man-at-arms 2 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I know I'm asking for it here, but that's my point. Feel free to restore my faith in this platform! Just got done reading this excellent, comprehensive study of 12ga ballistics, and I am a little ashamed to admit that I've allowed some of my teenage conception of shotgun ballistics to carry over into adulthood. Sadder though, I'm sittin here wondering what 12ga really has on 7.62x39, apart from post-apocalyptic ammo availability. I own a CGW-converted S12 that is a damn hoot to shoot (see attached shot of my brother with seven casings in the air, we didn't even mean to do that), but after reading the above-linked breakdown, some suspicions that these aren't terribly practical relative to relatively far higher capacity, higher-performance rifles seems supported. Why the hell would I grab the S12 instead of my M70 in a SHTF scenario? Let me know what you guys think. I'm a big boy, I can take abuse. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 I know I'm asking for it here, but that's my point. Feel free to restore my faith in this platform! Just got done reading this excellent, comprehensive study of 12ga ballistics, and I am a little ashamed to admit that I've allowed some of my teenage conception of shotgun ballistics to carry over into adulthood. Sadder though, I'm sittin here wondering what 12ga really has on 7.62x39, apart from post-apocalyptic ammo availability. I own a CGW-converted S12 that is a damn hoot to shoot (see attached shot of my brother with seven casings in the air, we didn't even mean to do that), but after reading the above-linked breakdown, some suspicions that these aren't terribly practical relative to relatively far higher capacity, higher-performance rifles seems supported. Why the hell would I grab the S12 instead of my M70 in a SHTF scenario? Let me know what you guys think. I'm a big boy, I can take abuse. Shotguns are for home defense and limited range engagements not "SHTF" the M70 will go through walls and kill your household members,pets and even neighbors and isn't a smart choice for "Going Loud" in your own AO while the S12 is the perfect choice. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bvamp 604 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 thats good and fine and dandy and all, but ya need to change your avatar man. I love female bodies just as much as you do, but this isnt a porn shop (contrary to what Gaddis tells you) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
pt92 4 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 For me, if I want to reach out an touch someone at 75+ yrds., I will use a rifle (even slugs in some cases). For CQB, I will take a tactical shotgun. Very simple for me--Life is too short to worry about over-complicating things or looking for that single ever-elusive panacea. -Cheers Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SCBOWLES 0 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 shot guns are for close range use . espically when using shot yes even buck shot. I personally would not use slugs at distances greater than 50 to maybe 75 yards . Cool articles thanks for the link. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) I did my own tests about 7 years ago with various 12ga loads including the sabotted flechette and things like old car sheetmetal and heavy plywood might as well be Bethlehem plate steel at ranges in excess of 40 yards for buckshot loads.The slide from a cheap walmart swingset left in the yard of a house that I bought would easily stop 00 Buckshot at 20 yards and sent some of the pellets back my way but for meaty targets getting caught on my porch or in my house it's prefect medicine and it's also good for pest control too.Dumps a whole lot of energy into a target as close range killing them ultra-dead and making gaping holes you can see daylight through insuring that the engagement at uncomfortably close range ends swifty without aftershocks or additional drama.. Edited June 1, 2009 by SOPMOD Quote Link to post Share on other sites
man-at-arms 2 Posted June 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 Shotguns are for home defense and limited range engagements not "SHTF" the M70 will go through walls and kill your household members,pets and even neighbors and isn't a smart choice for "Going Loud" in your own AO while the S12 is the perfect choice. As a brain-dead 16yo, I accidentally discharged a 0B load from an "empty" Beretta 1201 FP through the ceiling, an attic box full of christmas tree parts, and clean through the 1/2" plywood roof of my parent's house. The hole in the roof I had to repair was 2.5" across, and we had high ceilings. 00b will go through many layers of drywall, and the spread at even 50yd does not relieve one of the burden of aiming. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SOPMOD 254 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm 1. Notice that the #4 and #1 Buck penetrated 6 boards. In previous tests, 9mm, .45 ACP, and M-193 out of an AR all penetrated all 12 boards. So, it seems that these loads do not "over-penetrate" as much as some have led us to believe. The 00 Buck penetrated 8 boards, but was stopped by the 9th. Still not as much penetration as the pistol or rifle loads. The slug penetrated all 12 boards. 2. Once again, please notice the size of the entrance spreads....2 1/2" to 3 1/2". Therefore, anyone that says, "With a shotgun, you don't even have to aim. Just point it in the general area of the bad guy, and you can't miss", does not know what they are talking about. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) You may as well start a thread titled: "What's better, apples or oranges?" In a home-invasion type situation, I'd grab my S-12 over my SGL20. In all-out societal-breakdown anarchy, I'd carry both, obviously. 12 gauge is better for CQB and the rifle is obviously superior at any range over ~40 yards. Of course, one of the greatest aspects of the 12 gauge is its versatility. With slugs, the S-12 will always do more damage to any target, and the use of slugs extends the shotgun's effective range as well.. though nowhere near the range of the rifle. Edited June 1, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
man-at-arms 2 Posted June 1, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) You may as well start a thread titled: "What's better, apples or oranges?" In a home-invasion type situation, I'd grab my S-12 over my SGL20. In all-out societal-breakdown anarchy, I'd carry both, obviously. 12 gauge is better for CQB and the rifle is obviously superior at any range over ~40 yards. Of course, one of the greatest aspects of the 12 gauge is its versatility. With slugs, the S-12 will always do more damage to any target, and the use of slugs extends the shotgun's effective range as well.. though nowhere near the range of the rifle. My point is that real ballistics figures seem to make this more of an apples vs. pears question. Why specifically do you consider 12 gauge to be better for CQB? Is there a reason that outweighs capacity? thats good and fine and dandy and all, but ya need to change your avatar man. I love female bodies just as much as you do, but this isnt a porn shop (contrary to what Gaddis tells you) OK, ok, I changed the av and now she's holding forum-specific hardware. But let's have a look at your shop over at CGW, shall we Ben? Edited June 1, 2009 by man-at-arms Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted June 1, 2009 Report Share Posted June 1, 2009 (edited) Reason that out-weighs capacity? 30rds of .223 or 7.62x39 is 30rds.... and you need .2 seconds between each shot.... so if you were a SPEEDY ASS on that trigger you could get all 30 rounds down range in 6 seconds. Nice. Now, lotsa that energy is wasted as it penetrates your target, the walls behind it, and the walls behind that..... so on until it lodges in the 3rd house down the lane..... Now let's take the shotgun.... Say, 10 rounds of 00 buck (we won't even consider the 20rd drum at this point).... Given that you can pull your trigger at the same rate (same gun after all) so you can send all 10 rounds down range in 2 seconds.... Nice.... but wait, there's more.... You shot 9 times per trigger pull (9x 00 buck).... so really you shot 90 .32ACP/.380 auto type rounds in 2 seconds! a Single pellet of 0 or 00 Buck isn't much, but your force is multiplied.... you're shooting 9 projectiles at once... And, when it comes to HD and Self Defense, over-penetration is your enemy, not your friend.... I won't shoot a rifle indoors unless i HAVE to... too many chances of it finding its way OUTdoors. At least the cinder-block outer walls will stop #1 buck. ALSO, to add... Yes, shot loses energy FAST... thank god. If a 00 buck goes through your plate glass window, it probably WON'T find its way into the neighbor's house. Edited June 1, 2009 by SaigaNoobie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfixr 76 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 ..................... ultra-dead ............ Hhmmmm, is that kinda like "ultra-pregnant" ???? Shotguns really shine as a battle weapon at 20yds and less. The ability to hit with large numbers of decent-sized projectiles with few pulls of the trigger, coupled with just about the least over-penetration you can get, makes for a good combination. Also, for the home protection scenario, the ammo capacity isn't even a factor. If you need 30 rds of rifle ammo, the rifle didn't do you any good anyway, because all you've done is kill the whole neighborhood with all those misses. For SHTF, or TEOTWAWKI, I wouldn't take a shotgun as my main or only long arm. It's limitations would exceed its capabilities in that sort of scenario. But for home protection, or CQB .......... Personally, however, I live in a tight house with lots of corners, so I prefer a handgun for inside. If going outside into the yard, I prefer the shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) And.. of course, come the zompocalypse, a (semi-automatic) 12-gauge will be the preferred weapon for splattering those undead brains. Edited June 2, 2009 by post-apocalyptic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GPalmer 1 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 The 12 gauge is a great weapon at short distances such as those typically found in home defense. The longest shot I would ever take in that case would be around 25 yards and most likely MUCH shorter. It isn't what I'd want for a SHTF weapon where I might need to defend more than my immediate property though. For home defense my 8" Tromix with a 20 round drum should cover any need I have. If i can't deal with it with that many rounds then I'm probably already dead. For SHTF / longer range work I have 6.8 SPC and 30-06. Addressing that article, well, his numbers have some issues with them. Being generous, they appear to be based on old school pure lead shot. If you scroll through the PDF here, you'll find the published numbers for the loads he's discussing. LE-127 LE-132 Bare Gel 25" 23.25" Heavy Clothing 18" 24+" Steel 18" 17.25" Wallboard 20" 20.5" Plywood 18.25" 18.5" Glass 22.25" 18.5" Second, at 7 yards with those loads what you have is essentially a frangible slug striking the person. The shot will hit either in or right after spreading out of the cup. You're talking one big hole, a lot bigger than you're going to see with any intermediate range rifle round. Couple this with the lower penetration through walls and you have a winner. In addition to the permenent cavity you have a temporary cavity around the area which is hit. When these temporary cavities are overlapping you have tissue so badly damaged that it is probably not salvageable. Look that the spreads here and figure out how much damage 9 pellets in these sorts of groupings are going to do both from the permanent damage and the overlap of the temporary cavities and I think you'll begin to realize how damaging the 12 gauge is at short range. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Azrial 1,091 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Shotguns are designed for the engagement of multiple fast moving close range targets. Inside their designed range they are superb at what they do. The problem is that people are always pushing that envelope unrealistically. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Paladin 37 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 Shotguns are designed for the engagement of multiple fast moving close range targets. Inside their designed range they are superb at what they do. The problem is that people are always pushing that envelope unrealistically. ^^ This ^^ Different tools for different jobs. For SHTF grab the rifle. For assault in and around the base grab the S12. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ronswin 26 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) For CQB the shotgun (specifically the riotgun) is king. I'll just add to what SaigaNoobie's excellent post has as far as statistics for comparing shotgun to an SMG (i.e. Uzi or HK MP5): 9mm SMG w/ 30 round magazine= 30 .38 caliber 115 grain projectiles, 1312 FPS muzzle velocity @ approx. 600-650 rounds per minute. One trigger pull to equal 3-5 round burst. Saiga-12 w/ 10 round magazine= 10 #00 buck w/ 12 .33 caliber 60 grain projectiles, 1200 FPS muzzle @ approx. 300 rounds per minute (semi-auto) 120 total projectiles or 240 total projectiles with 20 round drum magazine. One trigger pull equal to one 12 round burst (using buckshot) in semi-auto. During range briefings, many younger members of my unit have expressed their disappointment over being issued a shotgun rather than a meaner-looking M-16 rifle for certain duties. Once I let them know the actual figures mentioned above, they realize that the combat shotgun possesses a higher rate of fire than a typical SMG. Edited June 2, 2009 by Ronswin Quote Link to post Share on other sites
billyjoebob 10 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) If you are worried about using the proper round in all situations, consider a multi-purpose round. Centurion makes a buck-ball round...a concept in use since the civil war The ball is tantamount to a slug, offering heavy penetration. The 6 buckshot rounds will hopefully give you ancillary coverage, and compensate for any "near misses" with the ball. I purchased a case of these rounds, and have put some through my 870 and saiga. They group extremely tightly at 25 yards, and provide more than enough recoil to prevent any FTF or FTE's in the saiga. Reviews of these rounds also state that they are excellent for medium game hunting. If you are worried about long distance shots and penetration, look at the Rio Armored Slugs I bought some of these too, but have only tried them from an 870. Groupings were EXTREMELY tight at 50 yards using a bench rest (less than 3 inches), and based on the rifling and aerodynamics, I would bet they still have a significant amount of penetrating power and accuracy at 100+ yards. You have to chose your weapon based on your situation, but you have to pay equal attention to your ammo. I've become proficient with many, many different weapons and the 12G shotgun remains my pick as most versatile HD and SHTF weapon. Edited June 2, 2009 by billyjoebob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
vintagedude88 16 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) For CQB - shotgun, no need to aim just point and shoot. Anything beyond 100yds - .308 turns most cover into merely camoflage. Did anyone see that Futureweapons episode where they showed a mini-grenade/missile inside a 12ga shell? Here's a pic. Definitely, a shotgun has the most versatility. Edited June 2, 2009 by FrustratedInCali Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) For CQB the shotgun (specifically the riotgun) is king. I'll just add to what SaigaNoobie's excellent post has as far as statistics for comparing shotgun to an SMG (i.e. Uzi or HK MP5): 9mm SMG w/ 30 round magazine= 30 .38 caliber 115 grain projectiles, 1312 FPS muzzle velocity @ approx. 600-650 rounds per minute. One trigger pull to equal 3-5 round burst. Saiga-12 w/ 10 round magazine= 10 #00 buck w/ 12 .33 caliber 60 grain projectiles, 1200 FPS muzzle @ approx. 300 rounds per minute (semi-auto) 120 total projectiles or 240 total projectiles with 20 round drum magazine. One trigger pull equal to one 12 round burst (using buckshot) in semi-auto. During range briefings, many younger members of my unit have expressed their disappointment over being issued a shotgun rather than a meaner-looking M-16 rifle for certain duties. Once I let them know the actual figures mentioned above, they realize that the combat shotgun possesses a higher rate of fire than a typical SMG. Exactly... I don't think of my shotgun as a BIG Rifle, so much as either a HUGE pistol or a battery of 10-12 pistols firing in Unison You get the same Energy in a 150gr .308 as you do in a 480gr slug. Difference is speed. You need a HUGE hollowpoint or ballistic tip to reliably open up the .30" projectile to .720"... with a 12ga, the slug starts at .720" and (if HP) opens up to 1"+.... The reason we use HP/SP/BT ammo? To get all the energy to STOP in the target.... With the Shotgun, it's easy to do, with a rifle, not so much... Edited June 2, 2009 by SaigaNoobie Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tover26 18 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 I would also add, similar to the Futureweapons poster, that shotgun ammo is way more diversified than rifle. One of the reasons my first gun is a shotgun is that it's: - a good learning platform, esp the Saiga. - no one mistakes these for toys - so many different types of ammo. To the original poster's point, if the only ammo for a shotgun fell into the same categories as rifle ammo, no one would ever grab a shotgun. As a newbie, I also picked this up because I just can't imagine myself engaging in long distance fights with anyone or anything. In a SHTF scenario, I'd probably end up wasting most of my rifle ammo missing my targets and then having to grab a shotgun for close up stuff. That being said, the area I'm in - whether city or otherwise - is so limited in line of sight that a shotgun pretty much will work for every and anything I could imagine. What was it they said at Bunker Hill/Revolutionary War? Don't shoot till you see the whites of their eyes. If they are that close, a shotgun is perfect. It's also perfect as they're getting that close. Past shotgun range, and in a SHTF scenario, unless you're a sharpshooter, it seems that the odds of missing are high enough that all you end up doing is making the target aware that you're there and armed. Moving to the ballistics discussion... are you really going to spend all that much time agonizing over ballistics in an HD scenario? I have 9 pellet and 15 pellet 00 buckshot. If I fail to have the presence of mind to load, aim, and shoot, having a rifle or handgun isn't going to help me at all. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
slyguy 0 Posted June 2, 2009 Report Share Posted June 2, 2009 (edited) You may as well start a thread titled: "What's better, apples or oranges?" In a home-invasion type situation, I'd grab my S-12 over my SGL20. In all-out societal-breakdown anarchy, I'd carry both, obviously. 12 gauge is better for CQB and the rifle is obviously superior at any range over ~40 yards. Of course, one of the greatest aspects of the 12 gauge is its versatility. With slugs, the S-12 will always do more damage to any target, and the use of slugs extends the shotgun's effective range as well.. though nowhere near the range of the rifle. My point is that real ballistics figures seem to make this more of an apples vs. pears question. Why specifically do you consider 12 gauge to be better for CQB? Is there a reason that outweighs capacity?...I agree it's apples to oranges to compare buckshot to x39 (or any rifle). Post-apo got it right: shotgun is significantly better under 20 or 30yd, and rifle is far superior 75yd+. There's definitely some gray area where they both work well. The shotgun patterning, knockdown force, and room for error in close quarters far outweigh the capacity IMO. Obviously it depends on choke, but at 7yds you're looking at basically a dime size hit (x39) versus softball size (buckshot), at 15yds you have same dime versus basketball size, and 25yds would be dime against beach ball. I don't know how your good your shooting stance will be in a stressful gunfight, but good luck with making that dime count at combat speeds on a moving target. No, not every pellet of the buckshot will hit at the 20+yd distances, but each is basic equivalent of a 9mm short pistol shot. That means a couple are plenty to ruin the day of an unarmoured person, esp when you consider the spread gives you greatly increased chances of a critical area hit. Additionally, if firing on a group of targets or loaded vehicle, you'll probably strike multiple targets with each buckshot. As far as SHTF situation, if you plan on regularly sniping and attacking people 50+yd away or fighting govt/military type war, then go AR and have a ball. If you want something practical to hunt and effectively defend youself and family/property indoors and at shorter outdoor distances, you probably want a shotty for reasons mentioned... and you can always extend the range a bit with slugs if you had to. Also, I know you didn't mention pump shotguns, but their feed reliability and buy/maintain cost is much superior to a semi-auto AR, and you can always add an ext tube to get 7 or 8 round capacity in a pump. Saiga or AA-12 style shotguns will narrow the capacity and reload speed differences when compared to AR, but the tradeoff is that you assume the same disadvantages as the AR: much higher cost and potential for jams or malfunction. Edited June 2, 2009 by slyguy Quote Link to post Share on other sites
man-at-arms 2 Posted June 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 (edited) For CQB - shotgun, no need to aim just point and shoot. The shotgun patterning, knockdown force, and room for error in close quarters far outweigh the capacity IMO. Obviously it depends on choke, but at 7yds you're looking at basically a dime size hit (x39) versus softball size (buckshot), at 15yds you have same dime versus basketball size, and 25yds would be dime against beach ball. I don't know how your good your shooting stance will be in a stressful gunfight, but good luck with making that dime count at combat speeds on a moving target. No, not every pellet of the buckshot will hit at the 20+yd distances, but each is basic equivalent of a 9mm short pistol shot. I appreciate all of the responses, particularly the more substantial among them such as from Glocker, but some of you fellers are not reading the report I linked to and/or watching too much TV. As it concerns aiming, there is no more "room for error" in close quarters than there is for a rifle. I also suspect many underestimate the penetrating power of 00b at 'indoor' ranges, and overestimate it at 'outdoor' ranges. Edited June 3, 2009 by man-at-arms Quote Link to post Share on other sites
davidsh 0 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I'm satisfied my 12 can get the job done inside 75 yds. Here's a 50 yd slug group with lousy factory sights and cheap bulk Federal slugs. The one flier was my error. (small holes are my daughter's with .22) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ChileRelleno 7,071 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Use the right tool for the job... Have a well stocked tool kit... Some tools have multiple use... The shottie is very versatile tool. Practicality? Inside of 50yrds, its the next best thing to a machine gun. My tool kit ................. Pistol, close quarters combat of all types, fighting your way back to the shottie/rifle you should never have dropped in the first place. Shottie, 0-25+yrds with various buckshot, 0-100yrds with various slugs. Carbine, 0-200+yrds. Rifle, 0-300+yrds. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
shades_of_grey 1,092 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Use the right tool for the job... Have a well stocked tool kit... Some tools have multiple use... The shottie is very versatile tool. Practicality? Inside of 50yrds, its the next best thing to a machine gun. My tool kit ................. Pistol, close quarters combat of all types, fighting your way back to the shottie/rifle you should never have dropped in the first place. Shottie, 0-25+yrds with various buckshot, 0-100yrds with various slugs. Carbine, 0-200+yrds. Rifle, 0-300+yrds. True, but Chile, ya gonna lug around 4 weapons on your person in a SHTF situation? I can see holstering a pistol, (a Glock 30 in my case and per my taste), and slinging both a S-12 and Saiga/other AK 7.62 carbine... but I'd leave the longer range rifle in the truck until it's needed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Did anyone mention that shooting slugs is really fun? thats probably the main reason I shoot my saiga so often. I spent a couple hours shooting clay pidgeons off of the front of the 50 yard burm with 1 1/8oz slugs a couple of weekends ago. Easily one of the most fulfilling sports known to man, and i dare say that that 492grain hunk of metal moving at 1500 fps might still have some sort of tactical purpose. Also, box of truth has an article that shows what a slug can do to nice thick peice of bullet resistant acrylic, its well worth the read. http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot6.htm Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Twinsen 86 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 If you have any belief that your SHTF attackers will have armor, go with a rifle. If you plan on taking one gun to hunt with, go shotgun. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Reverendfranz 160 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 I bought some of these too, but have only tried them from an 870. Groupings were EXTREMELY tight at 50 yards using a bench rest (less than 3 inches), and based on the rifling and aerodynamics, I would bet they still have a significant amount of penetrating power and accuracy at 100+ yards. You are right, those look pretty close to the loads i use and i worked up some ballistic graphs to show exactly how that translates over distance, its not exact, as i used the manufaturers stated velocity, and the saigas might be a little lower (or much lower if you have an 8in sbs) and i had to roughly guestimate the BC, and dont know exactly what drag model to use for a slug but i erred, i think, a bit on the pessimistic side, so this should give you a rough idea of what you can expect. After i sleep maybe ill take a closer look at the numbers, ive never played with slug ballistics before. The second line is a 115gr 9mm, just as a point of reference. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
SaigaNoobie 66 Posted June 3, 2009 Report Share Posted June 3, 2009 Read the Box-O-Truth article. .223 7.62x39 .308 FAIL! 12ga Slug WIN! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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