Spartacus 1,619 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 With all of the complaints of broken crappy mags around here, I see a huge opportunity for somebody with good business sense & abilities to market quality METAL mags for the S12. With the level of recoil on these guns and the constant pounding the mags take, anything over a 5 round mag should really be metal anyway. The poly mags are great for AK's but they don't seem to be the right choice for the shotguns. I would consider doing this myself if I had the capital to make it happen. I'm posting this in the hope that SOMEBODY will make it happen. Look at the prices we are all paying for the broken mags that don't last. Imagine being able to buy mags that you know will last. You would pay a few more bucks for them right? I would. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Eric Pate 478 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Get stampin. Let us know when the mags are ready. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
6500rpm 670 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Seems to me, past 8 rounds is the pucker point. The Russian plastic 8 rounder is flawless-any problems with the Surefire 5's or 8's? Do a search and you will find we had a member that went as far as making dies, spent months after bailing on the project trying to sell them, years later-still no metal mags for the 12. Might not be as easy or cost effective as one might think. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 +1 There's a reason why you don't see ANY russian S-12 mags over 8 rds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pedal2alloy 206 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Get stampin. Let us know when the mags are ready. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vbrtrmn 167 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 Make a good product at a fair price and people will buy it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 A member here (I think it was Patriot) mentioned something about checking mags to see if the bolt contacts them or not when you cycle it, and if it does, that might be what is causing the magazines to crack when fired. While it may not be the sole reason for the problems, it seems like it definitely could contribute. I agree that you don't hear any problems with 8 rounders, Surefire or Russian. While I personally have put a few hundred rounds through a 12 shot without any breakage, I know others haven't been so lucky. Some have broken their Surefires when shooting 3" shells. I tried a brand new 2nd Gen AGP mag and the front catch broke off on the first shot. That doesn't mean all AGPs are crap. An all metal mag sounds like a cool idea, but until we have one to try out, we won't know how it will do. The closest thing we've had would be the Wrathmaker aluminum drum, which I've never tried. I doubt it would be an issue of metal expanding and contracting when it gets hot or cold. There would be enough tolerance in it to allow for that I think. The manufacturing cost per mag might get pretty high though. I can't imagine it would be a $20.00 magazine. Under $100 probably, but still. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I'm currently trying to get some of these to see if I can finish them and get them to work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DogMan 2,343 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I think it would be worth considering for anyone developing any magwells in the future to try to design in as much lateral support for mags as possible to aleviate stresses at the connection points. I don't know if current ones help with that or not. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gmorgan 2 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I'm currently trying to get some of these to see if I can finish them and get them to work. WTF isat ??? no .. really .. WTF isat ??? Whatever it is i'll take 4 right now . Get to work snake !!! you got soooo many ideas and so little time Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Superhawk138 202 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 I'm currently trying to get some of these to see if I can finish them and get them to work. Cobra is that the same steel mag as this one. BTW what ever happened to the stamp to form these? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 With all of the complaints of broken crappy mags around here, I see a huge opportunity forsomebody with good business sense & abilities to market quality METAL mags for the S12. With the level of recoil on these guns and the constant pounding the mags take, anything over a 5 round mag should really be metal anyway. The poly mags are great for AK's but they don't seem to be the right choice for the shotguns. I would consider doing this myself if I had the capital to make it happen. I'm posting this in the hope that SOMEBODY will make it happen. Look at the prices we are all paying for the broken mags that don't last. Imagine being able to buy mags that you know will last. You would pay a few more bucks for them right? I would. All it would take for the injected mags to not break is a steel insert in the front mag catch. My drum has one, as well as the factory mags. You have never heard anybody say those broke off. And the drum is a hell of a lot heavier than any stick mag. The reason the factory stopped at 8 rds is a length thing and has nothing to do with the mag breaking. An injected mag is by far better than a metal mag. For every plus in a metal mag there will be 3 +'s in an injected mag. On a side note. Phil at Surefire contacted me seeking advice on his front mag catch. I told him how to reshape the front mag catch to make it stronger. He reshaped a few manually and it went from breaking at 6rds (tops) to 16 before it broke. I also gave him a hint on a different plastic material and I am betting that will be the last step in keeping it from breaking with the 3 inch stuff. I hope it solves it for everyone. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 All it would take for the injected mags to not break is a steel insert in the front mag catch. My drum has one, as well as the factory mags. You have never heard anybody say those broke off. And the drum is a hell of a lot heavier than any stick mag. The reason the factory stopped at 8 rds is a length thing and has nothing to do with the mag breaking. An injected mag is by far better than a metal mag. For every plus in a metal mag there will be 3 +'s in an injected mag. On a side note. Phil at Surefire contacted me seeking advice on his front mag catch. I told him how to reshape the front mag catch to make it stronger. He reshaped a few manually and it went from breaking at 6rds (tops) to 16 before it broke. I also gave him a hint on a different plastic material and I am betting that will be the last step in keeping it from breaking with the 3 inch stuff. I hope it solves it for everyone. The AGP mags have that metal tab and some have broke. It helps but is not the end all and be all. It would be nice if CMI got into the Saiga mag game but I doubt it. They make the steel M14 mags for the military and if we could get a mag like that for a Saiga 12 it would be the one to get as they are fairly indestructible. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MikeD 541 Posted March 15, 2009 Report Share Posted March 15, 2009 All it would take for the injected mags to not break is a steel insert in the front mag catch. My drum has one, as well as the factory mags. You have never heard anybody say those broke off. And the drum is a hell of a lot heavier than any stick mag. The reason the factory stopped at 8 rds is a length thing and has nothing to do with the mag breaking. An injected mag is by far better than a metal mag. For every plus in a metal mag there will be 3 +'s in an injected mag. On a side note. Phil at Surefire contacted me seeking advice on his front mag catch. I told him how to reshape the front mag catch to make it stronger. He reshaped a few manually and it went from breaking at 6rds (tops) to 16 before it broke. I also gave him a hint on a different plastic material and I am betting that will be the last step in keeping it from breaking with the 3 inch stuff. I hope it solves it for everyone. The AGP mags have that metal tab and some have broke. It helps but is not the end all and be all. It would be nice if CMI got into the Saiga mag game but I doubt it. They make the steel M14 mags for the military and if we could get a mag like that for a Saiga 12 it would be the one to get as they are fairly indestructible. AGP's DO NOT have metal in the front mag catch. Only the factory mags and my drum has one. Like I was saying... my drum has a steel insert. I have trimmed down 3 inch mag slugs and fed them through the drum. And the drum doesn't break. Twice the ammo and weight and still no break. A steel insert is an end all, be all, as you put it. You will not find a factory mag or one of my drums that has broke off the front mag catch. And I seriously doubt you ever will. I have taken one of my drums a beat the front mag catch area with a hammer. So bad that the only thing left was the steel insert. And that drum still locks in exactly the same as it did before. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) AGP's DO NOT have metal in the front mag catch. Only the factory mags and my drum has one. Like I was saying... my drum has a steel insert. I have trimmed down 3 inch mag slugs and fed them through the drum. And the drum doesn't break. Twice the ammo and weight and still no break. A steel insert is an end all, be all, as you put it. You will not find a factory mag or one of my drums that has broke off the front mag catch. And I seriously doubt you ever will. I have taken one of my drums a beat the front mag catch area with a hammer. So bad that the only thing left was the steel insert. And that drum still locks in exactly the same as it did before. Well there may be one on your drum but there is no metal on the front factory 5 round mag catch it is a plastic tab like the AGP. Both have a metal tab in the rear though. Unless you speak of the factory 8 rounder I have not seen one of those but there is no metal front tab on the 5 rounder. Edited March 16, 2009 by lipadj46 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ML Roak 0 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 OEM 8s have the metal tab injected into place, the OEM 5 rounders aren't heavy enough to make a difference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 OEM 8s have the metal tab injected into place, the OEM 5 rounders aren't heavy enough to make a difference. I could see how that would be a good feature that is probably the highest stress point during recoil. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
nabors 0 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 (edited) AGP's DO NOT have metal in the front mag catch. Only the factory mags and my drum has one. Like I was saying... my drum has a steel insert. I have trimmed down 3 inch mag slugs and fed them through the drum. And the drum doesn't break. Twice the ammo and weight and still no break. A steel insert is an end all, be all, as you put it. You will not find a factory mag or one of my drums that has broke off the front mag catch. And I seriously doubt you ever will. I have taken one of my drums a beat the front mag catch area with a hammer. So bad that the only thing left was the steel insert. And that drum still locks in exactly the same as it did before. Well there may be one on your drum but there is no metal on the front factory 5 round mag catch it is a plastic tab like the AGP. Both have a metal tab in the rear though. Unless you speak of the factory 8 rounder I have not seen one of those but there is no metal front tab on the 5 rounder. Get a magnet and check your factory mag. Mine has a steel front catch reinforcement. Edited March 16, 2009 by nabors Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cobra 76 two 2,677 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 I'm currently trying to get some of these to see if I can finish them and get them to work. Cobra is that the same steel mag as this one. BTW what ever happened to the stamp to form these? Yep...same mag. Production was canceled on these and the dies put up for sale. I wish I knew who ended up with those. I sent the maker an email today to see what I could find out. At one time he was even taking orders on the stamped halves of these mag bodies and that petered out too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
uzitiger 193 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 The plastic magazine strength depends on fiber orientation which can make or break the parts and determine pat strength. If the glass fibers are not oriented in the vertical direction the magazines will be weaker. I worked at a sunroof maker and they had a problem with the air deflectors breaking sometimes in the mold due to pin gates which injected the fibers in a vertical direction on a horizontal part. The part strength increased down the part length as the fibers oriented themselves horizontally. The magazine makers need to see the way their fibers orient and the type of gating used to inject the parts. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
corbin 621 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Very cool mags Cobra. Not sure how well they'd work, but cool nonetheless. Mike, do you think there's much merit in the idea that the bolt hitting the top rear of a mag has much to do with the front tab breaking or cracking? It seemed logical to me, but I've not torture tested enough stuff to have an educated opinion on it. Awesome drum by the way! You need a video on adjusting spring tension though. Corbin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
partsman 0 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 i dont get it i got 6 agp 10 rounders an 2 surefire 12 rounders not a problem with any of them. i must have got lucky.... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TheGlobule 1 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 Like Mike D said, one or more steel insert would suffice to eliminate the broken mag problems. Look at the AK Bulgarian mags made be Arsenal. Do the same construction for the S-12 mag... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 You'd spend your time more wisely IMO looking for a solid contract to import the Russian 8-rnd mags. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 What's the deal with the Russian 8 rounders? Are they in so much demand, because they're factory mags? Are they highly reliable? I saw a post on WarriorTalk, where Gabe was selling them for "Only $300 for 3 mags". $100 per mag?!?!?!? I can't even fathom spending $100/8 round mag. Maybe I'm just too poor to even think about it, because the lot he was selling, sold out pretty damn quick. I know I'm new to the S12 game, but damn. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 You'd spend your time more wisely IMO looking for a solid contract to import the Russian 8-rnd mags. I don't know jack about contracts and importing stuff, but how hard would it be for RAAC to import them, along with the Saigas themselves? I'm not talking about including them with S12's, as the 5 rounder is. But just importing the mags along with the S12's, in the same shipment? What's the problem with this? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 What's the deal with the Russian 8 rounders? ...Are they highly reliable? Yes, exactly this. They have a really sturdy feel too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BobAsh 582 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 ...but how hard would it be for RAAC to import them, along with the Saigas themselves? I'm not talking about including them with S12's, as the 5 rounder is. But just importing the mags along with the S12's, in the same shipment? What's the problem with this? I don't think that RAAC could get away with it, since the magazine makes the stock Saiga "non-sporting". It wouldn't matter if they shipped in separate boxes, it would still constitute an illegal "assault weapon kit". The magazine importer would have to be a third party imo, and it would be tricky even then. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
22_Shooter 1,560 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 ...but how hard would it be for RAAC to import them, along with the Saigas themselves? I'm not talking about including them with S12's, as the 5 rounder is. But just importing the mags along with the S12's, in the same shipment? What's the problem with this? I don't think that RAAC could get away with it, since the magazine makes the stock Saiga "non-sporting". It wouldn't matter if they shipped in separate boxes, it would still constitute an illegal "assault weapon kit". The magazine importer would have to be a third party imo, and it would be tricky even then. Ah, that makes sense. So how did the ones that are floating around now, get into the country? Some rare deal? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
lipadj46 2 Posted March 16, 2009 Report Share Posted March 16, 2009 ...but how hard would it be for RAAC to import them, along with the Saigas themselves? I'm not talking about including them with S12's, as the 5 rounder is. But just importing the mags along with the S12's, in the same shipment? What's the problem with this? I don't think that RAAC could get away with it, since the magazine makes the stock Saiga "non-sporting". It wouldn't matter if they shipped in separate boxes, it would still constitute an illegal "assault weapon kit". The magazine importer would have to be a third party imo, and it would be tricky even then. Ah, that makes sense. So how did the ones that are floating around now, get into the country? Some rare deal? It's called the grey market. A person can buy one from another country and have it shipped here and as long as it makes it through customs they are set. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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