon66 1]

I wonder if he cleaned and oiled that Bushy before running it. Sounds like a dry weapon or possibly a shitty magazine. Either the bolt wasn't coming back far enough to pick up the next round, or he was using a beat up old magazine, but I'm betting it was a dry weapon. If you dont clean and oil the buffer tube and bolt before using the first time, that is exactly what will happen. As to comparing the two, you will never ever ever get the accuracy of an AR from a Saiga. However, the Saiga has it all over the AR in reliability. Now, if you keep your AR clean, it won't let you down, and if needed should be able to a go hundreds of rounds with out cleaning.

 

As to Wolf, I will not run laquered cases through an AR. Because of the gas impingment sytem venting hot gases into the chamber it gets many times hotter than a Saiga or AK, and like was said it will coat the chamber. I used some in a match chambered rifle and it didn't take long for it to start hiccuping, and took me some time to figure out the problem. Then it just took a brush on a drill and lots of oil. The silver coated cases are a completely different story and run great. I like the Silver Bear 62gr match HP a lot.

[Vultite 57]

i have found that poly wolf doesn't work in MP15 AR's AT ALL!!, my buddy bought 1200 rounds of it and went to the range, and fired one shot, then click, the bolt carrier skimmed over the round and wouldn't pick it up or didn't have enough ass behind the round to come back all the way to get it, it was horrible, I had a bushy AR and shot non poly wolf, silver bear and of course regular brass outta it without a single jam, probably 3000 rounds without a problem before i sold it, but i took great care of my rifle. Saiga>AR unless the AR has a gas piston upper...

[quinci956 1]

Okay, funny occurance my last trip to the range.

I'm shooting my Saiga 16" .223 and the guy next to me was shooting an AR.

It was each our first outing with our respective rifles.

 

He starts asking me about getting a real AK. So I respond well my Yugo M70 there looks like an AK but has US parts. This Saiga I'm holding is all made in Russia, but may not look like what you expect. He seems really curious about AK's (he's only shot pistols and shotguns, first day with AR). I offer him to shoot the Saiga. He shoots away. He offers me to shoot his new Bushmaster AR carbine. Now I'll admit although I've shot SKS's, Norinco Hunters/AK's, and those mentioned above, I've never shot an AR . He makes sure it's set to go, I check as well.

 

I aim and <click>. I noticed he was messing with the AR earlier--never-the-less he starts checking it again. Aim and <click>. He pulls out the Mag checks the rounds and puts it back in. I fire one, <click>, charger, fire two. I couldn't help but notice when he pulled the mag out that the two visible rounds were one Wolf and one brass.

 

Now I've heard all the bickering back and forth about AR's jamming and Wolf ammo. I'm sure much of it is overblown. I know AR's are fine rifles and the good ones can be very accurate. I just get a kick out of the fact that my first (attempted) shot with an AR fit the cliche that's constantly debated.

 

He was new with the AR so maybe it was him. I told him that Wolf (especially the older stuff) can give an AR headaches. Shooting brass after Wolf can cause jams as well. Who knows. . .

 

The lousy part is that I was so distracted by the jams, that I never really evaluated the feel of shooting an AR.

 

I posted similar results last year. I had just finished my first .223 conversion and was quite pleased with the results. http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showto...&hl=madmilo

[jack75 0]

Regarding Wolf ammo, I put some of this stuff through my Romak-3 (haven't shot my Saiga yet), and my friend put some through his SKS. We both agree: they cut it with black powder. This stuff produces the nastiest, most disgusting black fouling we've ever seen, even compared to low-grade surplus. I saw huge granules of powder come out of my gun. An AR-15 would freaking CHOKE on the stuff. It shoots great, no doubt about that, but it makes a colossal mess. Long story short, I'll be putting surplus ammo through my Romak unless I really need the accuracy, and Sellier and Bellot or Winchester through my Saiga.

hey this is my first post on this forum and ive put about 300 rounds of wolf and 100 rounds of american eagle and not a single jam in my model 1 kit built ar-15 i also stagger them in my us-gi 30 rd prebans.Just thought id weight in on this ar-15 sucks it hard deal.

[SirROFL 13]

Saying the AR jams a lot is like saying the AK is innaccurate. It's a matter of semantics.

 

When some people say "AKs aren't accurate" they mean, "it won't hit within an inch of wherever I put the sights at 800 yards"...not gonna happen.

When some people say "ARs jam", they mean "my cheapshit unlubed rifle with crappy mags and WalMart ammo (which by the way is all seconds) won't fire every single time"...also not gonna happen.

 

There are always exceptions to the rule, and there are always people with expectations that are too high, and there are always people who just don't know what they're doing.

 

A tight fitted AR with some good mags will function just as reliably as any AK, and a poorly made AK with Promags will jam just as much as the worst AR.

[jack75 0]

Saying the AR jams a lot is like saying the AK is innaccurate. It's a matter of semantics.

 

When some people say "AKs aren't accurate" they mean, "it won't hit within an inch of wherever I put the sights at 800 yards"...not gonna happen.

When some people say "ARs jam", they mean "my cheapshit unlubed rifle with crappy mags and WalMart ammo (which by the way is all seconds) won't fire every single time"...also not gonna happen.

 

There are always exceptions to the rule, and there are always people with expectations that are too high, and there are always people who just don't know what they're doing.

 

A tight fitted AR with some good mags will function just as reliably as any AK, and a poorly made AK with Promags will jam just as much as the worst AR.

well said

[devildog1122 0]

I hear this every time I go to the range, but now I just let it go into one ear and out the other. These folks are comparing apples and oranges.

[lonerider 1]

The rounds may not have been seated properly in the mag before he inserted it. I used to tap the mag against my helmet to get them flush.

 

I still do that to this day! With anything that uses a Magazine! Learned it in SE Asia, things would stick together in the humidity of the jungle

[Vultite 57]

Saying the AR jams a lot is like saying the AK is innaccurate. It's a matter of semantics.

 

When some people say "AKs aren't accurate" they mean, "it won't hit within an inch of wherever I put the sights at 800 yards"...not gonna happen.

When some people say "ARs jam", they mean "my cheapshit unlubed rifle with crappy mags and WalMart ammo (which by the way is all seconds) won't fire every single time"...also not gonna happen.

 

There are always exceptions to the rule, and there are always people with expectations that are too high, and there are always people who just don't know what they're doing.

 

A tight fitted AR with some good mags will function just as reliably as any AK, and a poorly made AK with Promags will jam just as much as the worst AR.

agreed for regular civilian use, in a combat situation i wouldn't have a AR/M16 based weapon unless it was piston converted.... I never had a issue with my old AR except it being dirty as fuck and starting to have noticable issues towards the back end of 300 rounds in a row, but would still load and fire, just not trustworthy in a real needed situation, i'd trust a well made AK or any well made piston rifle. Sold the AR and got a saiga, but building 2 more AR's for a piston upper build. B/C of accuracy and availability of parts. Plus gotta support US makers

[Falcon66 1]

agreed for regular civilian use, in a combat situation i wouldn't have a AR/M16 based weapon unless it was piston converted....

 

Unfortunately most of us who go into actual combat don't have the luxury of choice. Fortunately the M4 performs a thousand times better than some would like you to think. Yea, the ratty old M16's in Basic don't work worth a shit half the time, same as the worn out M16's issued to support units, but I have seen very very few malfs from a properly maintained M4 after spending days and thousands of live rounds down range at 11B school.

 

One majorly overlooked feature on many AR's is the chrome lined chamber and bore, AND chrome lined bolt. If it doesn't have those features, save your money and look elsewhere. Too many of the "mil spec" parts I've seen are in fact not "mil-spec." The ones that really make me laugh are 1/9 non chrome lined barrels listed as such.