Home defense S12?

[309MI 4]

I dont meant to double-post,but I'll link previous post,in the hopes it will be seen one place or the other:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=58040

 

Short story-I am getting an S12 in the next day or so,purely for home defense use. It will be unmodified for the time being.

I plan to acquire the 10 or 12 round mags the store has for it-(not sure what make,yet-and not,at this time concerned with 992,etc.)

With above in mind- advice? anything I need to know? and what suggestions for most-reliable/most effective COMBAT buckshot rounds? (wont be using this for ducks targets or competitions)

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I dont meant to double-post,but I'll link previous post,in the hopes it will be seen one place or the other:

 

http://forum.saiga-12.com/index.php?showtopic=58040

 

Short story-I am getting an S12 in the next day or so,purely for home defense use. It will be unmodified for the time being.

I plan to acquire the 10 or 12 round mags the store has for it-(not sure what make,yet-and not,at this time concerned with 992,etc.)

With above in mind- advice? anything I need to know? and what suggestions for most-reliable/most effective COMBAT buckshot rounds? (wont be using this for ducks targets or competitions)

 

0 Buck and 00 Buck.

 

BUT, you WILL need to go out and run quite a few rounds of buckshot or slugs through it before you depend on it for home defense, trust me, I thought I had a vodka special for the first 200 rounds...

 

You aren't concerned with 922r? That's funny, it's concerned with you...

[wired 27]

I'm not concerned with 922r either. It just happens that The US parts needed to make the count are few and they don't cost any more. 922r is a joke. Its aimed at importers and manufacturers. As far as anyone can tell in 21 years NO ONE HAS EVER BEEN convicted of 922r violations. Toothless tiger.

 

#4 bucksot . 3 inch shells. Screw 2 3/4 for HD.

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I don't want to be the first...

[Frosty 9]

 

 

You aren't concerned with 922r? That's funny, it's concerned with you...

 

Be safe and keep needless questions from being asked.

 

00 buck will reach through walls, furniture, cabinets and such to get at the bastard in your house. Anything lighter and you can't get to them. If you live in an apartment then maybe the #4 buck.

 

Yes, 922 R is a JOKE. But just to be safe and stay with in the law and you will have peace of mind when you need it.

 

Frosty

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

So you guys prefer something like this:

http://www.basspro.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10151_-1_10001_10215215_425004000_425000000_425004000_425-4-0

 

Over this:

 

http://www.dealerease.net/catalog/product.asp?ret_id=885434&pid=4731

 

Ok, it's your choice...

 

I'm not touting anyone's choice of brand, I use Remington and Federal but that's just personal preference because I've never had a problem with it...

[309MI 4]

I dont have a particular brand preference or anything. I've used Winchester in .410 for the tons of rattlesnakes and cottonmouths I get around here.but that's about it.

My main question is,are there any particular rounds or types of rounds,that are know-via you guy's experiences-to function reliably in a stock/not modified S12?

 

The funds for additional items/mods etc, just arent there yet. Im having to get this thing pronto-quick,for an immediate/current situation that is on-going.This isnt a casual/toy/sporting purchase with some extra cash laying about. My main needs for this thing will be to purchase it,get it home,load it,and be ready to rock immediately,If needed.

 

As much as I'd like to eventually trick it out with all the goodies,and have it comply with obscure/rarely-enforced laws,there simply is not the time or funding to do so right now.Once the tactical situation has calmed down-one way or the other-I'll start saving up for goodies for her. Other funds are having to be expended on beefing up my property,installing camera/alarm/security systems,and improving lighting on the grounds. I dont/wont have the luxury of waiting 1/2 hour or more for cops to respond to anything going on out here. Once rounds start flying,I'm on my own against up to as many as 6 known persons-all armed-who've shown zero reluctance to open fire,and to whom the cops have shown zero interest in arresting until someone dies because of them.....dogs dont seem to count,as far as LE are concerned...

[msrdiver 42]

Know your environment then decide on the round. I live in a brick, thick brick, home so I'm not worried about shooting through my walls and into the neighbors house.

 

If spooked into defending myself, I would want the first round to open up fast and spread wide. The follow up shot can be anything to your liking.

 

I like the 2 3/4" sellier and bellot 4 buck round. The twenty-seven .25 caliber pellets pattern wide at 25 feet when shot out of a 19" bbl. At this distance all pellets were on a sheet of notebook paper. Why did I choose notebook paper? Pin a sheet to your chest and you'll have your answer.

 

The next round could be any brand of 1 Buck or OO. I prefer 1 Buck since the count is usually 12-15 pellets as compared to 9 pellets of OO. A larger trauma area is thus created.

 

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I dont have a particular brand preference or anything. I've used Winchester in .410 for the tons of rattlesnakes and cottonmouths I get around here.but that's about it.

My main question is,are there any particular rounds or types of rounds,that are know-via you guy's experiences-to function reliably in a stock/not modified S12?

 

The funds for additional items/mods etc, just arent there yet. Im having to get this thing pronto-quick,for an immediate/current situation that is on-going.This isnt a casual/toy/sporting purchase with some extra cash laying about. My main needs for this thing will be to purchase it,get it home,load it,and be ready to rock immediately,If needed.

 

As much as I'd like to eventually trick it out with all the goodies,and have it comply with obscure/rarely-enforced laws,there simply is not the time or funding to do so right now.Once the tactical situation has calmed down-one way or the other-I'll start saving up for goodies for her. Other funds are having to be expended on beefing up my property,installing camera/alarm/security systems,and improving lighting on the grounds. I dont/wont have the luxury of waiting 1/2 hour or more for cops to respond to anything going on out here. Once rounds start flying,I'm on my own against up to as many as 6 known persons-all armed-who've shown zero reluctance to open fire,and to whom the cops have shown zero interest in arresting until someone dies because of them.....dogs dont seem to count,as far as LE are concerned...

 

Mine is unconverted as well, I have yet to have a problem with any buckshot in 2 3/4" and 3" varieties...

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

Call me crazy, but I like the fact that birdshot creates lots of tiny wounds and doesn't overpenetrate. Only problem with that is that your S12 will most likely not be dependable with birdshot without some work done to it.

 

OP,

Do you live alone? If you use buck or slugs, be mindful of what is behind the wall you are firing towards. Buck, slugs, and most pistol rounds don't slow down much when going through sheetrock walls. I would sooner use a .223 AR with 55gr bullets for HD than a shotgun with buck or slugs. At least it is a light projectile that slows fairly easy when going through barriers.

Just a thought....

Good luck and be safe.

[tonyhunt 15]

Personally I use 2 3/4 with #4 buck.

House full of family + I'm not too worried about being "undergunned" using that in semi auto shotgun.

But my first choice would be my 1911 with CTC grips and Critical defense

[309MI 4]

Ty all. No, I have my wife here,as well, and another dog. House is thick brick. But Im not planning to shoot out THRU the brick. Indoors,Ill most likely use the .45 ,but will depend on what's at hand at the moment. My other main concern is when Im out in the yard,etc. The shooting that has already taken place,was from off-property INTO my yard. So, Im as concerned about engagements of that sort,as much as I am inside the home.

[tonyhunt 15]

Someone was already shooting at your house?

Oops, didn't fully read all of the posts

Edited September 9, 2010 by KillDozer

[kdbutler 563]

Call me crazy, but I like the fact that birdshot creates lots of tiny wounds and doesn't overpenetrate.

 

No offense evlblkwpnz, as I genuinely enjoy your postings. However, the reasons you mentioned in favor of birdshot are exactly the reasons why I would be hesitant to use or recommend it to others for HD. I mean, we are talking first and foremost about our defensive ammo penetrating a bad guy, right?

 

While I've never had to shoot an intruder (thankfully), the idea of using a load that may (or may not) penetrate an intruder enough to stop him from getting to me, or a member of my family doesn't sound like a great idea. There's a reason why deer hunters use buckshot, and bird hunters use birdshot. All LEOs I've fielded this question to have recommended buck (usually 00, or #4) also. So I load 00 buck.

 

Granted, I wouldn't want #8 shot going off in my face; but I'd bet that buckshot will have a greater effect on a fully-dressed, possbily large, amped-up intruder. Plus, what to do after the shot, if the intruder survives? Could I be sued if I've maimed him? Gruesome stuff to consider, but our litigious society forces us to think about these things.

 

@Paraclete: Sorry about the loss of your dog. Anyone who hurts an animal like that is a soulless coward. Stay safe, and good luck in your HD weapon/ammo search.

Edited September 9, 2010 by Kevin in Texas

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

Dude, someone shot your dog?

 

Oh God, the things I'd do..

 

I'll just put it this way, potassium sulfate and sugar...

[morgan34 2]

the point is you don't want bullets leaving your home. Ar 15 with soft points won't leave your home. Stray bullets, not good in neighborhoods.

[Frosty 9]

If you are in your house you will have to shoot through things such as Furniture, Wood chairs, Cabinets, Seat cushions, Sheet rock/lumber, you name it. That scum ball is not going to just stand their and let you hit them. They will Dodge, Hide, and Move to avoid you. A Clear shot will not be there.

 

You will have to penetrate objects to get to them. The heavier the better. The LEO guys have to shoot through stuff like this all the time if they have to.

 

00 Buck or #4 Buck = more projectiles on the target

 

Next time you go shooting take some lumber or scrap sheet rock and see the difference bird shot vs. buck shot vs. .223 soft nose will achieve. Shoot through them to hit something behind them. Just like it would be in your own home. See which one holds together and penetrates and strikes the target BEHIND your scrap barrier that you set up. Your family is depending on this.....not the cool factor at the range. This is serious. Do the test I suggested and decide for yourself.

 

 

Frosty

Edited September 9, 2010 by Frosty

[raidersfan_5544 57]

"Call me crazy, but I like the fact that birdshot creates lots of tiny wounds and doesn't overpenetrate. Only problem with that is that your S12 will most likely not be dependable with birdshot without some work done to it."

 

Crazy

[tonyhunt 15]

"Call me crazy, but I like the fact that birdshot creates lots of tiny wounds and doesn't overpenetrate. Only problem with that is that your S12 will most likely not be dependable with birdshot without some work done to it."

 

Crazy

 

I'd still say #4 buck is a good compromise, not going to fly through more than one wall, has a good density of pellets, and won't just make them angry.

I don't think birdshot would do to well against heavy clothing. I'm sure he would be bleeding a lot, but I'm positive he would bleed faster when his organs are turned to soup

[grommit666 24]

Whenever I have ammo penetration questions, I consult the Box o' Truth. For this case you may be interested in (http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm) but there's lots of good info there. Birdshot is a bad choice for stopping people. It would make an ugly shallow wound, but wouldn't be likely to kill a man.

[wired 27]

I know a guy who was shot at 20 or so feet with 7 1/2 shot out of a benelli 12 gauge. Hunting accident . Shot by his dad unfortunately. Not quite a shaddow wound. He's blind in one eye and lost an arm.

[mikegraffam 11]

 

The funds for additional items/mods etc, just arent there yet. Im having to get this thing pronto-quick,for an immediate/current situation that is on-going.This isnt a casual/toy/sporting purchase with some extra cash laying about. My main needs for this thing will be to purchase it,get it home,load it,and be ready to rock immediately,If needed.

 

Then you don't want an S12. You want a pump gun. This is important if you really feel your life may be in danger. Get an 8-shot (7+1 in the tube) Mossberg. It is less likely to fail out of the box than an autoloader. Same goes for a lever-action carbine.

 

As much as I love my S12, I can't recommend it in a situation like yours. S12's can be picky with ammo and they can be unreliable until broken in after a whole bunch of shooting. Sometimes you get a bum gun and need to send it out for warranty work. This goes for nearly ANY autoloader, period.

 

It is unfortunate that you are in a position that requires you trust your life to an untrusted gun. I don't care if you were thinking of getting a $1600 Benelli M-series, for god's sake don't make it an autoloader. You may not live to regret it.

 

I would trust my life to MY S12. In the few months I've had it, I've put about 1000 shells through it and the only failures were with bird shot.. but early on, in the first 2-300 rounds or so of buckshot, there were a few cycles that were borderline. It worked, but I could feel the gun was struggling, just a bit, to cycle. With slightly stiffer springs, those would have been failures.

 

This whole situation underscores the need for preparedness. You can't trust a gun that hasn't been PROVEN to be trustworthy. You need a gun BEFORE you NEED a gun. You need to break it in, to practice with it, and to prove - beyond any shadow of a doubt, that it will be there when called upon.

[evlblkwpnz 3,418]

I have a wife, 3 kids, and my oldest has friends over nearly every day. There is a bedroom at all four corners of the home and it isn't uncommon for someone to be sleeping in one of the living rooms. Two bedrooms share a wall with an entry point. Large handgun loads, buck, and slugs are just something I don't feel comfortable with in my situation. The opportunity for the perfect shot (or shots) will most likely not be there and I may have to fire toward a bedroom or be shot. I have already lost a child due to a non-firearms accident. It wasn't much fun coffin shopping for my 7 year old daughter and I tend to avoid things that could lead to seeing another child, their friend, or my wife in a coffin. To say the experience was profound would be a gross understatement. I couldn't imagine what it would feel like if I were responsible for a child or loved one's death.... and do not want to. All of our needs and choices are different.... for different reasons. Use your best judgement and be willing to live out the rest of your life with the potential results. Just a thought....

Edited September 9, 2010 by evlblkwpnz

[The_Caged_Bird 474]

I have a wife, 3 kids, and my oldest has friends over nearly every day. There is a bedroom at all four corners of the home and it isn't uncommon for someone to be sleeping in one of the living rooms. Two bedrooms share a wall with an entry point. Large handgun loads, buck, and slugs are just something I don't feel comfortable with in my situation. The opportunity for the perfect shot (or shots) will most likely not be there and I may have to fire toward a bedroom or be shot. I have already lost a child due to a non-firearms accident. It wasn't much fun coffin shopping for my 7 year old daughter and I tend to avoid things that could lead to seeing another child, their friend, or my wife in a coffin. To say the experience was profound would be a gross understatement. I couldn't imagine what it would feel like if I were responsible for a child or loved one's death.... and do not want to. All of our needs and choices are different.... for different reasons. Use your best judgement and be willing to live out the rest of your life with the potential results. Just a thought....

 

Wow, very wise.

 

Sorry to hear about your daughter

[309MI 4]

Good points,all.Ty,everyone. Addressed some things on the other post on this-so wont repeat that here.

As for rounds/types of rounds. .223/5.56mm for HD, the one concern I have with that is of ricochet. Those things,being so easy to deflect, are ricochet nightmares.

Any of you with military/combat experience has seen what I speak of-especially whenever tracer is used. Those rounds tend to go zinging off in every crazy direction downrange-whether they hit soft sand,paved surfaces,glass, you name it. I'd be concerned, in the extreme,about over-penetrated or missed shots striking something downrange,and either zinging back to strike a friendly, or myself.

 

By way of documented proof of this-for civilians- consider the LA bank robbery case from a few yrs back. Those heavily-armed/and heavily body-armored robbers were finally taken down,not with direct hits,but by rounds from an AR-15 that were "skipped" under a car they were hiding behind,and up into the robber.Sort of a combat version of a bank-shot at the pool table. While a nifty,trick-it came about because the firing officer had observed how badly his stray rounds were ricocheting all over the place. He was quick on his feet,so to speak,and figured out a way to make use of that defect. But that's not something I'd care to try for myself indoors,or in an urban environment with friendlies near at hand.

[The Night Armory 0]

For home defense I would use #4 or #6 shot. This is what the police departments in my area use in their shotguns on patrol. 00 buck while great, will go through your wall, especially dry wall, your neighbor's house, and possibly your neighbor too.

[Paulyski 2,227]

Those heavily-armed/and heavily body-armored robbers were finally taken down,not with direct hits,but by rounds from an AR-15 that were "skipped" under a car they were hiding behind,and up into the robber.Sort of a combat version of a bank-shot at the pool table.

"Douchebag in the left shirt pocket, off the bank!"

 

But seriously; If you go with the S-12, make sure you have good ports, if not, port them out quick & the S-12 will be very dependable for you. 3 @ 3/32", or 4 @ 5/64" will get it hummin' nicely.

So if you shoot 200 rounds of high brass (no need for it to be expensive buckshot for the gun's break-in rounds) & then it doesn't fire federal bulk pack on setting 2, address the ports, or have them addressed. If you don't compromise & get lazy, it will be dependable.

If you dick the dog, you'll chase your tail until you finally break down & fix the damn ports anyhow.

 

A problem that many have is that their guns are borderline undergassed & they tell themselves "it's just not too dependable", rather than just suck it up & do the port work.

 

I'd recommend Russian 8 round mags from rusmilitary, or your factory 5 for combat.

Second choice, I'd recommend AGP-10s. Sand the insides with 240 grit really well to keep things running smooth, tighten the screws, then back them off 1/2 rotation & you're money.

 

I would avoid the Surefire 12 rounder if you ever plan on using 3" magnum.

Surefire admits that they don't lift 3" rounds dependably. 12 rounds of 3" is too heavy for them.

 

Avoid promag stick mags all together if your life may depend on the gun.

Sorry ProMag guys, but you know damn well that they're the bottom stick mag out there aside from looks.... But they ARE pretty.

 

Also, it doesn't take too long to polish the rails on the gun to help the action be smoother.

Same with just polishing the bottom of the carrier, hammerface & bottom of the bolt, if you need to do it quick & don't feel comfortable profiling them.

 

I'll leave 922r concerns to you. We have a special subforum for this topic that you can read.

 

Good luck, & you're right. Don't run.

Stand your ground.

[raidersfan_5544 57]

If you want to use buckshot but over penetration is a problem. Maybe try some Remington disintegrator buckshot(frangible buck). I haven't tried any yet but I just picked some up and I will be testing it along side with regular buck agianst hard targets. Should be fun testing.

[jbw00d28 4]

If you want to use buckshot but over penetration is a problem. Maybe try some Remington disintegrator buckshot(frangible buck). I haven't tried any yet but I just picked some up and I will be testing it along side with regular buck agianst hard targets. Should be fun testing.

 

 

I have tried the frangible buck actually..Stuff works pretty good. Excellent damage, falls apart in a wall and keeps a nice and tight shot pattern. For home defense I use the following loads in my saiga. I keep my 5 rd mags loaded with 2 #6 shot and 3 00 buck with the birdshot being first. My MD 20 has a mixture of 00 buck and slugs. My thinking is this...If someone enters my home our engagement will occur at around 10 to15 feet max. I am not really one to just pump rounds through the wall in the hopes that I hit something unless they are stationary at a corner or hanging out around a doorway (pieing a corner or doorway is your friend btw). Anyway, the #6 will absolutely kill them or remove a limb at that range.Say what you want about bird loads, but I have seen them punch holes clean through sheet metal, leave 1/2 inch craters in 2 x 4s and tear apart animals. At that range the shot is concentrated enough to do ALOT of damage, while not heavy enough to penetrate into the next room and take out a family member. At anyrate, if the first 2 doesn't get them, then I know for a fact the last 3 will at 00. 00 is simply devastating...The problem is that if I miss or score a partial hit, some rounds will easily penetrate furniture, every wall in my house and could possibly cause a fatality outside of my home. Having witnessed first hand the results of friendly fire fatalities in the military I could not imagine being responsible for one myself.

 

As for the saiga 12 as a home defense weapon....I would not trust my life to a new one that hasn't been EXTENSIVELY field tested. Your best bet would be a 7 rd mossberg pump action or even a double barrel breech loader. Those are extremely simple weapons and give you alot of reliability right out of the box. Pistols and AR15 rifles or rifles period are no-no's in my book. Better than nothing, but too high velocity...taking out your family or your neighbors because some retard decided to break in would be a terrible thing.

 

If you simply must have a heavier load it would be wise to train your family members to either assemble in a set place in your home that will serve as a no fire zone. May sound crazy, but if something ever happens here my wife knows exactly where to go and I know exactly where not to shoot.

[309MI 4]

Fully understand what you are saying,War. And I;ll see if my shop has the frangible loads.

As for the safe place within the home-great in theory-but it depends on entirely too many things,depending on the interior layout of one's home.I have such a place designated,and the wife knows to go there and hunker down with the phone,etc.

But- It all depends on where you are in the home at the time the bad guys come in,and where they come in from. What if the two of you happen to be at opposite ends of the home? Say one of you in the living room or kitchen,and the other in a bedroom or bathroom-if the bad guy penetrates at some point between the 2 of you-and/or between one or both of you,and that safe room,then what?

As much as we can all try to prepare,and train/equip ourselves and our home for such situations,there are simply too many variables to not have some flexibility.And you and I both know about Murphy,and his feelings about your Plans A,B,and C.

 

Also,as much as the concerns for INSIDE the home, Im having to take into consideration for measures OUTSIDE on the grounds. To include being fired upon from off-property,when one is out in the open,and exposed.Something which is sometimes unavoidable. (and the very situation that kicked all of this off for me).Sometimes you may find yourself unable to get to reasonable cover or concealment,or into the home itself.(hence the .45 for carry when out and about in the yard,etc.)