IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 I NEED to get a safe to protect some investments... I want a FIREPROOF safe. ( The one ( pair ) I am looking at is 1200 degrees for an hour ) I want it about 20-25 long-gun sized. I am thinking to purchase TWO safes of this size, as opposed to ONE 40-50 gun sized one. ( I am thinking 2 @ $750.00 is better pricing than one at $1800.00+, plus I have more options for WHERE in the house to put them. ) Do I want electronic combo? do I want tumbler combo? Do I need certain specs over others?? Any brands BETTER than others... and by better I mean MARKEDLY BETTER, or PROVEN better... not just "I like this name brand over that name brand!!" I am also curious... and I am not sure if anyone has ever had to deal with it... HOW do you open an electronically locked safe after a fire, and the electronics are all melted away?!?!?!? Likewise... will a tumbler type still function properly after a fire??? I am not concerned with SPEED of access... This is really a true "need of a safe to protect against theft" sort of need. I realize if someone wants in bad enough and given enough time they will get in... but for an average homeowner... I need a safe that will fit my house and budget. Any info is appreciated!!! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Don't waste your money on the electronic crap. Tumblers are all you need. If you are serious about security/fire deterrent don't mess around. Buy a Browning or a Liberty. The safes that look nice that you see for 30 to 50 percent less than the 2 brands I named can be defeated by 2 men and a crow bar in less than 2 minutes. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Klassy Kalashnikov 1,393 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) A few tips to make sure your safe is actually safe: Make sure you are buying a safe and not an RSC (Residential Security Cabinet) they are a lot thinner. Weight - get a heavy safe, it can't hurt to put a couple 45lb barbell plates in there too for the hell of it. Bolting - A safe simply standing in a room is weaker than it could be, make sure you either bolt it to the floor or the studs in the wall. Large bolts with big ass washers are always a plus. Position - store it in a corner, with the part that opens (the opposite side of the hinge) butted up against the wall. Doing this makes it damn near impossible to get any leverage if a thief decides to try and get in with a pry-bar. Also if you are going to put the safe in a basement, consider maybe making a cinder block "wall" to cover the one exposed side and the roof with basically only the door side showing. Your tools - What kind of tools do you have in the house and how are they stored? You could have the ultimate safe and have it positioned the right way, but if you have angle grinders and oxy aceltylene torches in the garage laying around and you're gone for a week on vacation, kiss your guns goodbye. So it is important to also be aware of how and where your tools are stored in the event of a cold break in. Like you said no safe is impenetrable with enough time and tools. I used to work for an armored company and a crew get into our poured concrete vault with a 2ft thick steel door and 1/4" steel plates lining the entire interior when something went wrong with the locks and it would not open. Not a robbery a work crew. But if you make the safe take long enough to get into that it is not worth the effort, it will be safe. You can definitely get a regular household safe to require upwards of several hours to break into. Edited January 23, 2011 by Classy Kalashnikov 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Honestly, I am hopeful I NEVER have to worry about a break in... but I would like to make it less than easy if someone does... They can steal all the tv's and stereo equipment they want... and maybe some of the ammo and components if they feel the need... I just dont want the guns to be an easy grab... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Boba Debt 350 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) Smiths Security Safes in Ohio can make a safe any way you want it. I bought a raw safe that was 7' tall by 3' wide by 2' deep for $1300 shipped. I had to paint it and build the interior sections but it allowed me to customize the exact way I wanted it. Edited January 23, 2011 by Boba Debt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sumsky 115 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) I will tell you this from experience. I own a Liberty and would not trade it for anything else, had it for 15 years. When I first moved into my home I came home one day and wondered why my windows and front door was open. When I walked up and into my home the TV was gone along with all the other appliances, food and drinks were left on the table and they took a shit and did not flush. My Liberty safe was on its side in my bedroom where they turned it over. When it fell it broke the frame of my bed. They took off the Large Wheel that you use to open the Door, and they knocked off the Combination Knob. They could not get in, I had broken tools chisels you nmae it all over my room. I had to call a locksmith to open it, and it took him over four hours to drill and tumble the inner mechanism to open the door, plus he had to call Liberty to find out how to open it. I now have it bolted down to the Floor so if they want it they will have to pull it out with a four wheeler through my house wall. Edited January 23, 2011 by Sumsky 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
YOT 3,743 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 I bought one for theft protection. I opted not to get the fire proof because it's really not. I didn't feel 1/2 hour (which is the MOST common rating) would make a damn bit of difference if my house was fully ablaze, given where I live. I also opted for tumbler combination because I don't have faith in electronic devices. Mechanical locks can be repaired much easier and less costly, too. After a LOT of shopping I ended up with a Stack-On because it was on sale in the price range I wanted to pay. Comparison wise, I would honestly say that it is of good to better quality than others in the price bracket because of hinge strength and placement, and bolt/lug size. I actually think most of the safes are manufactured at the same factory for different name brand suppliers (like washing machines and TV's). Of course, I had to consider cost vs. need so I figured that because the break-ins and burglaries in my area were for quick access grabs, that a good quality, heavy duty safe was adequate for my needs without going out of my budget for a very serious high dollar vault. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
yakdung 2,926 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 I have seen this done in the video and it isn't a pretty sight. The breach was done to a very popular safe from a popular safe company. Don't buy cheap. Yakdung Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 23, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Yeah, I watched that video... A couple things I noted, however... the door itself was only about a half inch thick at the front... and the safe didnt seem to have a very high number of locking lugs. I would doubt they would have had it QUITE so easy if it was bolted to the wall and floor, though... AND... as mentioned above... if it was mounted in a corner where they could not get that sort of leverage on the bars... Still... Given enough time and tools anyone can get into any safe... I just dont want to make it easy for the common "hey... lets break into that place, and see if they got anything valuable we can take" type of burglar. As opposed to the "I know this guys got a fortune in firearms... we need the torches, drills, grinders, and cutting implements... we have the generator in the truck, and I KNOW they will be gone for the whole weekend, so we got LOTS of time to make it happen" sort of criminal... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
rob-cubed 74 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Lots of good advice already. Statistically, chances are you have more chance of losing your guns to fire than theft. Safes are either built to be fire-resistant or secure--not both, regardless of what the sales brochure says. If you are worried about theft, the extra investment in fireproofing won't be worth the money you spend. Usually this "protection" is simply a few sheets of drywall and an expanding seal around the door. This might buy your guns a few minutes in a mild fire, but won't protect them much past that--and when you open the safe you will still have a rusty mess to deal with. Regardless of what you choose, get one bigger than you think you need! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bigj480 203 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Just a quick note; most gun safes are not UL rated for fire, they use Sheetrock in a manner that it's not approved for and assume that the Sheetrock's fire rating still applies but it doesn't. They just stack it until it get's to a number they thing will sound good. I'm not sure if any are rated for theft protection/tampering. I bought a 55x28x20 fire and tamper rated safe that weighs 1200lbs and doesn't use Sheetrock in it's construction for $700 used off of craigslist. There are some nice gun safes out there, but the average gun safe just isn't as good as the average UL rated safe. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
patriot 7,197 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 The vid was a nice how-to on B&E. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TonyRumore 1,332 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 You need a safe with a Relocker. Some insurance companies have a clause that states they will not cover the left, if your safe does not have one. If you remove the back panel from the door and examine the lock attachment, you'll find the lock is just welded or bolted to the back side of the door plate. If that lock is pushed rearward, in towards the interior, it will disengage the lock allowing the handle to turn and the locking bayonets can then be retracted. To breach a safe that does not have a Relocker, you simply use a broom to hold a big ass punch right on the center of the dial, then your buddy hits it with a sledge hammer. The safe in the video could have been breached in under 10 seconds that way. With a Relocker in place, even if the lock is pushed out of engagment, a secondary locking device is activated blocking retraction of the bayonets. Then to open the safe after that has happened, you need to know where to drill through the face of the safe, insert a tool, and manually move the relocking device out of the way. Usually, two holes are drilled. One for the borescope so you can see what you are doing and the other for the manipulation tool. Bottom line, you're not going to stop a professional that knows the lock/bayonet layout of your particular safe. That's why you have insurance. I am by no means an expert in safe cracking, but I have watched the pro's open safes that would not respond to their owners attempts to open them. It happened at the USSA training facility when I was there teaching Marines how to fix AK's. That was a bit of a setback, since the guns were in the vault and not in the classroom. Tony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Kliegl 304 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 Isn't the preferred marine way to open something a lot of C4? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sumsky 115 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 (edited) You need a safe with a Relocker. Some insurance companies have a clause that states they will not cover the left, if your safe does not have one. If you remove the back panel from the door and examine the lock attachment, you'll find the lock is just welded or bolted to the back side of the door plate. If that lock is pushed rearward, in towards the interior, it will disengage the lock allowing the handle to turn and the locking bayonets can then be retracted. To breach a safe that does not have a Relocker, you simply use a broom to hold a big ass punch right on the center of the dial, then your buddy hits it with a sledge hammer. The safe in the video could have been breached in under 10 seconds that way. With a Relocker in place, even if the lock is pushed out of engagment, a secondary locking device is activated blocking retraction of the bayonets. Then to open the safe after that has happened, you need to know where to drill through the face of the safe, insert a tool, and manually move the relocking device out of the way. Usually, two holes are drilled. One for the borescope so you can see what you are doing and the other for the manipulation tool. Bottom line, you're not going to stop a professional that knows the lock/bayonet layout of your particular safe. That's why you have insurance. I am by no means an expert in safe cracking, but I have watched the pro's open safes that would not respond to their owners attempts to open them. It happened at the USSA training facility when I was there teaching Marines how to fix AK's. That was a bit of a setback, since the guns were in the vault and not in the classroom. Tony Tony is 200% correct. This is what the locksmith had to do to open my safe when he got to my house. Plus he had to call Liberty to know exactly where to drill and what to do. I asked the locksmith after he drilled and got the door open, now what is going to stop the next thieves from re drilling into the same hole you just made and tripping the lock to get in, he said they install a ball bearing where they drill to block the hole no one will be able to drill through. Edited January 23, 2011 by Sumsky Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vicarious_Lee 84 Posted January 23, 2011 Report Share Posted January 23, 2011 The guy I know with the biggest (and most full-auto) collection of anyone I know swears by Fort Knox: http://www.ftknox.com/ They've got a lot of different model lines. I've also heard that your safe should ideally be against an exterior wall, since there is no fire rating if your burning house collapses onto it. But that's all I know. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
eva-u 2 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Rhino Metals make awesome affordable safe's. Their quality for the buck is second to none. I believe they wholesale thru Costco. I am very impressed with mine. 2.5 hour fire rating 1400 LBS $1700.00 out the door. They are built in Meridian ID. Made in the USA ! Has re-lockers/ Hardened Ball bearing drill plate. Door 3/8 or 5/16 plate. I personally looked at 8 name brands before I bought this one. One warning is their lower price base unit is made in China It goes by the name of "BIG Horn". Rhinos are domestically made though. Make sure you have some burly friends to get it into the house. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfanatic 221 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) This site has some good info for 1st time buyers. http://www.6mmbr.com/gunsafes.html Edited January 24, 2011 by Gun Fanatic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ruffian72 548 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Might be more than you're looking for. "Patriot Safe Company" Got 2, 2hr rated. 1st in 98 and 2nd in 06. Got combo lock, with 2 key bypass lock. Last has a digital also, just never use. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MT Predator 2,294 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Classy has some great points on anchoring it down and position! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
getitat 609 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Hello Couple of things....Look for a deep safe. Many manufacturers skimp on the depth of their enclosures, you don't really notice it 'till you start to fill it up. I would not only bolt it down against a wall and in a corner, but also try and make access to the third side very awkward and time-consuming to access. The sides and back are actually pretty thin material, and can be cut with a battery-operated grinder, especially the LI-ion types. I have two safes set together, one with just primers and ammo, with nearly immovable stuff alongside the only open side. But maybe the most important thing is don't make it look like a safe. Put it somewhere out of sight, or build something around it that just looks non-attention grabbing. Nobody will break into what they don't know is there. Go big. A good safe with external hinges will likely have a removable door (just lift the open door off the hinges) That will cut the weight in half allowing better portability, if you need to go up or down stairs. For level surfaces, use lengths of 3/4" iron pipe to act as rollers underneath the safe and just keep moving them as needed. Be careful, that sucker will get away from you. I prefer to do my own delivery and installations....Just paranoid, I guess..... JMHO.... -guido Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scarbrough68289 76 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 I don't have a safe yet. Right now I do have all my guns minus the pistols I keep around the house in my office. Before I moved in the previous home owner converted the small 8 x 12 porch into a small "bedroom". There are 2 small octagon windows so only way in or out is through the door which swings into the living room and still has security bars and 2 double cylinder deadbolt locks. I replaced the old hinges with non removable pin hinges so the door can't be removed from inside the house and kicking in the door from inside the house would be next to impossible. The house was built in the 30's and has some thick fir jambs reinforced with Door Jamb Armor. I will probably get a safe soon to store my guns in case of fire. They're safe from theft for the most part. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Gunfanatic 221 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BuffetDestroyer 969 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Make sure you get one with locking bars in more than two directions (preferably 4 directions - up,down, left & right). Cheaper safes will only have the cross bolts opposite the hinges. +1 on the redundancy locks (usually done with glass plates). Replacement Warranties are usually a bunch of B.S. because if you have homeowners or renters insurance that pays in the case of a break-in or fire, you won't get a dime from the safe company. Check instead how their customer service is if the lock breaks or you lose the combo or it transfers to a new owner (in the event of your passing, your heirs will eventually have to deal with this). Locks don't typically carry long-term warranties like the safe itself will, but there should be some good provisions in place if the combo is lost, or the safe changes hands. Digital locks are super convenient and easy to use, but dial locks don't run out of batteries or fry out in electrical storms. You are usually unable to get into your safe for at least a few weeks if your electronic lock fries (including keypad/buttons stopping working) or the battery dies. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 24, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 The only problem with the Insurance company... and the MAIN REASON I am buying a safe, is they WILL NOT COVER FIREARMS without a SEPARATE FIREARMS RIDER policy.. Anyone want to guess the COST of said firearms policy?? How about the tune of $20.00 / Thousand of value / year. And in fact, I think it is HIGHER than that... Thats the shitty part... It is not even WORTH the money to insure my firearms through my homeowners insurance... I may have to shop around!!! once I tell them I am leaving, they may give me some better rates. Two years of insurance would buy one decent gunsafe... I wouldnt hold my breath, though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
waltham_41 52 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 (edited) I hear you about the insurance Indy, State Farm wants an arm and a leg for a rider for guns, and then wants me to get them all appraised for value as part of the procedure. The NRA ins would be well over $200 a year for me, and I dont know if it would be worth it or not. I got a Centurion by Liberty C30 safe.... a cheap safe by any standards, $700 for a 30 long gun safe. But it sure will slow down any amateur thieves, and god forbid, its more fire protection than the cheap Stack On metal cabinets I had all of my firearms and coins in until recently. I wish I had the coin to go out and buy a $2500 fireproof security cabinet, but all of us here live in different financial situations, and we all have to do what is the best we can do by our means. Edited January 25, 2011 by waltham_41 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
1mile50 102 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Share Posted January 24, 2011 Get a bigger safe than you think you need. I would suggest a Liberty Lincoln 50, rated for 1200 @ 90 mins. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
GeorgiaPD 408 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Indy, I have couple of things for you to consider about your safe placement. If at all possible, place the safe against an outside wall of your house and on concrete if at all possible. Either bolt it to the floor for concrete or long lag screws into the joists for a sub-floor application (as Classy previously stated). The reason for the outside wall location is simple. You can have all of the fire protection that you want, but it does not do much good if the safe is placed in the center of the room that has a basement or large/deep crawl space. When a house burns, the heaviest thing on the floor (safe) will fall into the crawl space first and then all of the other burning material/embers fall on top of it. This is also the last thing that gets put out by the fire department when there is a fire. The fire ratings are fine if you want them, but I guarantee that you safe will exceed 1200 degrees for an extended period of time in the event of a totally engulfed residence. Go for more security and less fire protection if you have a choice in the matter. If the safe is on concrete, then the chances of it falling through the floor and into the crawl space are reduced. Outside wall placement helps with this as well. I received these tips from several local fire and battalion chiefs whom also collect guns. Just some thoughts for you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
IndyArms 10,186 Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Along the outside wall is already the game plan. Also, the room has no basement under it and a meager 2' crawlspace... so if it fell through, it would not fall far... LOL I already planned to bolt it to the floor, with long 1/8th inch thick flat stock strips betweeen bolts. not just washers. The more I read, and hear from everyone... The more inclined I am getting to just buying two smaller safes, and being done with it... Hell, if a lincoln 50 was within my budget I wouldnt even have to ASK about a safe... I would just drop 3 thousand on a good one and be done. I still appreciate all the info so far... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Stansplace 414 Posted January 25, 2011 Report Share Posted January 25, 2011 Along the outside wall is already the game plan. Also, the room has no basement under it and a meager 2' crawlspace... so if it fell through, it would not fall far... LOL I already planned to bolt it to the floor, with long 1/8th inch thick flat stock strips betweeen bolts. not just washers. The more I read, and hear from everyone... The more inclined I am getting to just buying two smaller safes, and being done with it... Hell, if a lincoln 50 was within my budget I wouldnt even have to ASK about a safe... I would just drop 3 thousand on a good one and be done. I still appreciate all the info so far... Some of the Brownings have cheaper outside coatings (flat powder coat vs shiny and smooth) than others but still have all the goodies where it counts, good rating, heavy, lots of bolts, manual dial, and relockers. A 52 gun can be had for $1400 and weighs 900 pounds empty. Some of them are a lot of safe for the money, you just have to do your research on them. As far as moving a safe that size, don't mess with it, rent a Uhaul and set the ramp right inside your house/garage use 3 men, a refrigerator dolly, and some 3/4" dowels as wide as the safe. A buddy of mine did his this way and all it cost him extra was the daily rental on the truck and dolly. Oh, and beer for the help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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