Best home defence S12 set-up

[Chumbley 3]

Hi,

I'm a noob and would gratly appreciate hearing your arguements for the best S12 setup for HD. I'm looking for something that my wife can shoot as well (was thinking of 20 or 410 but think the stopping power of 12g is worth some acclimation on her part.) That being said, I know she's not going to spend a bunch of time at range, so I also want a shot pattern that will enhance her hit percentage (as well as my own). Thinking of using #4 buckshot. Figure even someone in armor will get shredded and also have a kid so want reduced penetration.

Plan to use a converted S12 with a 20r mag and pistol grip. Everything else is still up for grabs.

One idea I've had is to shorten the barrel and then add a poly choke. I don't plan to be shooting at anyone outside my house, but stranger things have happened.

Feel free to include your thoughts on stocks (folding/recoil reducing), lights, sights, etc.

Also, assume you have mucho dolares (which sadly I do not).

Lastly, I know that this general topic has come up before (have read some of it), but I was hoping to get your input given my particular situation.

[pyrostevo 2]

the IZ-109 12 ga with the 19 inch barrel, converted probably with a folding or collapsable stock depending on your preference. polychoke is excellent but you might rather a flash hider for indoors. That's all you need for a great hd gun.

[beer_18837 14]

and some sort of light. dont forget to identify your target before engaging. i have a surefire 6p next to mine that my sister got me for my b day. i love that light. i just did the conversion on mine. doing it yourself is alot of fun. o yeah instead of getting the 6p that is 90 bucks you can get a g2 and there 65 i think. aslo a great light

[DogMan 2,343]

Hi,

I'm a noob and would gratly appreciate hearing your arguements for the best S12 setup for HD. I'm looking for something that my wife can shoot as well (was thinking of 20 or 410 but think the stopping power of 12g is worth some acclimation on her part.) That being said, I know she's not going to spend a bunch of time at range, so I also want a shot pattern that will enhance her hit percentage (as well as my own). Thinking of using #4 buckshot. Figure even someone in armor will get shredded and also have a kid so want reduced penetration.

Plan to use a converted S12 with a 20r mag and pistol grip. Everything else is still up for grabs.

One idea I've had is to shorten the barrel and then add a poly choke. I don't plan to be shooting at anyone outside my house, but stranger things have happened.

Feel free to include your thoughts on stocks (folding/recoil reducing), lights, sights, etc.

Also, assume you have mucho dolares (which sadly I do not).

Lastly, I know that this general topic has come up before (have read some of it), but I was hoping to get your input given my particular situation.

 

Keep it simple. And unless you really can't afford at least one Russian 8 rd mag then forget about the 20 rd drum (not mag). You don't need all that weight and bulk for HD especially if your wife is going to be using it. Lights- get a bright one with a rock solid mount and then shoot the weapon a whole bunch of times with the light mounted so you'll know if it's going to fly off (they do). You will do a lot better getting her to practice her aim than relying on shot patterns to enhance hit percentage. At close range especially that is a non issue for all intents and purposes.

Teach your kid what to do to protect him or herself when things are happening in the house that are not right, like getting under the bed or whatever.

[Loveless 7]

I gotta start with: Everyone, please don't get mad at me for being honest with opinions that many people here may disagree with... I am respectful and I hope all of you will be. I'm happy to have people disagree, it wouldn't be interesting if everyone said the same thing but there's no need to get pissed at me for respectfully thinking something against the grain...

 

I LOVE my Saiga!! I personally think you should own one if at all interested and enjoy the hell out of it! I recommend the Saiga to many people. That said, Saiga for home defense in your unique situation MIGHT not be the best idea. I like Chocolate Ice Cream but a lot of people want a different flavor, some are even allergic to Chocolate! Everyone is different, when the wife is included, it is important to consider all variables with either of you as the potential shooter.

 

Maybe a 9mm full of hollowpoints in your strong hand with a good flashlight in your off hand held out away from your chest is right for you. Maybe a different handgun or rifle but it is possible that the Saiga isn't right for you (and or your wife). I love the 1911 type, but it's not for everyone. I don't feel I can comfortably recommend that you use a tool for something as important as defending your life and the lives of your family without helping you at least consider other options and eliminate them altogether just in case you haven't.

 

When in the dark it is important as hell to identify your target... but in home defense if someone is there to do you harm, if you have a shotgun with a mounted light walking around a corner and the attacker has a .45 while hiding in a dark area, he's going to see your light and he may shoot at it. He'll see your light beam down the hall before you can find him. It is a beacon shining around giving away your position. Some people I know use night vision, some use a hand gun with a loose LED flashlight in their off hand held away from the body. If the criminal shoots at the light their hit percentage goes down. They'd have to be a terrible shot to hit anything other than a hand or arm if aiming their firearm at the light. They may not know that your light is on a shotgun but if you're an unarmed ignorant gun control supporter (I know YOU aren't) you may be holding a flashlight in front of you. Bottom line: bad guys are called BAD guys for a reason and them knowing where you are while you don't know where they are is just plain scary. If you have tactical experience and are going after the jackass that chose to bust into your place and can safely and quickly clear rooms than great! Enjoy the light, it should be bright and durable. Can your wife clear the room and fire on a suspect with out hesitation if she sees a weapon being raised at her? If she, or you even, yells "I have a gun and will use it if you don't leave!" and the bastard doesn't run away piddling in his pants... Then you fire a warning shot and the sound still doesn't scare them off, they have no value on life and may be high on PCP and/or Meth or many other narcotics and he may have the intent of knocking you off to steal stuff to sell for more drugs. It's not likely and I hope you never have to be in any of these situations but if you find yourself with an intruder in your house and you have time to get to a firearm, it doesn't matter what it is in MOST situations as long as it is reliable and easy to operate.

 

All light issues aside, even though I'm sure we'll hear from people that animately disagree with me, in a home your wife and possibly even yourself may benefit from a lightweight, easy to use and handle hand gun that can tuck under a mattress or in a bedside drawer or in a BioVault near the bed... You gotta look at your situation. If you want a Saiga and only a Saiga and home defense isn't a worry but an excuse or a great additional benefit, then sweet! I really do hope you love it and it works great for you. I'm not a dick trying to rain on your parade about wanting to have a Saiga. I'm the opposite. Trying to help with your home defense and I'd love you to have the coolest firearm I've ever held. I hope, if the Saiga is right for you, you want it even more now after reading my post.

 

Good luck to you man! The people on here are 99.9% awesome and you'll have all the help you can handle from the great members here!

[DogMan 2,343]

I gotta start with: Everyone, please don't get mad at me for being honest with opinions that many people here may disagree with... I am respectful and I hope all of you will be. I'm happy to have people disagree, it wouldn't be interesting if everyone said the same thing but there's no need to get pissed at me for respectfully thinking something against the grain...

 

I LOVE my Saiga!! I personally think you should own one if at all interested and enjoy the hell out of it! I recommend the Saiga to many people. That said, Saiga for home defense in your unique situation MIGHT not be the best idea. I like Chocolate Ice Cream but a lot of people want a different flavor, some are even allergic to Chocolate! Everyone is different, when the wife is included, it is important to consider all variables with either of you as the potential shooter.

 

Maybe a 9mm full of hollowpoints in your strong hand with a good flashlight in your off hand held out away from your chest is right for you. Maybe a different handgun or rifle but it is possible that the Saiga isn't right for you (and or your wife). I love the 1911 type, but it's not for everyone. I don't feel I can comfortably recommend that you use a tool for something as important as defending your life and the lives of your family without helping you at least consider other options and eliminate them altogether just in case you haven't.

 

When in the dark it is important as hell to identify your target... but in home defense if someone is there to do you harm, if you have a shotgun with a mounted light walking around a corner and the attacker has a .45 while hiding in a dark area, he's going to see your light and he may shoot at it. He'll see your light beam down the hall before you can find him. It is a beacon shining around giving away your position. Some people I know use night vision, some use a hand gun with a loose LED flashlight in their off hand held away from the body. If the criminal shoots at the light their hit percentage goes down. They'd have to be a terrible shot to hit anything other than a hand or arm if aiming their firearm at the light. They may not know that your light is on a shotgun but if you're an unarmed ignorant gun control supporter (I know YOU aren't) you may be holding a flashlight in front of you. Bottom line: bad guys are called BAD guys for a reason and them knowing where you are while you don't know where they are is just plain scary. If you have tactical experience and are going after the jackass that chose to bust into your place and can safely and quickly clear rooms than great! Enjoy the light, it should be bright and durable. Can your wife clear the room and fire on a suspect with out hesitation if she sees a weapon being raised at her? If she, or you even, yells "I have a gun and will use it if you don't leave!" and the bastard doesn't run away piddling in his pants... Then you fire a warning shot and the sound still doesn't scare them off, they have no value on life and may be high on PCP and/or Meth or many other narcotics and he may have the intent of knocking you off to steal stuff to sell for more drugs. It's not likely and I hope you never have to be in any of these situations but if you find yourself with an intruder in your house and you have time to get to a firearm, it doesn't matter what it is in MOST situations as long as it is reliable and easy to operate.

 

All light issues aside, even though I'm sure we'll hear from people that animately disagree with me, in a home your wife and possibly even yourself may benefit from a lightweight, easy to use and handle hand gun that can tuck under a mattress or in a bedside drawer or in a BioVault near the bed... You gotta look at your situation. If you want a Saiga and only a Saiga and home defense isn't a worry but an excuse or a great additional benefit, then sweet! I really do hope you love it and it works great for you. I'm not a dick trying to rain on your parade about wanting to have a Saiga. I'm the opposite. Trying to help with your home defense and I'd love you to have the coolest firearm I've ever held. I hope, if the Saiga is right for you, you want it even more now after reading my post.

 

Good luck to you man! The people on here are 99.9% awesome and you'll have all the help you can handle from the great members here!

 

I wouldn't disagree with any of that advise. I would never take the position that an S12 is a "one size fits all" firearm by any means. It sounded like the OP had made up his mind about a weapon so I made my comments under that assumption. You are right about tactics being an important part of the equation. I don't have children or anyone else in another room that I have worry about so if I hear someone in my house I have no problem staying put behind the bed with the S12 trained on the door while I call for reinforcements. People with kids of course may not be comfortable with that and have to put themselves in harms way more than me. Having said that, nobody is going to get in my house, or even inside my fence for that matter, without me knowing it because "Jake" hears everything and lets me know when he does. You can't beat a dog for an early warning system. And if the bad guy kills my dog then he is going to die very shortly or I am going to die trying to kill him. Some people might think that is crazy but my dog would do the same for me and those are my values and that's not going to change. OK, I'm babbling now. My point is that every situation is different and tactics need to be thought out ahead of time, with the gun itself being only one part of that.

[Elkhound 91]

My take on using a shotgun (any make of shotgun) for home defense is simple, perhaps naive, but simple. I know the lay out of my house. Any intruder will be at a disadvantage from that point of view. I will be defending a position, not looking for him. We have upstairs bedrooms. A bad guy would have to come down the hall way to get to us. They can have the bottom floor - it is a "Give Away" and they can stay down their until the police arrive, I'm not going down there after them.

 

Next, the light I have on my 870 is 80 lumens of LED light. The light I have on my Saiga S-12 is 700 lumens of LED light in either basic or strobe mode. The purpose of those lights ---- blind and disorient, and ID the threat. I believe that if I take away the bad guys night vision with such a bright light, he will have a hard time hitting me before I can assess his threat level and react.

 

So, my situation may be different, I will not be looking around corners. I will be crouched to the side of the hall, ready to illuminate or eliminate the threat.

 

WJ

[hobbyshooter 59]

I also want a shot pattern that will enhance her hit percentage (as well as my own).

You can throw that idea out the window. Shot spread occurs over distance. Most in-home shot distances are going to be less than 7 yards, and probably more like 3 yards. The only way to ensure the best proficiency with a firearm is to practice shooting/working it under all conditions you can consider. If your wife only handles this gun twice (once when you familiarize her with it, and once again when she needs to defend), she won't remember where the safety lever is, where the charge handle is, or what either of them does. Even in a completely controlled enviroment my wife wouldn't be able to grab my saigas and defend herself with it. That's simply her choice. We've discussed it, I've expressed how I wish she would spend time familiarizing herself with it along with everything else we own. But, for her the revolver makes the most sense.

 

Thinking of using #4 buckshot. Figure even someone in armor will get shredded and also have a kid so want reduced penetration.

4 buck has a high pellet count, but they are small diameter. IMO 4 buck is a great home defense round and I'd take it over 00 buck, but it's not going to do miracles. Also keep in mind, 4 buck with its "reduced penetration" is still very likely to penetrate through all of your interior walls from one end of your house to the other unless pellets hit studs.

 

For home defense it is extremely important to know where your "friendlies" are. Even if you simply graze your child with a flyer pellet, that event will likely destroy your marriage and your wife will force you to get rid of the gun.

 

Plan to use a converted S12 with a 20r mag and pistol grip. Everything else is still up for grabs.

One idea I've had is to shorten the barrel and then add a poly choke. assume you have mucho dolares (which sadly I do not)

If you are shy on money just leave the barrel alone. For a home defense gun I'd say you won't need any kind of choke.

[JOCELLO15 2]

MY OPINION FOR WHAT ITS WORTH WHEN SOMEONE BREAKS IN UR HOUSE U DONT WANT TO BE FUMBALING AROUND WITH MAGS AND FLASHLIGHTS ECT.WHEN YOUR ADRENALINE IS RUNNING YOU HAVE ABOUT THE SAME MOTOR FUNCTION AS IF YOU HAD A GOOD BEER BUZZ GOING....SO MY SETUP IS A MOSSBERG 500 PISTOLGRIP SHOTGUN LOADED WITH 00 BUCK ITS SMALL ENOUGH TO GO AROUND CORNERS AND NOT GET CAUGHT UP ON EVERYTHING AND I CAN KEEP IT LOADED WITH EIGHT SHELLS WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT THE SHELLS BEING DAMAGED LIKE U DO WHEN U KEEP A SAIGA LOADED..THAT IN MIND I LOVE MY SAIGA 12 DEARLY AND IT IS MY SHIT HITS THE FAN GUN IF ANYTHING REALLY MESSED UP HAPENS THEN SHE COMES OUT BUT FOR HD IT REALLY IS NOT PRACTICAL LIKE LOVELESS SAID

[railman1 0]

There seems to be a tendency when the "best gun for home defense" question is asked to answer "either/or." There is no one perfect home defense gun. Just like concealed carry, everything is a compromise. My son lives in a two story home with basement..Is a 45 or a 12 gauge in the bedroom going to do his wife any good if she is doing laundry in the basement? (They have no children in the home yet, so their solution is at least one gun on each floor stashed out of sight.) I live in a single level, small home... so my needs are different than his..or yours.

 

I have hunted with rifles and shotguns since I was eight years old...I was a grown man before I found out why it was so hard for me to hit anything with a handgun...Im left handed, but right eye dominant. So I learned to shoot a handgun right handed. More compromise.

 

I did two tours in Nam, but I can assure you that if someone kicks my door down at 3 am, my heart rate will be through the ceiling. I will be scared, confused, and my reactions will be slower....That is why policemen and soldiers train doing the same thing over and over...so they react in a certain way in certain situations in SPITE of the fear.

 

For some reason our "macho image" tends to assume that if we are home WE will be the one responding to an immediate threat. What if your in the shower when that moment comes?..What if you have a broken arm? That is why we need to "encourage" our spouses to not only become familiar with all our home defense weapons, but also become proficient with them.

 

Sorry to be so "wordy", but this subject is serious business.

 

A $75 single barrel 20 gauge beside the bed is a hell of a lot better than the $900 12 gauge "mega blaster", we dream about...but cant afford yet. Good luck with your decision.

[mgconnor13 206]

what you use is not as important as having a plan, practicing it and being confident. I've got a lot of time training in CQB so I feel comfortable fighting in a building/house with just about any weapon. I prefer shotguns and SMGs for close range fighting. Pistol are back up weapons if your primary weapon goes down or runs our of ammo. Best thing to do for your S-12 is to set it up so it's comfortable for you and VERY easy to use. A weapon mounted light is good thing to have and can be an be used as a aiming devise at night at close ranges. I like having a light on my gun so I can look into dark areas and keep my weapon on target in case something is in that shadow. Practice reflexive shooting a lot. start slow and make sure you work on your form not speed first. you don't need to split hairs at 50 yards, you just need to put lead center mass at what ever the longest possible shot in your house would be. At CQB ranges you don't even need to use sights so don't worry about having ghost rings and all that. Keep it simple, have a plan and rehearse it with your family a lot. You don't need to have a tacticool gun to defend your home so save your money.

 

that said I have a S-12 with a light on it, a 870 with a light and a 1911 I keep ready to go in my house.

[billyjoebob 10]

If you are looking for an HD gun that your wife can use with little regular practice, go with a remington 870 with reduced recoil loads.

 

The S-12 is a phenomenal platform, but as previously stated...it's not for everyone. It requires work and customization to get it to a level of high reliability, and the user has to be able to quickly respond if there is a FTF or FTE (which your wife may not be able to do with any speed).

 

A pump 870 express is cheap, very reliable, eats everything, and can hold 8 rounds (which is hopefully all you'll need). In addition, you can use low recoil LE rounds, which don't always work so well in a S-12 but are great for novice shooters acting under extreme stress.

 

YMMV

[Ragnar 10]

Two guns and two people who have trained together, even a little, are way better than one man and one gun. That said, get your wife a weapon she can call her own.

 

A dog(s) in the house AND a dog(s) in yard is best. Poison train the dog in yard; protection train the dog in the house.

 

Most doors are one-kick doors. At a minimum, replace the 3/4 " brass screws in you door hinges with 4" stainless screws. Better still, get this: http://www.djarmor.com/

 

Once you understand how easy it is for a competent operator to defeat an inside-the-house ambush in complete darkness you will want to always have 1) an off-hand light when you clear a building 2)some ambient light at all times when defending a room at night. Otherwise, you are screwed.

 

And as I have said before here, never open the door for anyone other than friend or family. Get an intercom for the front door.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[Chumbley 3]

Thanks for all the thoughts.

 

First off I will freely admit to simply wanting a Saiga. Looks incredibly fun to shoot and I like to have projects (ie making it run reliably - which I understand can be done?)

 

Chances are that's all I'd ever do with the gun, however the reason I'm looking so intently at THIS gun is the fact that it seems like an excellent choice for HD.

 

Is 20 rounds overkill? Well, yes, if your bad guy goes down after 2, but frankly for me more is merrier. I wouldn't want to take a gun in this configuration on a hike, but I don't think even my wife would mind carrying the extra weight around the house in an emergency. I already have a pistol that lives in the safe at all times for my wife, and ideally this would become a holstered backup to a long gun. I'd love to get her to the range more often, I just know it's not going to be as often as I go.

 

I'm a cop and carry an 870 and a colt AR-15 in my vehicle. I love both guns, especially the AR, and these are locked in my closet during my off time, but neither suits my needs: AR for overpenetration and 870 for difficulty of use (for my wife) and low round count. Believe me, having studied many gunfights between bad guys and cops, it's easy to miss 6 times, and an 870 is not easy to reload under stress. Seems less easy to miss 20 times.

 

I've seen a bunch of SBSs around here. Anyone want to argue for a shorty?

 

Sounds like #4 buck may be still a bit heavy. What is the most effective load the would penetrate, say, 2 sheets of drywall before losing steam? Can I make an S12 shoot this load reliably? If not I may be back to the drawing board.

[Ragnar 10]

Keep a 12 rnd of 00 buck in the S12 w/ bolt held open, and an 8 rnd of stainless steel AP slugs coupled to it.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[mgconnor13 206]

any round that has 8" of penetration or more in flesh will have a lot of penetration in sheet rock. There's no magic bullet out there at only penetrates tissue but never goes through sheet rock. Pump guns are great tools and very cost effective. I keep a S-12 handy because of the high capacity and because it's semi-auto. Semi auto are good because the only controls i need to manipulate is the safety and trigger, that and I can shoot a semi auto a lot faster then a pump gun. Lots of projectiles fired in very rapid succession is a very good thing in my book, especially when my target is spotted lighted by a very bright light.,

[hobbyshooter 59]

any round that has 8" of penetration or more in flesh will have a lot of penetration in sheet rock. There's no magic bullet out there at only penetrates tissue but never goes through sheet rock.

 

Agreed. Any projectile that is considered adequate for personal defense can go through every interior wall of most houses and still kill a person. They why an awareness of your backdrop is so important.

 

Both 4 buck and 1 buck are excellent home/personal defense rounds.

[billyjoebob 10]

I'm a cop and carry an 870 and a colt AR-15 in my vehicle. I love both guns, especially the AR, and these are locked in my closet during my off time, but neither suits my needs: AR for overpenetration and 870 for difficulty of use (for my wife) and low round count. Believe me, having studied many gunfights between bad guys and cops, it's easy to miss 6 times, and an 870 is not easy to reload under stress. Seems less easy to miss 20 times.

 

I have to disagree with your assessment. I've been a cop here in NY for almost 20 years, and don't see anyone needing 20 shotgun rounds to repel all but the worst of home invasions.

 

Gunfights that happen outdoors generally involve more of a spray-and-pray mentality. Also, rounds fired into a house (drive-by's, etc) tend to involve many rounds and few (if any) hits.

 

In my experience, interior gunfights involve far fewer rounds overall. Confined spaces, close distances, and limited entry and egress routes cause a situation where fewer rounds are usually fired in total. Couple that with the devestating effect of a 12-gauge round, and the fact that you and your wife know the layout of your house better than any invader, and she should be fine with a simple and reliable 870.

 

Another consideration is how heavy an S-12 will be with a fully loaded 20 round drum. For an inexperienced shooter, I can't see this as a viable option.

 

I've been the subject of death threats at various times throughout my career, and have a wife similar to yours (she won't train). There's an 870 loaded up in the bedroom, and I've left her with simple instructions...if anything happens, barricade yourself into a room with the kids, repel the attack, call for help, and wait for the uniformed officers to show up. Less ammo needed, less chance of overpenitration (and friendly casualties), and much easier for her to do than preforming a sweep of the house looking for the bad guys. If I happen to be home if god-forbid bad things happen...then the fun will begin

 

Anyway...welcom to the forum. Take my thoughts for what they're worth and it's nice to see another brother-in-blue here

[Ragnar 10]

 

Then you fire a warning shot and the sound still doesn't scare them off...

 

I appreciate much of what you say, however, I would like to point out that that warning shots are not part of any training I know of, probably for several good reasons:

 

One fire's a weapon to stop a threat; if you want to warn them use verbal commands.

 

One should train to fire at center mass, not to intentionally miss.

 

One is responsible for all rounds leaving the weapon and passing through the neighbor's kitchen, and the neighbor's kid, even if it was only a warning shot.

 

Etc.

Edited March 8, 2010 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[DogMan 2,343]

Then you fire a warning shot and the sound still doesn't scare them off...

 

I appreciate much of what you say, however, I would like to point out that that warning shots are not part of any training I know of, probably for several good reasons:

 

One fire's a weapon to stop a threat; if you want to warn them use verbal commands.

 

One should train to fire at center mass, not to intentionally miss.

 

One is responsible for all rounds leaving the weapon and passing through the neighbor's kitchen, and the neighbor's kid, even if it was only a warning shot.

 

Etc.

 

I don't want to start a shitstorm on this subject because this is one that I've had before and I know I'm going to change nobody's mind, and vice versa. I totally understand all the logic and reasoning behind the "no warning shot" mantra. For the most part it's all perfectly valid logic. But I would never say never on that or just about anything else. For me, I'm keeping that option open for that rare occasion when it might be precisely the right thing to do at the time. I'll cite you an example of a situation that came up a few years ago when an old man was surrounded by a group of young thugs intent on robbing him. Even after pulling his gun and telling them he would shoot, they obviously didn't believe him and they did not back off. He did not want to shoot an unarmed kid or kids for obvious reasons, but he could easily be overpowered and beaten or killed with his own gun. He fired a shot into the ground and it had exactly the effect he hoped it would. They ran. Sure, if he was in fear of his life he could have shot one or more of them but I don't have to tell anyone here what he would have been in for then. I think this was a good outcome for him.

[stiletto raggio 20]

I would recommend a Saiga .410 with a collapsible stock (so it will properly fit everyone in the family) and a 15 round mag of Winchester 5 pellet 000 buck. A railed forend for mounting a flashlight may be useful, but there are other ways to del with the mounting issue. While I love the S-12, I would not put a complicated, heavy and high-recoiling wepon in the hands of someone who is not experienced and appropriately trained. The S-.410 has very, very little recoil (less than even small centerfire rifles) and is the lightest fo the Saiga shotguns. That said, I think WJ's "wait and see" approach is the best so long as your floorplan makes it practical, and it mitigates weight issues.

 

As for a handgun, I would not recommend a handgun for home defense unless the user (and by that I mean all potential users) is well-trained, familiar and comfortable with combat pistol shooting. Not target shooting, but rapid-fire shooting from a variety of positions. Handguns are by far the most difficult weapon system to become effective with and they require extensive training, practice and familiarization to be as effective as another weapon even within the handgun's limited effective range.

[DeMilled 5]

My suggestions for a home defence S-12 are....

 

 

Start with an 18" S-12

 

Convert to the origional configuration with a pistol grip.

I think it would be ideal to go to a gun show and handle every style grip on the market and choose what you like.

I like this one http://store.carolin...r-Pistol/Detail

 

Pick out a nice comfy stock.

The NATO length stock with a limb saver butt pad would work nice and would work well for the "tucked under the arm" maneuver, if you need to roll like that.

http://store.carolin...AR-Stock/Detail

 

Use a forearm that allows you to mount a light on it.

I like this one http://store.carolin...dsh-rail/Detail

 

Put a bright ass light on the forearm.

 

I also like a foregrip. A foregrip would be good for the aforementioned "tucked under the arm" maneuver

http://store.carolin...CAL-GRIP/Detail

 

Put a bayonet on there. Bayonets kick ass

Edited March 8, 2010 by DeMilled

[RandyC 0]

The best S12 for home defense is the S12 you happen to have avaliable at the moment, wether it be totally stock with a 5rnd mag or the best of the best S12 with all the attachments you would ever need. All that matters is you have a gun that will go bang when you need it to

[Loveless 7]

 

I appreciate much of what you say, however, I would like to point out that that warning shots are not part of any training I know of, probably for several good reasons:

 

One fire's a weapon to stop a threat; if you want to warn them use verbal commands.

 

One should train to fire at center mass, not to intentionally miss.

 

One is responsible for all rounds leaving the weapon and passing through the neighbor's kitchen, and the neighbor's kid, even if it was only a warning shot.

 

Etc.

 

RD,

Dogman wrote one of many situations where it could be very useful to prove you have a firearm without taking a life or risking innocent bystanders harm. You should always try to know your target and what's beyond it. In my house, I can think of many situations where firing a round into my floor would be worthwhile. I would have to repair the floor but my smart and experienced dad told me "It'll cost you money to repair this floor, but a life is priceless." Obviously it's not for everyone, like if you lived on a second floor with people beneath you. I in NO means suggest firing a shot near an intruder intentionally missing him. If that's the type of warning shot you were thinking of, like in the movies. My suggestion was that some of the small number of people that won't leave when you tell them you have a firearm and WILL shoot them (yes, it happens all too often unfortunately) may reconsider and leave when they hear a 12 gauge shell fired, into a floor or somewhere safe and not harming friendlies obviously. It just takes a little bit of planning to think what you would do if isht hit the fan. I recommend you (everyone) plan for the worst and hope for the best. At risk of sounding cliche as all hell, always be prepared. I think if you are verbally warning intruders, teens or not, and they don't listen to you... the next step being a shot fired at center mass to stop the threat is... well, I hope I misunderstood that part of your post. Thanks for the response though! I think this kind of discussion is perfect because it gets us all talking, thinking and planning. One of the most important things during an emergency is knowing what to do from being well prepared. Take care and I wish you all the best of luck if any of us are in the position where any of this is relevant.

-Loveless

[Ragnar 10]

 

I appreciate much of what you say, however, I would like to point out that that warning shots are not part of any training I know of, probably for several good reasons:

 

One fire's a weapon to stop a threat; if you want to warn them use verbal commands.

 

One should train to fire at center mass, not to intentionally miss.

 

One is responsible for all rounds leaving the weapon and passing through the neighbor's kitchen, and the neighbor's kid, even if it was only a warning shot.

 

Etc.

 

...It just takes a little bit of planning to think what you would do if isht hit the fan. I recommend you (everyone) plan for the worst and hope for the best. At risk of sounding cliche as all hell, always be prepared. I think if you are verbally warning intruders, teens or not, and they don't listen to you... the next step being a shot fired at center mass to stop the threat is... well, I hope I misunderstood that part of your post... -Loveless

 

Considering that your life is probably on the line, I don't think a little bit of planning to think what one should do is really adequate in this situation.

 

One old adage says to spend as much, or more, money on the optic as on the rifle. I also believe one should spend as much, or more, money on professional training as on one's weapon. If it is a tactical weapon intended for use against people, by your wife, then maybe 10x more money on training is the ticket.

 

I am amazed how much my understanding and beliefs (and other's too) change after taking a good tactical weapons course taught by an experienced professional. If it is a really good course, you might also better understand how differently a jury will view your intended actions, as well as the likely consequences to you and your loved ones.

 

Plus, it is a hell of a lot more fun than about anything else one might want to do on a weekend.

 

-Peace Brother

Edited March 9, 2010 by Ragnar Danneskjöld

[Steppe Sweeper 22]

Hi,

I'm a noob and would gratly appreciate hearing your arguements for the best S12 setup for HD. I'm looking for something that my wife can shoot as well (was thinking of 20 or 410 but think the stopping power of 12g is worth some acclimation on her part.)

 

IMO you'd be right about the .410 (which is no joke, but not in league with what made shotguns reknowned manstoppers).

20 gauge though, will do anything a 12 will in a defensive context. Bear in mind, "Tactical" and "Defense" 12 ga. buck and slug loads are usually watered down. Standard 20 Gauge 3 Buck and slugs perform the same. IMO, even for a big guys who shoot alot, a purely HD shotgun might just as well be 20 ga.

 

I could see the S-12 being the HD peice for someone who runs all Kalashnikov(like myself), but compared to most other shotguns (even semi's), well, I think KISS is what you want in a HD shotgun, right down to a bead sight.

Something about defending in one's own home, kinda always made me want absolute reliability-manual actions (eg, DA revolver in .44 Spl or .45ACP, bare bones 18" pump 12 or 20, maybe a 16" lever in .357). Have since gotten over that but when you say newb it just reminded me how to some (not saying you in particular) new to firearms see something that looks like it would be good at killing and assume it the best choice for personal defense. I am a fan of the 1911, it is the only pistol I shoot really well, but prefer the simplicity of a Glock if it came down to a reactive, defensive need.

Many reasons to own a Saiga but in my book something like a Mossberg 500 Persuader with nothing added, is more right on as a intruder sweeper than a Wilson Combat Standard model "purpose built" for the job at top dollar. I'll be using my S-12 for HD but that is because the operation is so ingrained from using similar rifles, probably more second nature familiarity than running a simple pumpgun (loading, malfunction clearing, etc)

 

Just my thoughts. Definately worth owning a Saiga 12 and they aren't just range toys, but for one you and the old lady can both count on when it matters go 870 Express Synthetic 7 shot 20 ga. Throw a Knoxx on, and probably would feel like a .410

[mgconnor13 206]

What ever weapon you choose to use make sure you spend time practicing with it. There are plenty of drills you can do with out firing rounds to practice. Practice, practice practice! The military has a ton of manuals out there on marksmanship and close quarters fighting if you want to read up on that an incorporate those tactics into your home defense plan. Field manuals are public documents and can be down loaded from the internet. With some practice and a good understanding of the principles involved in shooting and gun fighting you can become very proficient with your weapon. Being trained, practiced and confident in your skills and weapons with take you along way when coupled with a well laid out and rehearsed plan. If you can get to some classes go for it. I had been carrying a gun for a living for a couple years and I learned a ton about the legal aspect of a shooting when I look the concealed carry class for NC. Training is one of the best investments you can make.

[Ragnar 10]

"Training is one of the best investments you can make." -Rusty Truck

 

I agree. To that end:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=52084

[MT Predator 2,294]

I really hate when this type of topic comes up and everyone chimes in with advice concerning the well being of you and your family which could result in very bad things. Beware of all the COD gamers and mall ninjas on the internet providing advice on this matter. That being said, you need to pick an appropriate weapon and train, train, train with it so you are proficient with reloads, clearing malfunctions, and getting it back into the fight. Go to a professional and get your wife to take a pistol/carbine/shotgun class with you. Marksmanship is a perishable skill, you need to shoot a lot, and often to keep that edge. I agree with the above advice on having a plan. A firearm in the safe two rooms away is not going to help you out if an armed intruder kicks your door in. We get a lot of that around here so I have a couple of strategically placed pistol vaults that I can access quickly and use them to fight my way to my long guns if need be. Know your local laws regarding self defense with a firearm whether it is inside your home or out in the lawn. To add to this, the weapon needs to be reliable in a gunfight. Don't pick an S-12 because it looks cool and scary as your go-to-gun. Make sure it is reliable and doesn't have those pesky problems like being under gassed, etc. As far as the pistol vs rifle vs shotgun debate goes, I was taught professionally by civilian and military trainers that a pistol is a backup when the long gun goes down and to use it to acquire another long gun if necessary. Which long gun you choose is up to more debate but it's your choice. Make sure it is a big enough caliber to put a man down and you can operate it proficiently.

[KrisFox 69]

Wake up your significant other, get out of bed and grab your weapon and cellphone.

 

Cover your significant other on the way to the kids room.

 

Cover the bedroom door as they call the police and manage the kids.

 

 

 

Have a plan, practice it.

Kids that come running to your room due to a "scary noise" are a good thing. Especially if you are a heavy sleeper.

Sharing a wall with the kids is better than having them at the end of the hall or *shudder* on another floor.

Having a dog can help, if they do more than lick unannounced visitors.

I could care less what your home defense weapon is, as long as you feel your significant other and you are capable of defending your family with it.

If your kids are a real handful, it may take the stronger of the two of you to manage them. Prepare for this.