Fallschirmjager 0 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 First off I'm not a shotgun fan. I suppose I found them somewhat limited in comparison to rifles of varying military calibers. I have owned the obligatory riot shotgun. It was fun but somehow just didn't 'fit the bill' with me. So it got traded for a rifle. Fast forward 20 years (yea, I'm old). So all the raving about the Saiga12 finally got my attention. I read a lot here, and learned a lot. And in the past year I managed to watch out for someone who wanted to sell their Saiga. A lot came and went, not quite hitting my 'hot button' to buy. Finally one became available. The pictures sent looked pretty good. Already modified with the pistol grip, ACE 8.5" folding stock with 1" butpad (actually measures almost 1" at top and curves to about .5" at bottom of butt (never was wild about those folders, but what the heck), shark brake (I don't plan on bustin' down any doors; but ya never know), tromix trigger group and trigger guard, Tromix gas system, Tapco Galil front hand guard, Tapco folding forgrip, a couple small equipment rails, BHO (not LSBHO) and refinished in a black epoxy (at least that is what I think it is). That pretty well covers it. So you get the idea. Well a couple weeks went buy before going to the range (this has been several months ago). So I get some shotgun ammo, basic bird shot, for a test. So I spent an hour or so just checking it out. Time ran short and I had to pack it in. Now this past week I finally got the chance to go and do some real testing. Ran some 00buck through it along with some 3" bird shot, and the regular bird shot. Mixed and matched the ammo and it digested everything...hmmmmmm! OK mixed again between the 2 3/4 and 3"...digested that too. Hmmmmm..........again. You have to understand one reason I'm not a shotgun fan, outside of the long range limitations, is because of recoil. I have artificial shoulder joints, so recoil is a critical component of any long gun. Well, here is where I run into the problem with the Saiga 12. Because of the gas system design by Izhmash, whereby the bolt stroke is longer and the gas is bled off thus reducing recoil...it is comfortable even for me to shoot as long as I'm shooting 2 3/4 shells and bird shot or 00 buck in reduced recoil loads. And therein is the core of the problem...I like this shotgun...no make that I love this shotgun. And that's why I hate it. Now I am going to have to stock 12ga. ammo of several types, magazines...ok a 20rnd drum if possible. This thing is going to bleed me dry of what funds I have left............................break my stinkin' heart I hate when that happens! So here is what I have run through it: Winchester Xpert Hi-Velosity 3" 1 1/4oz #1 Steel Shot...this makes my shoulder smart even on gas setting 1 (I may not shoot anymore of this unless I can find a better recoil pad!) Fiocchi Low Recoil 2 3/4" 00 Buckshot (nickle plated)...comfortable for even me to shoot! What little I did cycle through it, it fed & ejected flawlessly. Winchester Universal 2 3/4" #6 shot 1 1/8oz...easy on the shoulder and this was what my initial testing and followup testing included. So from some other posts it was mentioned that the Universal should be avoided. Was this because of a failure to feed or eject problem, or from experience where it damaged the shotgun? I had no failure with this ammo, except when I 'limp wristed' it the first time I fire it. So here are my questions since I am going to be forced to keep this shotgun...yea, break my heart again. 1. Ammo suggestions needed: slug, 00 Buck among other self defense ammo. If I understood one thread, not on here that I remember, there was a mention of a slug for the 12 ga. shotguns that had a 100+ yd 1" group capability if the shooter was accurate. Is there such an animal? I'm just not familiar with shotgun ammo outside of bird shot and 00 buck. 2. Butt pad suggestions to lighten up the recoil from 3" ammo? The ACE fits well but my shoulder tells me "more padding please if your going to shoot 3" shells". 3. There isn't a front sling mount. The ACE stock has the rear mount. There was this little 'thingy' in the box that looked like it could hold the clip of the front of an AK sling. But it looked flimsy and I couldn't figure where to mount it with the Galil hand guard. Suggestions welcomed for a sturdy front mount. 4. The stock sights are somewhat hard for me to get a good sight picture, that may require the HK type sights or other sight for longer sight radius. Recommendations appreciated. That's about it. Looks like I'm getting hooked on Saiga Shotguns; there goes my budget. Why, oh why did I ever get curious bout Saiga's? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ductapeman 1 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Welcome to the club, my friend! I (and I think most of us) went through something similar when we first got ours, too, so don't feel bad. I think you're going to like it here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Why, oh why did I ever get curious bout Saiga's? When the dealer says, "All the cool kids are doing it." or "It'll make you fly." You're supposed to run away. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 I hear ya'! I hate them so much I am shopping for a third one! As far as recoil abatement goes, get yourself an Enidine Buffer. It works with M4 style stocks (which you can still put recoil pads on). Better than any pad you can put on (in my opinion)! http://www.enidine.com/ebds/514-76.pdf I have one on my Tromix conversion and I will be getting another one for the one I converted myself soon. It is like shooting a .410 with the buffer - even with slugs and buckshot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
motopolitico 0 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 This thing is going to bleed me dry of what funds I have left............................break my stinkin' heart I hate when that happens! You can stop the hemorrhage, but you must act Quickly! Just send me a PM and $100 and I will take it off your hands and dispose of it properly, thereby stopping your bleeding. My generous offer to rid you of that burden expires soon. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Welcome to the club! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Welcome to the club. No better shotgun in the world..period. 1. Get some sabot slugs and try them with the "Paradox" rifled choke tube you can get at Rusmilitary.com (I think they may still have them or know where to find them) This is a factory Izhmash rifled extension that will thread onto your factory barrel threads. I still haven't tried mine with the correct type of sabot slugs that it needs to function right, but have read that the Russians get increased slug accuracy from it. Don't waste time using foster slugs though, as they will only foul the rifling and make accuracy worse. Otherwise though....I get pretty good accuracy from Remington Sluggers with no choke. Cloverleafs are not unheard of at 50 yds... 2. It's hard to beat the 1" pad on the Ace IMO. I've never used a limbsaver but from my understanding they are about the best. One good thing about the Ace is the fact that it comes with threaded holes in the butt, so you could screw about anything to it. 3. I have inletted and attached the factory front sling loops to different HGs before. You could easily just get a metric nut the size of that screw, and drill the Galil HG for it to attach anywhere. I would keep it in the thickest area and not around the top where it doesn't have support. 4. I don't care much for the HK sights. You can get a front sight from the forum store here, that clamps on the barrel and looks / works just like an AK front sight. It comes with a replacement rear that has a smaller notch for more accuracy. You can also get a nice set from Krebs Custom. They also fit the gun and install easily. They have a ghost ring rear, rather than a notch, and the front sight is like an AK style with no windage adjustment. It uses AR sight pins. The sights are the weak link on the S-12. Some people go for the clamp on aftermarket sights, and some go to rails with optics. Ultimak sells a nice rail that mounts over the gas tube, and so do I. ETA.... There is also a sight rail on the left side of the receiver, made for an AK scope mount. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Makc 64 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Welcome to the club of "Saiga Haters" buddy!!! You will find many equally challenged people here!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Franky 2 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 :super: :super: :super: :super: :super: :super: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gtnichols 51 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Bernnake 1oz slugs, 4 inch groupings at 75 yards,.. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
G O B 3,516 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 We are all afflicted with the Saiga disease here. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GPalmer 1 Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 So here are my questions since I am going to be forced to keep this shotgun...yea, break my heart again. Just wait until they start breeding, I now have four of them around the house! 1. Ammo suggestions needed: slug, 00 Buck among other self defense ammo. If I understood one thread, not on here that I remember, there was a mention of a slug for the 12 ga. shotguns that had a 100+ yd 1" group capability if the shooter was accurate. Is there such an animal? I'm just not familiar with shotgun ammo outside of bird shot and 00 buck. I would take it easy with slugs, remember, it's a big heavy chunk of lead and it takes a lot to stop it. It's definitely going through the bad guy even if you hit and then continuing on... 2. Butt pad suggestions to lighten up the recoil from 3" ammo? The ACE fits well but my shoulder tells me "more padding please if your going to shoot 3" shells". I'd try the Tromix wsith a LimbSaver. I haven't tried the LimbSaver on the Saiga since the recoil doesn't bother me but it works wonders on my 30-06. 4. The stock sights are somewhat hard for me to get a good sight picture, that may require the HK type sights or other sight for longer sight radius. Recommendations appreciated. That's about it. Looks like I'm getting hooked on Saiga Shotguns; there goes my budget. Why, oh why did I ever get curious bout Saiga's? Might also consider a RedDot, you can pick up a EOTech 512 for $250 off EBay by getting a rebate through Microsoft LiveSearch, I just did. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
surfmaster 5 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 BuffetDestroyer, Glad the Enidine Buffer system is working for you. I would like to ask whether you have done anything extra to your Saiga 12 setup with the buffer, since the buffer is originally designed to work with an AR-15 with a bolt that moves back and compresses the buffer spring and buffet itself. It would appear the Enidine buffer would primarily actly like just a weight since it's not stopping the Saiga 12 spring or bolt from directly moving back. Have you tried the MGI buffer system? Thanks for your reply. I hear ya'! I hate them so much I am shopping for a third one! As far as recoil abatement goes, get yourself an Enidine Buffer. It works with M4 style stocks (which you can still put recoil pads on). Better than any pad you can put on (in my opinion)! http://www.enidine.com/ebds/514-76.pdf I have one on my Tromix conversion and I will be getting another one for the one I converted myself soon. It is like shooting a .410 with the buffer - even with slugs and buckshot. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HillBilly2 9 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 BuffetDestroyer, Glad the Enidine Buffer system is working for you. I would like to ask whether you have done anything extra to your Saiga 12 setup with the buffer, since the buffer is originally designed to work with an AR-15 with a bolt that moves back and compresses the buffer spring and buffet itself. It would appear the Enidine buffer would primarily actly like just a weight since it's not stopping the Saiga 12 spring or bolt from directly moving back. Have you tried the MGI buffer system? Thanks for your reply. I hear ya'! I hate them so much I am shopping for a third one! As far as recoil abatement goes, get yourself an Enidine Buffer. It works with M4 style stocks (which you can still put recoil pads on). Better than any pad you can put on (in my opinion)! http://www.enidine.com/ebds/514-76.pdf I have one on my Tromix conversion and I will be getting another one for the one I converted myself soon. It is like shooting a .410 with the buffer - even with slugs and buckshot. No, you don't have a clear picture yet. The enidine will not work on an AR, it is a spring loaded hydraulic tube made with the same dimensions as an AR buffer so you can attach a M4 type stock to it. It was designed to be used with a shotgun. When the shotgun is fired it will compress the buffer which has almost an inch of travel. this will greatly reduce the felt recoil. The front end of the Enidine is solid where it screws into the receiver. Hope this helps.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
twistedpsyche 0 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 BuffetDestroyer, Glad the Enidine Buffer system is working for you. I would like to ask whether you have done anything extra to your Saiga 12 setup with the buffer, since the buffer is originally designed to work with an AR-15 with a bolt that moves back and compresses the buffer spring and buffet itself. It would appear the Enidine buffer would primarily actly like just a weight since it's not stopping the Saiga 12 spring or bolt from directly moving back. Have you tried the MGI buffer system? Thanks for your reply. I hear ya'! I hate them so much I am shopping for a third one! As far as recoil abatement goes, get yourself an Enidine Buffer. It works with M4 style stocks (which you can still put recoil pads on). Better than any pad you can put on (in my opinion)! http://www.enidine.com/ebds/514-76.pdf I have one on my Tromix conversion and I will be getting another one for the one I converted myself soon. It is like shooting a .410 with the buffer - even with slugs and buckshot. No, you don't have a clear picture yet. The enidine will not work on an AR, it is a spring loaded hydraulic tube made with the same dimensions as an AR buffer so you can attach a M4 type stock to it. It was designed to be used with a shotgun. When the shotgun is fired it will compress the buffer which has almost an inch of travel. this will greatly reduce the felt recoil. The front end of the Enidine is solid where it screws into the receiver. Hope this helps.... And where would you purchase said item? I've done a search and keep coming up with this: http://www.buffertech.com/stores/1/AR-15_Accessories_C12.cfm Which appears to be slightly different. Should do the job though. Right? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
surfmaster 5 Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Now I get it. Thanks for your clarification. BuffetDestroyer, Glad the Enidine Buffer system is working for you. I would like to ask whether you have done anything extra to your Saiga 12 setup with the buffer, since the buffer is originally designed to work with an AR-15 with a bolt that moves back and compresses the buffer spring and buffet itself. It would appear the Enidine buffer would primarily actly like just a weight since it's not stopping the Saiga 12 spring or bolt from directly moving back. Have you tried the MGI buffer system? Thanks for your reply. I hear ya'! I hate them so much I am shopping for a third one! As far as recoil abatement goes, get yourself an Enidine Buffer. It works with M4 style stocks (which you can still put recoil pads on). Better than any pad you can put on (in my opinion)! http://www.enidine.com/ebds/514-76.pdf I have one on my Tromix conversion and I will be getting another one for the one I converted myself soon. It is like shooting a .410 with the buffer - even with slugs and buckshot. No, you don't have a clear picture yet. The enidine will not work on an AR, it is a spring loaded hydraulic tube made with the same dimensions as an AR buffer so you can attach a M4 type stock to it. It was designed to be used with a shotgun. When the shotgun is fired it will compress the buffer which has almost an inch of travel. this will greatly reduce the felt recoil. The front end of the Enidine is solid where it screws into the receiver. Hope this helps.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 I have the AK style clamp on front sight, and the replacement rear sight that you can buy here from saiga.com Much better than trying to aim with the bead on the gas tube IMO and makes the shotty look much better. Easiest way to handle recoil is to pick the rounds that you can shoot without pain and stick to them. I have noticed that I am moving away from the 3 inch shells and am going with the 2 3/4 inch for that same reason. Other than that, sounds like you are pretty well set up, except for the MD 20 drum (which is out now) and the Cobra LRBHO (soon, very soon) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lokmeup 30 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Brenneke KO Slugs http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemDetail.aspx?sku=37895 Speer Lawman 00 Buck http://www.northwestshootersupply.com/spee...ckshot5rds.aspx Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager 0 Posted October 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Thanks for all the help gang ! That is what I like about gun boards in general. There is a ton of talent and experience that a newbe to a particular firearm or other things can get some good solid advice. A big salute to the Saiga forum creators and moderators for the time and effort to set this Fourm up. I hadn't intended to use slugs heavily but to have some around isn't a bad idea. 00 buckshot for self defense, or a 3 gun match (if I get around to go to one) would be the main use for 00 buck. I had thought of doing some bird hunting next year; and I could see people freaking out when I pulled the Saiga 12 out of the case ! In our state a simple plug to limit the number of rounds in the magazine is fine. I wonder if mounting on an anti-aircraft mount for recoil control would help ? I can hear the dove hunters now, "Hey, Hank! What the heck kind of bird gun is that?" [insert evil laugh]. The sight ideas gave me some different options. It is almost impossible to keep up with all that is being developed for customizing firearms. If anyone has anything else to add, I'm all ears...leastwise when the wind blows my ears flop in the wind like a flag! Thanks again. BTW here is the new toy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 I love that the new guys fall in love just as quickly as the rest of did, STILL. The only problem with that gun there IMHO is the sights. I can't stand the sights that come with the gun. I put on sights from Krebs, they're peep or "ghost ring" sights that use a front sight base at the muzzle like on an AK rifle. Welcome to the board, say goodbye to the cash it takes to upgrade your sights, buy a drum, and cover the ground in hulls. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakko 10 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Coming here to complain is like going to a bar to get sober! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Surfmaster - Sorry for the delay... The PDF is for the "Shot Shock" Enidine Buffer that only works on shotguns. The reason for the confusion is that Enidine does make an hydraulic buffer for the AR15 that goes into the existing buffer tube. The Shot Shock buffer that I have screws into an ACE LTD. Pignose adapter (which can be put on Tromix plate, or ACE reciever blocks - with or without the folding mechanism). Additionally there are a few cheap "AR15 Stock Adapter" that installs in the receiver and takes all AR style buffer tubes. Try: http://www.combathunting.com/AK47_AK74_MAC...d_Variants.html http://www.ultimak.com/AKSA.htm I have no experience with those above as Tromix welded mine with the adapter plate, folding mechanism and pignose. Thanks to Hillbilly2 for stepping in and clarifying for me in my absence. The places I have found the Enidine Shot Shock Buffers follow: http://www.tacticalshotgunner.com/enidine-...fb3a658c0bc9304 http://www.botachtactical.com/enshsh.html http://www.nokick.com/Enidine_Shot_Shock_p...cal%2092170.htm I ordered mine from Botach (the cheapest), but a lot of guys have had bad luck with them based on previous posts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Fallschirmjager 0 Posted October 30, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Coming here to complain is like going to a bar to get sober! I'll drink to that! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Coming here to complain is like going to a bar to get sober! I'll drink to that! Here's another thread that might be worth a read.... http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=22165&hl= Every little bit helps! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
surfmaster 5 Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 BuffetDestroyer, Thanks for the clarification and your reply. Surfmaster - Sorry for the delay... The PDF is for the "Shot Shock" Enidine Buffer that only works on shotguns. The reason for the confusion is that Enidine does make an hydraulic buffer for the AR15 that goes into the existing buffer tube. The Shot Shock buffer that I have screws into an ACE LTD. Pignose adapter (which can be put on Tromix plate, or ACE reciever blocks - with or without the folding mechanism). Additionally there are a few cheap "AR15 Stock Adapter" that installs in the receiver and takes all AR style buffer tubes. Try: http://www.combathunting.com/AK47_AK74_MAC...d_Variants.html http://www.ultimak.com/AKSA.htm I have no experience with those above as Tromix welded mine with the adapter plate, folding mechanism and pignose. Thanks to Hillbilly2 for stepping in and clarifying for me in my absence. The places I have found the Enidine Shot Shock Buffers follow: http://www.tacticalshotgunner.com/enidine-...fb3a658c0bc9304 http://www.botachtactical.com/enshsh.html http://www.nokick.com/Enidine_Shot_Shock_p...cal%2092170.htm I ordered mine from Botach (the cheapest), but a lot of guys have had bad luck with them based on previous posts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shannon McNair 1 Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 Brenneke KO Slugs http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ItemDetail.aspx?sku=37895 Speer Lawman 00 Buck http://www.northwestshootersupply.com/spee...ckshot5rds.aspx I read somewhere here in the forums that the Saiga 12 won't cycle reduced recoil rounds. Anyone have direct experience? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 I read somewhere here in the forums that the Saiga 12 won't cycle reduced recoil rounds. Anyone have direct experience? I don't have my Saiga 12 yet, but they cycle reduced recoil loads just fine. Even the 8" guns are said to work fine with them. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
takenalook 0 Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 They will, but sometimes gas setting #2 must be used. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wakko 10 Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 I've shot reduced recoil slugs on setting 1 with no issues, but shot might be different. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted October 31, 2008 Report Share Posted October 31, 2008 (edited) Super light loads like 1oz minimum dram birshot loads won't cycle. But anyone that buys them is a fag anyway. Edited October 31, 2008 by Twinsen Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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