If there may only be one...

[TexasTech 32]

My most fun gun to shoot = Saiga 12 (I've never shot a particular firearm as much as I have my S12)

 

Most versatile for survival/small game (around here) = 12 ga shotgun

 

Best weapon for home defense = 12 ga shotgun (with flamethrower coming in second. Just don't burn house down.) LOL

 

Most concealable for carrying (though I'm not sure NJ allows it) = Pistol (I like 45, but 40 & 9mm are ok too)

 

Good 24 hour guardian that can protect wife, if need be = Large dog

 

 

I'm not sure what the law is in regards to "castle doctrine" there, but I wouldn't want to use a less than lethal round in a HD situation under most circumstances. Yeah, they hurt (trust me). They can still kill at indoor distances (chest or head shot). But if you're in fear for your life, or that of another (the only time you're justified in firing IMO), then you're justified in killing. If you have a LTL round loaded and someone jumps out with a machette, clearly intent on killing you, I would rather have some buckshot to stop them than rubber pellets.

 

That's just my opinion though.

 

 

(edit to add) One thing a lot of people may not think about much is that if you DO have to use a firearm for HD, it will be secured and taken into evidence by the Police afterwards. Assuming you're justified, you SHOULD eventually get it back, but in the mean time, your wife and family will not be able to use it to defend themselves if the perp you shot has friends that want to come back for revenge. It's very possible you will be in custody for a little while too, if there's any concern you may have overstepped your legal boundaries in regard to shooting somebody. So you may not be there to help defend them. A second firearm is definitely advised.

 

Assuming the PD, Prosecuter and other local officials are anti gun, using a tricked out Saiga 12 for HD (or any other "assault weapon" for that matter) may not play out well if anything has to go to court. It sucks, but that's the unfortunate reality some of us have to deal with. You can assume any liberal paper in the area will say something like "Homeowner GUNS DOWN suspected burglar with assault weapon". Yes, it's unfair and biased, but it's very possible.

 

So you MAY want to go with a less "aggressive" looking (and cheaper) Rem 870 or Mossy 500 pump. They'll kill bad guys just as dead and shouldn't paint you as a "survivalist gun nut", should you ever have to use it, God forbid.

 

 

I dont know what state you live in but here in Texas if anyone comes into your house and you fear for your life you do not have to retreat anymore. It doesnt matter if you use BB gun or .50 Desert Eagle you may dump the whole magazine into the intruder. Now if you pop an intruder in the back as he running off your lawn you will be in some shit. Matter of fact in Houston, a neighbor drilled a robber breaking into his neighbor house three times with a shotty and he was never prosecuted. Once the Castle Doctrine took effect a robber doesnt even have to be armed if they break into your property deadly force is authorized. Those that live in Dallas probably remember the guy who left a bar on Lower Greenville drunk, high and beat on a residence across the street at 2:00am in the morning. The home owner put a round through the door killing the drunk. The drunk was not armed and no charges was filed. I may get flamed here but the more firepower you have the better off you will be.

Edited February 9, 2011 by Jackal

[christopher jasso 1]

Yes here in houston if they're entering your your home uninvited they're basically asking to be dead. That being said mossberg maverick and a glock 30.

[meauxcg 0]

If the choice I have is ONLY one gun its going to be a shotgun. It can do more than all of the others combined. You can not shoot small game with a rifle and you cant shoot deer with a hand gun (for practical purposes).

 

A shot gun with the new sabot slugs is effective easily to 100-150 yards (rifle range), close in defense and inside your home protecting your family is a shotgun.

 

If you truly need a defensive firearm that you can kill small game in the backyard or a deer if the SHTF as well as a person then a shotgun. Bird shot, buckshot and slugs cover all bases.

 

Now as much as I love Saiga 12's for personal protection, family defense and SHTF get a pump. I would go with either the mossy 500 or the Rem 870. Both have options for pistol and full stock as well as short/long/slug combination in the same box.

 

Either one should be $500.00 then that leaves some for ammo, case, light and sling and maybe enough to sneak in a police trade in Glock 40 at $350.00

 

That is the one gun that can do it all.

[spenceman 5]

so... to sum up.... There may be more than one.

 

The wife will forgive you if you come home with 2-3 guns, ammo, flowers, and a sheepish grin.

[RRice 34]

^{If your talking about home defense why and the hell would you want a pistol?? If I'm protecting my family, I dont wanna worry about shooting a human trying to harm me or my family in the middle of night covered in darkness with a single bullet. THe advantage to the S-12 is you can put a lot lead down range to neutralize the threat and not worry about accuracy. What happens if you are facing multiple guns from multiple intruders and the police are chewing on Donuts at 7-eleven drinking coffee. Personally I want as much firepower as I can have to eliminate that threat and protect whats mine (my family and property). The only logical answer is a shotgun and the only logical shotgun is the S-12. Why but a shotgun that will only hold 3 rounds for the same money?? What if Tyrone and his posse are all strapped and they decide to invade your residence?? Would you want 3 rounds or 20?? As for malfunctions thats your job to get those worked out before you have to lock and load.}

 

No offense but that is all nonsense.I have a few saigas all of which are pretty decked out including a Tromix S17.I am proficient with them and run several thousand rounds a year through them including using them for multigun.Want to know what I use for home protection?A Remington 870 with a wilson tube extension,bead sight and a 210 lumen Surefire LED forend.The fact of that matter is that the load out between the two guns isn't the difference between 3 and 20 it is more like 7 rounds for the pump and 8-10 for the Saiga(anything larger than that is too big and unwieldy to be clearing a house with.

 

The Saiga is too much to deal with in a dark high stress situation unless you know how to run it and are prepared to clear malfunctions.That said,I say look for a police trade in Remington 870(they are $200ish in my neck of the woods)put a magazine extension on it and use that for home defense and with the money left over buy a handgun of your choice and enough ammo to feed them in case of emergency.

[danklab 57]

I keep a pistol gripped Mossberg 500 beside the bed for home protection.. 5 rounds of 00 buck in the tube.

It's a fair compromise between being compact and powerful, and pretty easy to hit what you're shooting at indoor distances.

 

For a handgun.. something in .45. I'd go Glock

[csmw 98]

Assuming the PD, Prosecuter and other local officials are anti gun, using a tricked out Saiga 12 for HD (or any other "assault weapon" for that matter) may not play out well if anything has to go to court.

 

That is an EXCELLENT point!

Keep in mind, a "good shooting" to you, may not be considered a good shooting by the police/prosecuter.

If they go after you, they will try and CRUSH you...you will be in for the ride of your life...and that weapon will be presented to the jury.

The worse it looks, the worse it is for you. Juries are usually idiots, I mean they couldn't even figure out how to get out of jury duty.

 

fwiw, if I was on ajury and the prosecution brought in a tricked out Saiga w/ all kinds of crap hanging off of it, and a 20rd mag shoved in it....I would be kinda like 'wtf?' too. Something like that makes you kind of look like you were waiting for a chance to light someone up.

 

Keep it simple.

[TexasTech 32]

No disrespect but there is no law that requires any homeowner to own a specific gun for HD. If you choose to protect yourself with a Barrett M82 or a .22 rifle that is your decision. The DA and PD investigate to determine if deadly force is authorized per the Castle Doctrine. If you fall within those guidelines it doesnt matter what gun you protect yourself and property. In short I will use my S-12 for protection because that is why I bought it.

[csmw 98]

No disrespect but there is no law that requires any homeowner to own a specific gun for HD.

 

Respectfully, you are right.

But TX is really leniant.

 

When you get into the more PC lo-cals, anything can happen.

And in a panic, you may do something that doesn't exactly comply. Adreneline can cause bad decisions to happen, and once done, there is no going back. Where I live, the prosecuters would lay waste to you, if there was any descrepency in the shooting. And the last thing I would want is some kind of "killing machine" used as evidence to try to make me look like a blood-thirsty gun-nut.

 

Personally, the last thing I would ever want to do is harm someone, regardless of if they broke into my home. If I was trying to hold them at gunpoint for the cops, and they decided to run out my front door, then they would be gone I guess.

Only way I would unload on someone was if they pulled a gun, or charged at me.

My goal would be to only stop the threat, not try to kill the guy (unless I REALLY had to).

 

I run less-lethal in my 870. Most would think it is a bad decision, but I feel better thinking that even if I had to shoot, they have a better chance of surviving.

My goal would be to stop the threat with doing as little damage as possible. And less than lethal will level anyone at close range, so first impact would end the threat.

 

fwiw, If I had a family to protect, which I don't, my views on ammo and and how aggressively I stopped the threat would surely be different.

Edited February 10, 2011 by C&S Metall-Werkes

[DogMan 2,343]

Assuming the PD, Prosecuter and other local officials are anti gun, using a tricked out Saiga 12 for HD (or any other "assault weapon" for that matter) may not play out well if anything has to go to court.

 

That is an EXCELLENT point!

Keep in mind, a "good shooting" to you, may not be considered a good shooting by the police/prosecuter.

If they go after you, they will try and CRUSH you...you will be in for the ride of your life...and that weapon will be presented to the jury.

The worse it looks, the worse it is for you. Juries are usually idiots, I mean they couldn't even figure out how to get out of jury duty.

 

fwiw, if I was on ajury and the prosecution brought in a tricked out Saiga w/ all kinds of crap hanging off of it, and a 20rd mag shoved in it....I would be kinda like 'wtf?' too. Something like that makes you kind of look like you were waiting for a chance to light someone up.

 

Keep it simple.

 

I disagree. It's either a good shooting or it isn't. And even if there may be some aspect of it that may be in a gray area I seriously doubt if the looks of your weapon are either going to save you or sink you. And even if I'm wrong, I consider it my first obligation to be the one who is alive explaining my actions while the other guy is on a slab, not the other way around. I'll start worrying about what some jury thinks after I accomplish that.

[jclark45 0]

Assuming the PD, Prosecuter and other local officials are anti gun, using a tricked out Saiga 12 for HD (or any other "assault weapon" for that matter) may not play out well if anything has to go to court.

 

That is an EXCELLENT point!

Keep in mind, a "good shooting" to you, may not be considered a good shooting by the police/prosecuter.

If they go after you, they will try and CRUSH you...you will be in for the ride of your life...and that weapon will be presented to the jury.

The worse it looks, the worse it is for you. Juries are usually idiots, I mean they couldn't even figure out how to get out of jury duty.

 

fwiw, if I was on ajury and the prosecution brought in a tricked out Saiga w/ all kinds of crap hanging off of it, and a 20rd mag shoved in it....I would be kinda like 'wtf?' too. Something like that makes you kind of look like you were waiting for a chance to light someone up.

 

Keep it simple.

 

I disagree. It's either a good shooting or it isn't. And even if there may be some aspect of it that may be in a gray area I seriously doubt if the looks of your weapon are either going to save you or sink you. And even if I'm wrong, I consider it my first obligation to be the one who is alive explaining my actions while the other guy is on a slab, not the other way around. I'll start worrying about what some jury thinks after I accomplish that.

 

 

 

If something goes to trial, an anti-gun DA will use anything he can to sink you, and the scary looking gun will be a factor. It shouldn't be, but it will be. Also, the gun will be an issue if the perp or his family sue you--Plaintiff's attorney will likely make more of your gun than most DA's. I just got out of law school with some of the people who will be future DA's and Plaintiff's attorneys (and eventually, future judges), and it frightens the crap out of me to think of dealing with some of them on these issues; their ignorance of guns and hatred of them are on par with the Brady Campaign, but they are in a position to actually make people's lives hell.

 

All of that being said, do what you must to protect your family. My go to is an 870 with extended mag, flashlight, shell carriers, etc. It would make some of these attorneys lose continence, but it is the most reliable thing in the middle of the night. Just have a realistic outlook on what you may be up against in court, learn your local laws, and if you have a choice of guns where either one is a good option, consider the less scary looking one. (e.g. 870 with 8rd mag rather than Saiga with 8rd mag).

 

 

 

P.S. In response to the original question: go for the suggestion of an 870/500, Nagant, and reliable handgun if the wife will go for it. If she won't, then the 870. Love my Saiga to death, but I made sure I had other options covered first (Shotgun, rifle, and carry gun). If you follow this three gun suggestion, you might also consider an AK or AR as a semi-auto carbine before the Saiga. Cover the primary bases, then flesh them out.

[Paulyski 2,227]

^{If your talking about home defense why and the hell would you want a pistol?? If I'm protecting my family, I dont wanna worry about shooting a human trying to harm me or my family in the middle of night covered in darkness with a single bullet. THe advantage to the S-12 is you can put a lot lead down range to neutralize the threat and not worry about accuracy. What happens if you are facing multiple guns from multiple intruders and the police are chewing on Donuts at 7-eleven drinking coffee. Personally I want as much firepower as I can have to eliminate that threat and protect whats mine (my family and property). The only logical answer is a shotgun and the only logical shotgun is the S-12. Why but a shotgun that will only hold 3 rounds for the same money?? What if Tyrone and his posse are all strapped and they decide to invade your residence?? Would you want 3 rounds or 20?? As for malfunctions thats your job to get those worked out before you have to lock and load.}

I can absolutely guarantee you that I can have my P239 or G-17 readied, on target & have 2 rounds fired MUCH quicker than you can grab & manipulate an S-12 from a dead sleep.

 

In close quarters, such as a hallway I can turn around quicker & if someone's on top of me & we tie up, we won't be playing tug-of-war with my pistol like we might if I had a long gun & someone grabbed the barrel & slammed me against a wall before I could train the gun on them.

 

Not to mention, if I had to go outside during a disaster & the blackwater boys & national guard were all over the place.

Go ahead & take a long gun around with you in that scenario & you'll either be shot on sight as a looter/threat, or the firearm will be confiscated.

 

I'll be the non threatening looking guy with a concealed pistol walking by in the distance unmolested as you're face down with someone's knee between your shoulder blades as you're being cuffed for officer safety thank you very much.

[vampire847 9]

mossberg 590a1 should be under 400 and it holds 8+1... and can accept a bayonet>.> so when yer outa ammo itll function as a spear OR club!

[incognito485 26]

The S12 is a great weapon, but I wouldn't choose it for a good self defense weapon. I do love it, but reloading can be a pain and if you have a misfeed or some kind problem where you need to utilize the charging handle, you will probably take ur trigger hand off the weapon to fix the malfunction. If the safety and charging handle were on your trigger hand side, I would say go for it, like an AR-15 setup. However an AR-15 or any rifle in my opinion does not work well in home defense due to the over penetration of the rounds. I would go with a pistol, I prefer .45 or bigger. I have seen too many guys that were shot with a .40 and under that lived, and were able to fight to some degree. I have never had a Sig or a Glock malfunction on me since I've owned one. If you can find one, I would go with a Glock 20 (10mm). There is no greater weapon in a pistol form in my opinion. You have a reliable and powerful handgun that holds 16 rounds. Oh............and invest in some night sights.

[TexasTech 32]

Maybe maybe not that depends on what training you have acquired my friend.

Edited February 10, 2011 by Jackal

[csmw 98]

I have never had a Sig or a Glock malfunction on me since I've owned one.

 

A big +1. I have shot a bizzilion rounds through both (and never cleaned either of them) and never had a malfunction. Those are two guns I would stake my life on. (I don't like cleaning guns ... other than cleaning the gas system on the S-12 and cleaning my 22's, I don't know if I have ever cleaned a gun)

Reliabilty is the most important thing.

 

Compactness/manueverability is number 2, imho.

 

That's why my 870 has a 12" bbl and pistol grip. It's very compact.

If I heard someone in the house, I would probably grab my Sig. If I heard multiple people, I would grab my shotty.

If I was forced to have an 18" shotty for H/D, I would surely put a pistol grip on it. Makes a way smaller package for going down hallways or entering rooms.

 

I don't even own a gun w/ a barrel longer that 12'

 

10mm will fuuuuuuuk you up, LOL

Edited February 10, 2011 by C&S Metall-Werkes

[incognito485 26]

C&S

 

 

I see where you are going with the less than lethal scenario but it is incredibly unsafe. First off you have to understand the mindset of an individual that is entering your residene when YOU ARE STILL IN IT. A vast majority of burglars do their research and will normally make sure that nobody is home prior to entry (IE the old knock on the door trick, then force entry). Now, someone who is performing a home invasion, or someone who is off their meds trying to get into your house has a different mindset. Either A) they have planned it and are ready for you or mentally unstable (drugs, mental problem etc). Both of those scenarios are not good, and these guys are usually going to be armed or arent going to feel much pain when you shoot your bean bag or rock salt on them. I would think that based on that I would owe it to my family to meet or exceed the force that is coming into my home.

[csmw 98]

C&S

 

 

I see where you are going with the less than lethal scenario but it is incredibly unsafe. First off you have to understand the mindset of an individual that is entering your residene when YOU ARE STILL IN IT. A vast majority of burglars do their research and will normally make sure that nobody is home prior to entry (IE the old knock on the door trick, then force entry). Now, someone who is performing a home invasion, or someone who is off their meds trying to get into your house has a different mindset. Either A) they have planned it and are ready for you or mentally unstable (drugs, mental problem etc). Both of those scenarios are not good, and these guys are usually going to be armed or arent going to feel much pain when you shoot your bean bag or rock salt on them. I would think that based on that I would owe it to my family to meet or exceed the force that is coming into my home.

 

Yeah, you are 110% right. Gave me a lot of things to think about!!! You might have changed my mindset too. I'll definately give what you said somemore thought. You had a lot of good info/scenarious.

Thanks for the post and advice

[csmw 98]

AS far as clearing a malfunction on an s-12 when your adreneline is higher than it's ever been in your life, and in the dark as well....good luck. FTF? FTE? In the dark, I think it would be hard to even tell.

 

My brother once saw two eyes on the edge of his pasture at night when he was shining a flashlight looking for his dog. Walked up to it. He wound up 10 feet away from a 100-150 pound cougar lying prone, facing him with some kind of kill it was eating. Thing started aggressively snarling at him. He said he 'locked up' and went dizzy ... said he went temporary deaf too.

I asked him if he could have shot it? Said "no". Said he was so freaked out, he only had partial control of his arms and legs. Said he was literally stumbling backwards away from it.

 

Adreneline/stress can be a funny thing. Can do all kinds of things to you. Unless you are used to being shot at, I think if you were in a gunfight in your home and your gun jammed...even with ample training, I don't think you will clear the jam as fast as you think.

 

If I had a gun jam in that scenario, I'd be like "huh???" LOL. I'd get peppered

[scalilou 2]

2x4 with a big nail thru the end of it

[scalilou 2]

......and a pistol grip mossberg 500

[DogMan 2,343]

AS far as clearing a malfunction on an s-12 when your adreneline is higher than it's ever been in your life, and in the dark as well....good luck. FTF? FTE? In the dark, I think it would be hard to even tell.

 

My brother once saw two eyes on the edge of his pasture at night when he was shining a flashlight looking for his dog. Walked up to it. He wound up 10 feet away from a 100-150 pound cougar lying prone, facing him with some kind of kill it was eating. Thing started aggressively snarling at him. He said he 'locked up' and went dizzy ... said he went temporary deaf too.

I asked him if he could have shot it? Said "no". Said he was so freaked out, he only had partial control of his arms and legs. Said he was literally stumbling backwards away from it.

 

Adreneline/stress can be a funny thing. Can do all kinds of things to you. Unless you are used to being shot at, I think if you were in a gunfight in your home and your gun jammed...even with ample training, I don't think you will clear the jam as fast as you think.

 

If I had a gun jam in that scenario, I'd be like "huh???" LOL. I'd get peppered

 

IMHO:

 

Step 1: Pick the weapon that you feel gives you the best tactical advantage without regard to malfunctions

Step 2: Take said weapon and systematically eliminate all possible causes of malfunctions

Step 3: Regularly test fire for reliability

 

I believe the semi-automatic shotgun gives the best tactical advantage simply because in those high stress situations it involves only aiming and pulling the trigger. In my HD S12 (Tromix S06) I start off with a weapon that is converted by one of the best in the business, then use nothing but the uber-reliable Russian 8 mags, filled with high quality 00 buck. With this package I just don't have malfunctions. I just don't. Inside the house, yes, there are a lot of advantages to a high quality semi-auto pistol. But if I have some elbow room to square off with somebody I want my S12, and if the other guy has a shotgun I want it to be a pump.

[incognito485 26]

C&S you hit just right. In the dark it would be nearly impossible to clear out a malfunction. Also, without a BHO last round mod, how do u know when u fired ur last round? When u pull the trigger and nohing happens? U wont be counting rounds in that situation. And then on a reload u have to make sure the bolt is locked back manually, or by pressing the BHO. Don't get me wrong my S12 is by far my favorite weapon. I just think that the original person that posted this doesnt have any experience with the S12 and it would take alot of training and breaking in to make it effective. So I would lean towards the handgun, semi auto or revolver are both great. Plus it's always good to have a free hand in a cqb style confrontation.

[incognito485 26]

Dogma , I totally agree with u on that. But u do have a tromix. Not exactly bottom Of the barrel. I was assuming that he wanted something cheap and reliable. Tromix s12s are bad ass weapons but u cant just pick one up outta the blue, especially for around 400-500 bucks like in the glock range.

[DogMan 2,343]

Dogma , I totally agree with u on that. But u do have a tromix. Not exactly bottom Of the barrel. I was assuming that he wanted something cheap and reliable. Tromix s12s are bad ass weapons but u cant just pick one up outta the blue, especially for around 400-500 bucks like in the glock range.

 

Yeah, I know. I was mainly addressing C&Ss stance that not being able to clear a malfunction was necessarily a huge problem in home defense that outweighs the advantage of an S12. My only point was that it doesn't have to be. And given the proper attention, I believe almost any S12 can be as reliable as any other, regardless of who built it. I'm not trying to change anybody's mind either, just making a counterpoint.

[csmw 98]

I was assuming that he wanted something cheap and reliable. Tromix s12s are bad ass weapons but u cant just pick one up outta the blue, especially for around 400-500 bucks like in the glock range.

 

Big +1

I wouldn't trust a stock S-12 for anything. I mean how many questions/complaints are on this forum about their factory S-12 not working. I personally don't think they are good guns at all unless they have been modified (bbl throat, port-work, polishing, etc).

 

If I had to trust a modified S-12, I would probably only trust one of Tromix's. I mean, he invented all of the mods and his guns are which all others are compared to.

I have built a lot of 18" and 12" S-12's and they all ran 100% on anything. Even w/ that said, I still wouldn't stake my life on one of them. S-12 aftermarket mag failures aren't unheard of.

 

I'll keep saying it...top-quality handgun or 870. Or both.

Someone mentioned police trade-ins. What a great suggestion! Trade-in 870's and Glocks can be gotten for rock bottom prices. That's the way to go.

Edited February 11, 2011 by C&S Metall-Werkes

[G-30 8]

My vote would be a mossberg 590 and a Glock G-19, can't go wrong with 9 rounds of 12 gauge in a pump.

[nayo 6]

To be honest it sounds like you and your wife are not really prepared to be firearm owners.

Once you buy a firearm you are going to need ammo mags, mag pouchs holsters a good surefire flashlight and dutybelt to hold all that gear, cleaning kit and a safe to prevent anyone for stealing it from you when you are at work. You are way under budget now nevermind the fact that you are still going to need more cash for training, range fees and ammo.

The other thing you have to keep in mind is that you said you need somthing for you and your wife now we have just opened a whole new can of worms, most woman lack the upper body strength to operate and use most semi auto handguns, shotguns and rifles for example every time I hand a shotgun or rife to a woman I hear the same thing "its to heavy!!" or handgun " I cant pull the slide back to load it" and trust me brother when they lack the upper body strength to operate the slide they dont have enough strength to hold the gun up and hold it steady to aim it!! there just is no safe place to hide when you end up with that combination.

There is also the fact that women tend to limp wrist handgun and they have trouble leaning into the long guns it will make the firearm short stroke and start catching empties and your good running semi auto's turns into jam-a-matic piece of junk...

The best advice I could give you is to come up with a better budget if you are serious about becoming shooters or use your $940 to add a alarm system to your house... good luck

[mgconnor13 206]

Get a reputable pump gun. Mossbergs and Remingtons Have tons of stuff available. I prefer the 870 because it breaks down easier. Buy yourself some bulk ammo and go practice. A light on your shotgun is a good investment.

[fauxknight 30]

To be honest it sounds like you and your wife are not really prepared to be firearm owners.

 

The OP didn't list a lot of info regarding his or his wifes familiarity with firearms. Looking though his small number of other posts made before this one he says he already owns one shotgun and one handgun. Your points of training, practice, and ease of use for hom and his wife are all valid, but since he is possibly familiar with and already owns a couple of weapons that might be usable for home defense I would guess he was looking for an excuse to add some more serious, and seriously cool, firepower to his arsenal.

 

More relevant or precise info on thier situation and more visits to this thread from the OP might be able to significantly reduce or redirect the all the conjecturing...then again what fun is the internets without wild conjecturing.