Aftermarket 10rd 12 guage magazine

[LEO 4]

Hey Guys:

 

First let me state that I believe that a 10 round Saiga-12 mag is impractical and that 7 or 8 round magazines would be a more practical option. My Saiga is outfitted with Galil parts to include the safety, stocks, and handguards with enough American made AK parts sprinkled in to keep it legal and has been sense before the ban sunset (look at my user name). I use this shotgun every day and it is ideal although I only have 5 round mags (even the law enforcement price on 8 rounders sucked when they were available).

 

Now, as a law enforcement officer, firearms instructor and former class 3 dealer If you guys don't think that the ATF looks at this site you are kidding yourself. If a reclassification of the Saiga under title 2 USC were to take place where do you think they might get those ideas from. I personally don't believe that the Republican administered ATF will do that, the Republican's have taken nothing 0 nada since George Bush Sr. signed the firearms owners protection act and they took our machine guns, But if they do they will have to come up with the idea somewhere and electronic intel is a real deal.

 

If you have a technical question concerning firearms the answer can only come from one place, Firearms technology Washington DC the field office can not answer a technical question and is rarely qualified to do so. Often times when you speak to an ATF agent at a field office he or she knows far less about firearms and the laws governing them than most of you guys.

 

I would like to see the moderators of this board prohibit any conversation referring to reclassification of the Saiga-12 by the ATF. We don't talk about how to do a full auto conversion here and I believe that all this talk about reclassification is equally as harmful.

 

One of these days I'll get a digital camera and post some pics of my shotgun. I think you guys would like it.

 

Richard

 

PS. Even though they would be long and awkward I'll take a couple, they'd be fun at the range.

[rochte 0]

"...I believe that all this talk about reclassification is equally as harmful."

 

I agree and will edit my previous postings momentarily...

[olderandslower 0]

I have a Siaga-12 for one purpose: To shoot 3-Gun.

The rules of 3-Gun allow 10 rounds in an extended tube or magazine in open division.

[avatar 4]

I have a Siaga-12 for one purpose: To shoot 3-Gun.

The rules of 3-Gun allow 10 rounds in an extended tube or magazine in open division.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

 

Sounds like a revisit of "suitable for sporting purposes" will soon be in the works (probably not but it should be ). Destructive devices my ass

 

oops forgot -- put me down for some of them totally bitchin' and 100% legal mags. Keep 'em under 30 and I'll take 4, no matter how much they hold.

Edited April 5, 2005 by avatar

[Bvamp 604]

well, sporting purposes isnt in the 2nd amendmant right, and is only found in game laws. how the two got combined is probably a lawsuit-worthy case in itself, let alone seperating the civilians the constitution was written for and LEO and national guard. that is illegal too

 

as for the ATF looking at the site, they SURE DO! ive also seen other people looking around when unsavory wordings are used. the website gets mirrored by an unknown entity. i for one never said they dont watch the forum.

 

as for DD classification, the saiga IS particularly sporting as it comes into the country. it is economical, reliable as hell, a great gun to duck hunt with, turkey eh....its prolly ok, and deer and other game that fall into buckshot/slug category it would be devastating on. so how the ATF can even think its unsporting in its imported state is beyond my logic.

 

I already have warned some people about the drum magazine issue, and even though ive caught shit for it, I have privately informed certain people that posting of any saiga with a drum will bring an immediate ban of thier account, and removal of said pictures.

 

now, full auto? well, as far as i know, the full auto pictures and other crap on here are all from class 3 holders. apart from one recent post which i just left up simply because it constantly comes up with an AKM type of how EASY it is to do.....note the animated responses from a few of us on how fast you will wind up in prison if you did it.

 

bump firing is nothing new, and I can bump fire any semi auto firearm, even a tube fed 12 gauge. that isnt illegal. if they government dont like guns, they should open a new country somewheres else, because the law says specifically that we can all be armed to the teeth. all gun legislation is illegal as far as i can see it, and should only apply to criminals, crazies, and foreigners. the GAME laws is what the gov. should be thinking about, not the honest civilian's rights to them.

 

ten round shotgun? eh, yeh its on the big side. so what. im sure the ATF is already planning on DD this gun anyhow, as the importer is just about to get thier ok to bring them in soon. so the ATF will get to see this shotgun once again on thier table, and as has been mentioned, they have looked around here to see how the average joe uses it.

 

you are telling me that i cant have a cheap shotgun that shoots nice, that i can use to do everything from eat, to protect my home?

 

someone want to explain to me how handguns are particularly suitable to sporting while we are on the subject? and then while i am bringing it up, a huge magazine, apart from being used in a firefight, isnt THAT particularly sporting? you need hi-caps to compete in gun matches, and in some cases, hi-caps ARE allowed to hunt with. how in hell ARENT hi-caps sporting? what rocket scientist that never had a gun when they were a kid or otherwise thought that one up?

 

uncle sam just wants to dominate its public citizenship is all.

 

you cops need to arm yourselves properly, because the criminals will get the firepower ANYWAY regardless of what the rest of us can and cant have. to not do so is criminal. glad to see some cops carry saigas. it'll never fail you.

[G O B 3,516]

Welcome LEO. It is refreshing to hear a voice of reason once in a while!

 

 

G O B

[Bvamp 604]

and oh yeh, if they use this board as a source to recalssify, them HAVE to consider those of us that have something to say about it, and how we all use it. you cant take a source of information and just use one part of it....wait, what am i talking about....this is the govt. they do whatever they feel like. screw it. we're f'd.

[McUZI 1]

Now, as a law enforcement officer, firearms instructor and former class 3 dealer...

 

...since George Bush Sr. signed the firearms owners protection act and they took our machine guns,

 

George Bush Sr. didn't sign the FOPA or anything having to do with machine guns.

RR signed the FOPA in 1986.

 

That little technical detail aside, I totally agree with the premise of your post. Of course, i'm speaking as someone who isn't a law enforcement officer, isn't a firearms instructor or who isn't a "class 3" dealer, but I agree none the less.

 

All this talk about reclassification is sowing the seeds of self-fufilling prophecy.

 

That said, I do believe that we have done enough to royally fuck ourselves by sole virtue of what has already been said, so hell.... Blabber away. There isn't anything we can say here that we haven't already said 100 times and that hasn't already been read by those folks doing the reading.

[froggiefun45 0]

ok folks... back on target... any word on the man who is putting thies mags together for us and a price set in stone?? Crosses fingers!

[LEO 4]

Hey:

 

FOPA Reagan ? I must be getting old. OK Reagan, dang I am getting old. I was there and I actually made a Lot of cash when that happened I've still got a couple of full auto guns that are doing better than any mutual fund. At any rate the ATF has changed under the current administration. I've been dealing with them for 20 years. There was a point in time that you couldn't get them to file any charges on a real crook now they will jump on the opportunity to file felon in possession charges. In the past they were to busy harassing dealers to be of any assistance to law enforcement. My point is that at this point in time the statement that the Saiga will be reclassified as a DD is wrong the current administration won't do that. The balance of power will shift again in the future and we should be quiet until then. All the legal misinformation presented here clouds some very good technical threads. There are several good RKBA sites on the internet heck maybe we need a RKBA section here where we can redirect people out of technical threads.

 

"Sporting purposes" is bullshit the second amendment reaffirms the god given right of the people to keep and bear arms (to include 10 round S-12 mags) in order to prevent oppression by the government. "Sporting purposes" was invented by the ATF under Clinton and I don't think you will see that term rearing it's ugly head under the current administration.

 

I bought the first Saiga-12 that I saw and a bunch of Galil parts and the guys thought I had lost my mind until I got it put together. It is the ideal law enforcement shotgun. I use to carry a MP5SD and over the years we have learned that 9mm sub guns really just don't cut it. I can end a fight abruptly with the Saiga and I've been the first guy through the door (number 1 in the stick) more times than I can count. I need to do a form 1 on my Saiga and cut it to about 14 inches but all the training and experimentation that I've done still kind of leaves it up in the air weather the added mobility of the short barrel makes up for the velocity loss and I don't want to be without it while I'm working out the gas port size.

 

Richard

[rochte 0]

"'Sporting purposes' was invented by the ATF under Clinton and I don't think you will see that term rearing it's ugly head under the current administration."

 

No, it's the unconstitutional premise behind GCA68. Perhaps someday - if W can add a strict constructionist or two to the bench - the Supreme Court will finally toss the GCA where it belongs (in the trash). I wouldn't hold my breath, though...

 

Agreed about keeping the discussion of reclassification, etc., to a minimum - I've already redacted my earlier posts.

 

Maybe this whole thread should simply be deleted and Motorcityman can repost his original message...

[Bvamp 604]

votes for removal? as well as future magazine over 8 round posts? i didnt wanna do it, but ill take a vote. yay or nay

[skiddog820 0]

i'm a new one on here, i dont care if there dependable or not i will at least git 1 (many more if there dependable), i dont care if there illegal to use on the gun , i just have a paper weght that happens to hold 10 12gage rounds , if the price is $100 or a lil more, i dont care what anyone say i know they will still be like a pair of g-strings on prom night - gone.

motercity just do what ya can to git these things made. and i know i will git at lest 2, hopefully 3-4.

see ya all

sid

[froggiefun45 0]

I for one... not that anyone ever reads my posts... vote the side of common sence... if there is any to be had. All the peoples crying " " foul... shut up! your not helping. and all the people glamerizing " " the 10 rounders keep it down. now motoman opened pandoras box and just about unleashed the end of the saiga... certainly not intensionaly. I am sure. he is a registered member with a working pm box and an e-mail addy. I say delete this thread and deal with him direct. all he wanted to know if there were enough takers to start a small production to help defure some of the cost. It , as usual, and in my own case," allow me to speak voodo", was not a thread for all the conspiretiors to go nuts with... just a simple poll on interest in a given project.

 

Again 1 vote for deletion and would incurage motoman to keep in touch and post an e-maill addy for a progress indicator. and god willing... someday maybe soon, we all will get a little e-mail that just brightens up the day 10 fold...

[McUZI 1]

Hey:

 

  FOPA Reagan ? I must be getting old. OK Reagan, dang I am getting old. I was there and I actually made a Lot of cash when that happened I've still got a couple of full auto guns that are doing better than any mutual fund. At any rate the ATF has changed under the current administration. I've been dealing with them for 20 years. There was a point in time that you couldn't get them to file any charges on a real crook now they will jump on the opportunity to file felon in possession charges. In the past they were to busy harassing dealers to be of any assistance to law enforcement. My point is that at this point in time the statement that the Saiga will be reclassified as a DD is wrong the current administration won't do that. The balance of power will shift again in the future and we should be quiet until then. All the legal misinformation presented here clouds some very good technical threads. There are several good RKBA sites on the internet heck maybe we need a RKBA section here where we can redirect people out of technical threads.

 

  "Sporting purposes" is bullshit the second amendment reaffirms the god given right of the people to keep and bear arms (to include 10 round S-12 mags) in order to prevent oppression by the government. "Sporting purposes" was invented by the ATF under Clinton and I don't think you will see that term rearing it's ugly head under the current administration.

 

  I bought the first Saiga-12 that I saw and a bunch of Galil parts and the guys thought I had lost my mind until I got it put together. It is the ideal law enforcement shotgun. I use to carry a MP5SD and over the years we have learned that 9mm sub guns really just don't cut it. I can end a fight abruptly with the Saiga and I've been the first guy through the door (number 1 in the stick) more times than I can count. I need to do a form 1 on my Saiga and cut it to about 14 inches but all the training and experimentation that I've done still kind of leaves it up in the air weather the added mobility of the short barrel makes up for the velocity loss and I don't want to be without it while I'm working out the gas port size.

 

  Richard

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

This guy here has got his shit wired high and tight.

 

I totally agree with everything you've said.

Please stick around this board.

[LooneyTunes 0]

i vote for deleting this thread.

[G O B 3,516]

I think that those who make long , uninformative and ill placed posts should have them moved to a section called BULLSHIT. LEO makes good sense. McUZI is usually right on, but guy TAKE YOUR MEDICATION (I like the BLUE pills!). And when you post-go back and edit -you can remove 2/3 of of the number of words, and add 10 times the impact! Let your truth make the point, leave the vindictive for the uninformable. Lets refrain from the 4 letter "D" word-NLFD is understood, and dosen't come up on a lexus/nezus or google search. Also all the "DD" talk is counter productive. The sheer number of whitetail taken in MD gives the lie to that!

The shotguns that earned the "DD" were never used for "sporting purpose" the way tha the Saiga's are. The mag cap. thing is ,as near as I can devine now a state by state and NOT a federal concern. Here in the people's republik of MD I can have any mag of 20 rd. or less capacity. (If there is a good, reasonably priced 10 rd. S-12 mag I will buy several!

 

 

G O B

[Shep 0]

I can't see deleting this thread. As McUzi pointed out the cats out of the bag already and there's some good info and well made points in here as well. What's done is done and it has already been read. If anything, I think that anyone reading these threads would find for the most part people here are very aware of their responsibilities as gun owners and we all try very hard to stay abreast of what the laws are that we have to abide by and comply with. We may not like it but we do try our best to stay legal. We aren't a bunch of criminals and lunatics.

 

We are everyday folks for the most part with a good healthy smattering of law enforcement and military personel, all of whom are gun owners and enthusiasts. It's terrible to see decent, law abiding people, exercising thier rights under the first and second amendments, so afraid of what their government may do that we begin censoring our words, thoughts and actions, on LEGAL issues because we are scared it may provoke them. What good are those rights then if we are too scared to exercise them? Are we a free people or not?

 

 

LEO welcome to the forum and please post some pics of your Galil style Saiga. Sounds very slick.

 

Motorcityman I'm still in for two of those 10 ROUND mags when you get them done. An update on any progress you have made in that area would be appreciated.

 

 

Shep

[motorcityman 0]

WOW, well the CAD drawings are nearly complete, once they are done the mold will be made (sometime within the next week) i will make 10 magazines for an initial testing, once testing is done i will then begin production. From the begining i chose to make a 10 round magazine simply because it was nice round even number, i never thought i would get the negative response that i have from some of you over capaciety, this next weekend i will be at the machine gun shoot in kentucky, i will have some discussions with some very knowledgeable gun guys and get their opinions on the matter i will update you all on monday. Joe

 

As far as weither or not to delete this thread on this forum, i respect any desicion made by those who control this forum..... I say keep it

[Shep 0]

That was quick. Thanks!

 

 

Shep

[Cobra 76 two 2,677]

I'm with shep and motorcityman himself. Anyone who reads this entire thread should see that we are all about doing what is right if we know what that is. They will also notice how we police each other and try to stay inbounds. We need to exercise our rights. What we don't need are a bunch chicken littles running around telling everyone the sky is falling and calling, writing letters to BATF wanting confirmation of it just so they can say I told you so.[And I'm not pointing any fingers, this shit happens daily and not just here on this forum]If they want to enact new legislation and reform gun laws it's going to happen like it or not. Best we can do as responsible gun owners is write tons of letters to senators, not BATF, and let them hear who we are. BATF doesn't need any help figuring out what to try and ban next. They have a lot of other stuff to do.

[detpat 0]

i'm in for 2 or 4 depending on price.

pat

[StarLynx 0]

Ditto on what Shep,Cobra,MotorCman & what SOME of the others said...

As far as DELETING the thread...hell....whats the use in having a Forum ??..Why not just make it all like some kind'a NET FLASH Paper...or disappearing ink??..I'm not afraid of whoever hearing/reading what I got ta say..Even tho I have recieved "Days off wo/pay...sometimes w/pay....for say'n things that HAD ta be said...Those kind of punishments are usually better recieved during Dove & Quail season....gives me more time ta hunt...

[motorcityman 0]

Opinions are opinions and facts are facts, some people have said that by me making 10rd mags that the atf will turn around and reclassify the saiga 12 as a destructive device, thats a total bunch of bullshit to even say, the atf is not going to reclassify a shotgun to a DD simply because of its magazine capaciety. Striker, streetsweeper, usas12's were around for years before they became DD's, i have recieved several pm's stating...."dont build them or else the atf blah blah blah" give me a break, i'm not some rookie when it comes to guns and laws, my laywer gave me the go ahead so i'm going to build them, but theres some steps and hurdles i have to pass before i market them, if anything i'll build a hundred for me and scrap the mold, but i would like to sell some of these at least to cover my expenses or hell make a few dollars while i'm at it. If you people think a measly 10rd clip is a disaster and is going to hurt our rights as gun owners then what do you people think of 100 rd beta mags and such, theres all kinds of companies marketing high cap mags out there, well heres one more for you all. Ok enough ranting for one night. back on topic... I've been thinking of what markings should be on the mag, USA, made in USA, US, God Bless America, saiga12, any ideas would be appricated, a buddy of mine told me i should write down the center of the mag instead of for "Law enforcement use only" to write "civilian use only" lol tell me what you guys think. God bless you all and God bless the United States of America, later.... Joe

[StarLynx 0]

KUDOS to you MCMAN!!!..Hi^5s to ya,Man!!...

[Wolverine 10,360]

motorcityman,

 

In response to your last question:

 

How about a legal disclaimer like "use at your own risk". Have you priced out product liability insurance as part of your costs of production and sales? If anything happens the legal wolves will have no problem tracking you down. Your product will be sold and resold beyond members of this forum. Maybe you can have initial buyers sign a waiver with every sale. Something for you and your lawyer to chew on.

 

Wolverine

[steve 1]

How about the usual disclaimer "For External Use Only"

[McUZI 1]

Opinions are opinions and facts are facts, some people have said that by me making 10rd mags that the atf will turn around and reclassify the saiga 12 as a destructive device, thats a total bunch of bullshit to even say, the atf is not going to reclassify a shotgun to a DD simply because of its magazine capaciety. Striker, streetsweeper, usas12's were around for years before they became DD's, i have recieved several pm's stating...."dont build them or else the atf blah blah blah" give me a break, i'm not some rookie when it comes to guns and laws, my laywer gave me the go ahead so i'm going to build them, but theres some steps and hurdles i have to pass before i market them, if anything i'll build a hundred for me and scrap the mold, but i would like to sell some of these at least to cover my expenses or hell make a few dollars while i'm at it. If you people think a measly 10rd clip is a disaster and is going to hurt our rights as gun owners then what do you people think of 100 rd beta mags and such, theres all kinds of companies marketing high cap mags out there, well heres one more for you all. Ok enough ranting for one night. back on topic... I've been thinking of what markings should be on the mag, USA, made in USA, US, God Bless America, saiga12, any ideas would be appricated, a buddy of mine told me i should write down the center of the mag instead of for "Law enforcement use only" to write "civilian use only" lol tell me what you guys think. God bless you all and God bless the United States of America, later.... Joe

 

ROCK ON!

You are the man... Don't let the idiots and their blathering get you down.

You are right here, and you will have a very marketable product.

 

(PS- "For Civilian Use Only" is fucking awesome )

Edited April 6, 2005 by McUZI

[pedal2alloy 206]

Motorcityman - Thanks for the KICKASS reply to all of the "sky is falling" posts!

 

Asking permission to do something legal is the same as giving up your freedom and increasing the power of the other side. And they are already too power hungry.

 

The chances of having a problem are slim. You are producing something that is not in any restricted catagory. I would even imagine that it would be legal in every state except NY. The climate is even better now than anytime in the last 10 years. Also, these liability suits against gun manufacturers are getting thrown out of court, the ruling being that a manufacturer acting in a lawful manner cannot be held liable for the act of a criminal. You could also look into setting up your company as an LLC.

 

As far as what to print on it, I think the "civilian use" one is great, but it might limit your abilitiy to sell it to the military or LE. Like the "not for commercial use" statement on homeowners tools.

 

Non of these are useable, but here are some funny ones:

 

"Use as needed"

"Keep out of reach of children"

"Parental guidence suggested"

"Now that's what I'm talkin' about"

"May cause side affects"

"Thats going to leave a mark"

"Make my day"

"Thats the stuff"

"Say no to drugs"

"Have a nice day"

[Wolverine 10,360]

Yep, but you would be surprised at $300 an hour for a decent attorney how much time and money it takes to get something dismissed. The legal dance is not cheap whether you're are innocent or there is no merit to someone's spurious lawsuit. Product liability insurance is a cost of doing business in the USA. While you may never encounter a problem it only takes one to clean you out. It would be wise to seek legal or CPA counsel on the benefits of incorporating to protect individual assets at the very least. I wouldn't leave my ass hanging out there for some one to ram.

 

Wolverine